W600 pricing question: can SCD be right?

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Posted By: Peter 

I just got my 2002 SCD Standard Catalog and was thumbing through it last night. I was delighted to see a W600 checklist. My last copy did not have one. I have to say that their pricing structure really confused me.

I see that they list Young at $6,000 (all prices are for NM condition)and Mathewson (uniform) at only $900. How does this make any sense. While I do not think that any W600's are common, I do see Young more often virtually any other Hall of Famer. On the other hand, I rarely see Mathewson offered in either of his poses. It seems as though Cobb is even rarer and he is only listed at $1,200 while Plank, whom I consider a "common" Hall of Famer lists for $1,450. Ed Delahanty, a very scarce and desirable HOF recently sold in auction for about $5,000 is listed at $650, while a common lists for $450. How can Young be worth 5X a Cobb, 7X a Mathewson and 9X a Delahanty?

Also, it looks as though they always list the street clothes variety for more than the uniform. Maybe I am in the minority, but I would take a card picturing a player in his team uniform any day over one that pictured him in street clothes.

What are your thoughts?

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Posted By: jay behrens

I always prefer pics of players in uniform.

As for the prices, remember this mantra "It's only a guide, not etched in stone." Now, if you find someone willing to sell to you for those prices, get right on it. I've always been leery of price guides anyway becuase too many people invovled with publication have a vested interest in what happens to prices. What I can see happening here, which I've seen before, is a set gets listed for teh first time and prices are low. This gives dealers a chance to buy them from unsuspecting collectos and the general public, then the next time the guide comes out, a more realistic price listed and the dealers make a bundle.

Jay- always looking for evil in everything

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Posted By: leon

I have asked Mr.Lemke, via email, if what they publish for prices is always up to snuff...so to speak...I have questioned a few things like Just So commons for $620.00 in vg, a Clarkson for $840.00, a Burkett in vg for $720.00 etc.. in the 2002 SCD.....I believe he responded by saying give him some examples of higher dollar sales, they would verify them, and make necessary changes as warranted. ..I could give him about 3-4 examples but have not....regards all

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

Not to defend Mr. Lemke, but I think that since this is the first 'pass' at the list, at least they got them in there. The prices are completely inaccurate for the most part though. Having a large amount of them, I can speak from experience on purchase price for them.

In the last Hunt's auction, the Mathewson and Young went for basically the same thing (in EXMT/NRMT) condition--about $4100/$4300 (before the 15% premium). Lajoie went for $2000+ and Wagner (uniform) went for $3600. All STRONG prices. The average commons in the lots of 5-6 went at about $600 each. The lot of 5 hofers brought about $1300 each (with the premium).

Terry Knouse at Tik and Tik without question has the largest amount of these FOR SALE, albeit at quite a lofty price. At last year's National he had about 60-70 of them. The average 'commons' were $700 and average hofers were $2K to $3K.

The next-to-last Lipset auction had quite a few from the Don McPherson collection that averaged around $400 or so but they were in VGEX to EX condition. In the last 3-4 years they have gone from $100-$200 each in decent condition to $600-$700.

Large lots of them in Mastronet have brought $12-$18K. I won a lot of 39 from a few auctions back that were all over the board in terms of condition. They are tough in ANY condition. As for individual cards, speaking of Cobb, Mastronet had a VG to VGEX Cobb about 3-4 auctions ago. It bid well over $4000 to $4500.

So.....the prices are definitely off--at least in REAL terms of what they've been selling for. Now.....of course, I'm biased because I have quite a few of them and would like to see them valued accurately for valuation purposes, but artificially low so I can buy them cheap (although that isn't possible anymore).

I don't think Mathewson is particularly tough. From watching pretty much all the auctions out there, I see many more Mathewson's than Cy Young. Wagner seems to be quite available as well. I've had 3 different Wagners. There are two versions of the uniformed Wagner. One reads John Wagner and the other John "Honus" Wagner. I've seen only two of the Wagners in suit pose versus probably a dozen or more of the uniformed Wagners.

