Mitchell, Cin. & other E90-1 rarities .....

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Posted By: Scott Gross

I know this subject comes up now and again, but I wanted to put some specifics out there for discussion:

First off, "Mitchell, Cin." is known as the "Wagner of Caramels." Which is a big statement, with the burst in caramel card popularity. My question is, is there an estimated number of these cards ??? Whereas there are an estimated 60 Wagners, are there an estimated X Mitchells ?? (that's a striaght up quantitaive question).

Secondly, how would you rank the e90-1 rarities .... ?? Your top 5, top 10, where the "gaps" are, etc. Purely personal opinion, any way you want to list them (include or exclude Jackson, as you wish, but please don't turn this into a rariry vs. scarcity discussion).

Here's my shot, based on my limited (<2 yr, 105/120) experience:

1 - Mitchell, Cin.
gap
2 - Duffy
2 - Speaker
2 - Walsh
gap
3 - Clarke, Pit.
3 - Graham
3 - Stahl
3 - Sweeney, Bos.
gap
4 - Joss, pitch
4 - Karger
4 - Keeler, throw
gap
5 - Lajoie
5 - Overall
5 - Wagner, throw
5 - Young, throw

That might get some juices flowing on a very dull, gray Monday afternoon ..........
............

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Posted By: jay behrens

check out Pete C's site. It has great info on this set. I've never persued, so I have to pass on giving info on the set.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Bob Shannon

Scott, Your top five are dead on

1. Mitchell
2. Duffy
3. Speaker
4. Walsh
5. Clarke-Pitt's

6. Keeler-Red Portrait
7. Wagner-Throwing
8. Graham
9. Sweeney-Bos.
10. Stahl

11.Keeler-Throwing
12. Joss-Pitching
13. Wagner-Throwing
14. Young-Throwing
15. Karger

Other late additions to my set include-
Overall
McClean
Dougherty
Gibson-Back View
Shean
Upp

I need to mention that the last common? I needed was Leach-Throwing.

Bob

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Scott

I completed this set back in the mid-'90s. And, there is no doubt
that this Mitchell card is much tougher than any other card in this
set. And, as you guys have duly noted there are some really tough
cards. Bill Sweeney and Graham were some of the last cards I acquired
to complete this set. The tough HOFers are more available than these
3 cards.

Why Mitchell is so darn hard to find is a mystery that never has been
fully explained. You ask how many are out there.....well, that is very
difficult to determine. However, as rare as this card is, it isn't as rare
as the T206 Wagner or Plank cards.

The problem we have here in trying to compare this card's scarcity is....
(a) The E90-1 cards are no where near as popular as the T206 cards....and
(b) No where near as many E90-1 cards have survived as have T206 cards.

Perhaps, there is an expert E90-1 collector out there that some answers
to these questions.

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Posted By: cmoking

It is interesting how the PSA/SGC pop reports differ so much from the general concensus of some collectors. There are clearly some problems with those pop reports, but I wouldn't have guessed the numbers would be so far different.

I care about VG or better cards...and for the most part, I collect them in SGC/PSA holders. I have ranked the E90 cards based on toughness of cards in VG or higher SGC/PSA holders...and here is the list. The numbers are from a few months ago, pop reports are different now...for example there is now a PSA 5 Gray whereas there wasn't a few months back when I compiled these numbers. So these are not up-to-date.

1. Gray
1. Shean
3. Dougherty
3. McLean (this is why his cards have been sky-high in auctions)
5. Bemis
5. Richie
5. Siegle
8. Bliss, Hall, Lobert, McInnes, Unglaub and Walsh
14 Honus Wagner Throwing

Mitchell is 35th, having 8 cards graded VG or higher by PSA and SGC combined. It's possible some of those cards are actually the same card, as there are people who cross over from one holder to another, as well as those trying to get a bump in grade. That's one problem with the pop reports. But I still think it is usefull...and I find the difference here (Mitchell not being in the top 10) interesting compared to collector's viewpoints.

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Posted By: Richard

King -

I think pop reports are not a good tool to judge the scarcity of a card for many reasons, one of which is the fact that sometimes people get only the best cards in a set graded.

More graded cobbs, wagners, youngs, mattys, etc in a caramel set than doyles and beschers does not mean that there are more of them actually available. It means that those are just the most popular cards. I think the same arguement may apply to the mitchell card.

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Posted By: Bob

Glad to see the David Shean card recognized by someone else as such a tough card. It was the last one I needed to complete my set (minus Joe Jax). I searched for 5 years for it.
As far as POP numbers go, my entire set is unslabbed if that helps. It and the T205, T206 and T207 sets are the only sets I kept unslabbed, for aesthetic (display) as well as economic reasons...

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Posted By: cmoking

Richard - you have a good point, and I agree with that. One needs to separate out the superstars, the lower tier HOFers, and the commons and look at them differently when it comes to pop reports. There are also other problems with pop reports, so I'm not saying they are the end all of all answers, just saying they can be useful.

In the E90-1 set, Cobb is the "easiest" card in VG+ in SGC/PSA holders. That makes sense since he is the most popular player. But the Wagner throwing card is the 14th toughest. I think that shows how tough that card is. You would think he'd be somewhere between #100 and #120 in the 120 card set if the number of cards were uniform.

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Posted By: cmoking

Tbob - when said you compiled a raw set and was looking for the Shean for 5 years. Did you have minimum grade requirements for your set? Meaning, did you find a Poor or Fair Shean in those years, but passed due to the condition or eye-appeal of the card? Or was it 5 years before you saw one regardless of the condition?

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

is that the Keeler Red Portrait is much more difficult
then that of the Clarke Pitts.

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Posted By: Bob

5 years to find one in ANY condition. I lucked out and found a vgex one.

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Posted By: Andrew Parks

So how tough is the Speaker? When you say it's hard - is it hard compared to other cards like E102 Doyle bat, Miller Fld, etc...? Or is it hard just compared to cards in its own set?