About soaking cards

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Posted By: Dan KOteles

you are an achieved educator.

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Posted By: Bob Pomilla

"Brooklyn. We have our own language."

As in the famous example: Hurt hoit (Hoyt hurt).

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Posted By: Max Weder

Barry

You stated: "the NYC dinner thread is still the Rolls Royce of all Net54 threads; it has reached mythic proportions, like Dimaggio's hitting streak or Wilt's 100 point game- it's simply untouchable."

Didn't both the Moraine thread and the Bonds thread hit 350+? Or perhaps again we're talking about quality, rather than quantity...

Max,

Noting that Wilt spent his summers in Vancouver, no doubt adding to his other record.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Max- I was measuring it in terms of looniness. Threads that go into triple digits usually involve a controversial topic. For something as benign as a dinner get-together to end like it did was the most bizarre thread we ever had.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

The EPDG.....thread has 362 posts and there is not a single "looney" post (to use your adjective)
in it. It consists of meaningful info (for us T206 "nuts") and many surveys in which many Forum
members participated in.

Also, there was a 100+ post Thread on the E90-1 set, in which a lot of useful info was shared by
many. It too, was devoid of any "looney" posts.

We can be civil with each other if we stick to the Topic of BB cards....the art or challenge of col-
lecting these Vintage cards....and, it really captures the interest and imagination of many.

T-Rex TED

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Posted By: barrysloate

Ted- fair point. Not all long threads involve fighting, but many do.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Here is a very interesting non-technical site with information on preservation of paper items:

http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/about/conservation/resources/faq/#mold2

The main issues with paper are light, pollution and moisture that falls outside normal ambient ranges due to the acidic reaction they trigger. Paper conservators soak, clean and dry paper items all the time; I doubt that museums would do it if it was not possible to do safely.

On a more general note, I find it interesting that nearly every thread about card preservation, restoration and the like quickly degenerates into a fight over whether the collector of slabbed 7-8-9-10 cards has more on the ball than a collector of unslabbed cards. These arguments over whose kung fu is mightier don't go anywhere, so CUT IT OUT!!! I also find it interesting that the debate on the actual point of this post coalesces around the question of what the slabbing companies do or don't do and what they can detect or not detect. It appears that a large number of collectors have ceded personal responsibility for their collecting decisions to the slabbing companies. For those collectors that may be the right decision and I understand why they would fiercely defend their chosen methodology for valuing and assessing their collections. However, what I want to point out is that not everyone agrees with the slabbing companies' underlying assumptions as to what constitutes an acceptable card, and that in the spirit of discussion, we as a group should not be so quick to simply adopt wholesale the underlying assumptions of the slabbing companies. I have long maintained that conservation principles from the art world should be applied to cards.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I agree with Adam wholeheartedly. You can remove cards from an album without looking over your shoulder to see if PSA or SGC approves.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

The problem that I have with adopting conservation principles from the art world to the card hobby is that in the art world, in a lot of cases, you're dealing with a one-of-a-kind item. In the card hobby, you're dealing with (usually) one of many examples of a card, where their value relative to one another is based on condition.

So not knowing much about art, I would imagine that a Van Gogh is a Van Gogh, and it's the only one. And part of the importance of owning it involves preserving it in such a way that it will last a long time, and be subject to environmental conditions that are beneficial to the paper, the paint, etc. It was painted, and once it was painted, it's complete. Should it get smoke damage from a fire, or someone spill ketchup or beer or whatever on it, it needs to be restored, otherwise it will be lost to history with no remaining copies available.

Cards, on the other hand, were mass produced and mostly given to children. My T206 Frank Chance is worth less than a nicer version of the same card, because the nicer version was ostensibly better preserved over the last 100 years or so. But there are probably thousands of these floating around; this is not a Van Gogh.

Should I pay $100 for my VG copy, then go out and spend $500 on a NMT copy, only to find that the NMT copy was once as ratty as my VG but has been stretched and trimmed, with color and gloss added to the card to make it nice and spiffy, then the reality is that the VG copy has stood the test of time better. The $500 investment becomes a sham, because the $400 difference between the two is based, essentially, on the deception of the alterer.

That being said, I can't make the leap and say that I feel that stretching, trimming, adding color and reglossing is the same as wetting a piece of paper in order to get a card out of a scrapbook intact, or wetting the back of a card to get gunk or glue off it. To me, there is very little difference between wiping dirt off a card with my finger and wiping dirt off a wet card with a Q-tip.

