Gone with the stain

[rats60]

Originally Posted by G1911

I don’t necessarily disagree in principle on soaking and don’t soak myself, but it’s certainly not the same thing as what Towle and his heirs do. There are clear differences, soaking is openly seen as acceptable by a majority of hobbyists. Towle’s operation is undeniable alteration and even most who do these things won’t deny it is.

Smoking a joint and selling 50 pounds of cocaine are both drug crimes, but they sure ain’t the same thing. Being able to bucket in the same category doesn’t make them “no different”.

I do not think that soaking is accepted by the majority of the hobby. Otherwise, those that do it would reveal that their cards were soaked. They keep it secret because they know it is wrong, while trying to convince others it isn't. Does the majority of the hobby accept "conserving" or is it just PWCC's customers?

You can say there are different degrees of altering cards, but they are still all altering cards. It is more like the difference between being a heroin dealer and selling prescription opiates. We can agree that what GWTS is doing is wrong, but that doesn't make other forms of card doctoring ok. GWTS started out as removing wax stains from the back of cards and many accepted it and tried to convince the hobby it was ok too.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by rats60

I do not think that soaking is accepted by the majority of the hobby...

I concur. Personally, I view soaking as alteration; it's a form of cleaning the card.

[GasHouseGang]

Originally Posted by Eric72

I concur. Personally, I view soaking as alteration; it's a form of cleaning the card.

I agree, but I think we are actually in the minority. When the topic was discussed in the prewar section of the board it was obvious that it's done all the time, and an accepted part of the hobby. Many of the high-grade prewar cards have been soaked out of scrapbooks that they were glued into back in the early years.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Eric72

I concur. Personally, I view soaking as alteration; it's a form of cleaning the card.

It's fine to have an opinion, but in popular opinion dictates that is isnt cleaning a card. Nor is removing pencil with an eraser.


I guess anything can be used for evil instead of good. Dont hate the conservator hate the game

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

It's fine to have an opinion, but in popular opinion dictates that is isnt cleaning a card. Nor is removing pencil with an eraser.


I guess anything can be used for evil instead of good. Dont hate the conservator hate the game

If removing a pencil mark isn't cleaning a card, what would it be?

[G1911]

I brush detritus off a card with my finger, and if the corner is bent over, I bend it back so it fits into a stack of cards better. I will also scratch dirt off with my finger. Am I a card doctor?

[butchie_t]

Rubbing wax off the front of a card with a nylon, card doctor too?

Because I am guilty as hell of doing that and I STILL sleep at night.

This certainly be taken to an extreme. I just added more. Carry on..

Butch

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by G1911

I brush detritus off a card with my finger, and if the corner is bent over, I bend it back so it fits into a stack of cards better. I will also scratch dirt off with my finger. Am I a card doctor?

You may be, but not because of that.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[Jim65]

I always found it strange that some damaged antiques/collectibles gain value by being restored but restoring a baseball card is considered fraud.

I wouldn't want a restored card but I can see how others might not care, if the restoration is not detectable.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by rats60

I do not think that soaking is accepted by the majority of the hobby. Otherwise, those that do it would reveal that their cards were soaked. They keep it secret because they know it is wrong, while trying to convince others it isn't. Does the majority of the hobby accept "conserving" or is it just PWCC's customers?

You can say there are different degrees of altering cards, but they are still all altering cards. It is more like the difference between being a heroin dealer and selling prescription opiates. We can agree that what GWTS is doing is wrong, but that doesn't make other forms of card doctoring ok. GWTS started out as removing wax stains from the back of cards and many accepted it and tried to convince the hobby it was ok too.

I don't think this is true. People openly post about soaking all the time; there are threads here detailing how to do it (you won't find that for alterations that unanimously considered as such). It is not "kept secret" precisely because few seriously object to it.

PWCC's "conservation" arguments are a separate issue; they are trying to make altering okay, that's not an argument that X isn't really altering.

Yes, I can say there are different degrees of alteration because that is obviously true. Soaking as alteration is not a consensus opinion.

I said I don't really disagree that soaking is an alteration, and said already I am not for it and do not it. When did I argue some forms of altering are okay? Can you point me to this?

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by rats60

I do not think that soaking is accepted by the majority of the hobby. Otherwise, those that do it would reveal that their cards were soaked. They keep it secret because they know it is wrong,

No, it's because it doesn't matter. Its water

[71buc]

A few years ago I acquired a number of common low number 52 Topps. The original owner had written his name on them in ballpoint. I sent three to GWTS to see what their work was like. I figured I had nothing to lose. The results were mixed and honestly far from impressive. One card was mutilated and the others had loss of gloss and discoloration of the borders. Dick was very friendly and proud of his process. He offered to do some more for me without charge because of the destroyed card. If I recall it was a Luke Easter. I declined. I gave or sold the cards to another board member who wanted examples of GWTS’s work so he could use them to identify cards that had been altered when searching for 52 Topps. I am honestly surprised they get through TPGs. I’m a neophyte when it comes to grading. Nonetheless it was pretty easy to look at the cards I sent them and identify that they were obviously altered.

[JollyElm]

837. High Horseshit
Someone who feels his views on any subject falling within the parameters of the card collecting world are the only ‘rightful’ sentiments regarding the matter.


Come on now, soaking is fine. It's only water, not a chemical alteration (here's where some know-it-all is probably going to say, "Actually, water is a chemical.").

Like other people, I use it to get the occasional schmutz off of a card here and there, and said card is in the same shape as it was before it took a dip. Nothing changed except the grime sitting on top of the gloss has been removed.