Much like Old Judge cabinets, the consumer could order the cabinets they wanted from a list printed on a flyer put into the magazine. Since Sporting Life was in Philly (I believe), I believe that Philadelphia and Pittsburgh players seem to be heavily printed as do most of the Hall of Famers. I've not seen but a couple of Cobbs. The Mastronet recent one and the one pictured in the Copeland Collection catalog of 1991. That had a lot of approximatly 70 with 59 different Hall of famer poses with a presale estimate of $100K. Didn't sell.

Anyway, Jerry Spillman has done the most work on checklisting them and has a nice program he'll sell you for $5.00. He can be reached on ebay at userid W600.

ALWAYS BUYING AND TRADING FOR ONES I NEED TOO......

shameless plug #207.....have two up for auction on ebay under 'autograf'

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Posted By: Peter

Tom, thanks for your insights. I am by no means a W600 expert and I appreciate an advanced collector's opinions. For some reason, I have seen quite a few Young's over the years and virtually no Mathewson's, Cobb's or Delahanty's. Do you have nice examples of each of these in your collection? How many do you have?

That lot that did not originally sell in the Copeland Collection looks like a pretty good deal at this point in time. Do you have any idea who has it?

I know that it has not been checklisted, but has anyone ever heard of a Walter Johnson?

Lastly, the Standard Catalog describes W600's as having a black and white portrait mounted on heavy cardboard mounts. Are they actually true cabinet cards- a photo affixed to a mount- or are they just thick, oversized cards- all in one piece.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

to get Lemke to change something, usually. EVEYONE has told him that there is no Joe Jackson in the E-254 set, only the E-270 (Tin Top) Colgans. Fritsch published a list--no, it was Lipset, of E-254s that have been listed for 30 years that don't exist. Many HOFers in the plain Colgans (E254) just don't exist, incase you were wondering why you never saw them.

Finally, Mark Macrae, who found a Walter Johnson Tin Top several years ago got him to put it in.

But it's nice to see the changes he DOES make. Like the Obak premiums prices and checklist.

Lemke calls the pretty generic die-cuts from the 1880s "The Artistic Series" and lists them for $200 a piece. Lipset says they were printed in Germany (as were Scrapps). Price is a bit high.

ENOUGH.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

In the absence of a new VCBC, I've been reading some of the old ones. Really great stuff...

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Posted By: Tom

I don't have Cobb but I do have Mathewson, Delehanty, two different Wagners (suit and uni) and many more hall of famers. I have a total of about 128 of the cabinets. Condition varies WIDELY but overall, they're mostly in about EX condition. Unfortunately, tougher cabinets like Delehanty, Cy Young, Joe Kelley, Ned Hanlon are the ones in worse condition.

Walter Johnson didn't start pitching until 1907 and by 1910 (supposed date of the cabinets final run) he had logged 57 victories. He is not on the checklist that was inserted into the magazine in 1908/1909 that I have and I would imagine that the cabinets were more popular in the 1902-1907/1908 range and maybe began to dwindle in popularity so maybe that's why he isn't in there. Like much of this stuff......no on really knows!

As for the cabinets, the description isn't really the best. I don't think they're photos adhered but lithographed onto the cardboard/paper.

An advanced W600 collector knowledgeable about the Copeland collection said they'd been broken up and absorbed into the hobby in smaller lots.

I'd like to have a Cobb...........but, alas, it'll be a while...

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Posted By: Bob Lemke

Hello, All: The reason the Young is priced as it is in the 2002 book is that an example sold at auction just prior to presstime. Most of the other pricing on W600 was based on what little verifiable data was available when the listing was assembled (it is, by the way, largely the work of Jerry Spillman -- the list, not the prices (with which he also has major disagreements). You'll see many of the top-name Hall of Famers updated when the new book is released, as well as common prices, most likely. The reason the street clothes varieties are valued more highly is that they were only produced for a year or two when the series began. Many of the uniform portraits were iseeud and re-issued for the entire run of the series. Any knowledgeable input on ANY pricing in the "big book" is always wecome for consideration. You can reach me at the listed e-mail.