I've told this story before: years ago I won two 1965 Topps Willie McCovey cards in an auction lot. They were both beautiful cards, but one of them had a glop of chocolate on the front of it, about the diameter of a nickel. One day, while shuffling through my cards, a little chunk of the chocolate fell off. I stopped for a second, then I kinda rubbed the front of the card with my thumb. All the chocolate popped right off the card, in about two seconds. I wiped it with the sleeve from my shirt, and it looked good as new. Now it's an SGC 88, and a fixture in my HOF collection. The other one I bought, which had no chocolate on it, was an SGC 84 that I sold. Should I feel guilty about rubbing off the chocolate? Most people say "no". So what's the difference, then, if I use water to accomplish the same thing?



And no, I did not eat the chocolate.

-Al

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Posted By: peter chao

Hey Guys,

I didn't know there was this much expertise on this board on the topic of card soaking. Maybe you guys should start a new thread called Card Doctors Anonymous. Laugh out loud.

Peter

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Posted By: barrysloate

But Al- I will repeat the same thing I have been saying throughout this thread: what if you simply prefer to take the cards out because you don't choose to have them in a scrapbook? I am not advocating trimming, pressing, dry cleaning, simonizing, or any other nefarious practice. One might simply prefer to have them loose rather than glued in. It's no more complicated than that. The issue seems to be that someone might try to sneak them past the grading service and get the cards encapsulated. That's a separate issue. Not everybody likes their cards glued onto pages. Removing them is a time tested practice. It's no big deal.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Barry, in the middle of my verbosity, I said that I didn't have a problem with it, either. Sometimes my words trip over one another in their rush to get out of my brain and thus become more difficult to understand.

I guess I probably have between 60 and 70 T206s, and very few of them are graded. I've taken paper off the back of a few, and I've cleaned gunk off a few more. They're mostly not Cobbs, Mattys, and Youngs; they're Schleis, Reulbachs and Elberfelds. I just think they look nicer when they're clean, and when I can read the back. It has nothing whatsoever to do with "getting them past" a grading company.

I submit cards for grading sometimes; I "prep" them by putting them in Card Savers. I'm generally not submitting cards to get the highest possible grade, I'm submitting them to get the most ACCURATE grade. Most of the time I'm already happy with the card, and I want to get it into a slab for the purpose of uniformity. I allow myself one exception to this - 1938 Goudey - where I'm actually building a higher-grade set. Aside from that set, the number means very little to me if I'm happy with the way the card looks. If I buy a card and it has paper on it - like a recent T206 Cy Young I bought - I'll soak the paper off it. The Young I'm referring to won't grade any higher without the paper, I don't think, but I'll be able to read the back. That's all.

-Al

Edited to add "mostly".

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Posted By: David Vargha

Nothing new to add . . . I just wanted to see if could get the last post on this thread.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Yeah, maybe the last post at 6:24 pm.

Now how can we carefully segue into a discussion about dinner in Manhattan? It's all that this thread needs to push it over the top!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jeff- it's quite easy. First, ask each New Yorker who wants to attend to list his five favorite restaurants. Then from that group of seventy different, all we have to do is get everybody to agree on one of them. Shouldn't take more than 5-10 minutes.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

1. del posto
2. four seasons
3. morimoto's
4. arturo's
5. tu ve bein

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Posted By: warshawlaw

there aren't 5 good restaurants to pick from

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Barry, I'm feeling a lot of pressure regarding this request for 5 restaurants. I'm thinking you're really jamming this down my throat. Next thing you'll ask me to consider a weekend for this dinner. You NYers are all the same!

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Posted By: Griffins

<<<we'd have so much easier of a time in LA
December 11 2006, 8:28 PM

there aren't 5 good restaurants to pick from >>

Adam-
That's because you're on the wrong side of the hill- drive 15 minutes south!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Yes Jeff, we've come full circle.

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Posted By: Judson Hamlin

Barry, your sarcasm is dripping through my computer screen... but if it helps hijack the thread:

1. Grocery
2. The burger place in the Parker Meridien
3. The Old Homestead
4. Puglia's
5. Solera
5a. Otto's Luncheonette (if it's still there)

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Posted By: Mike

I just returned home from New York over the weekend. An excellent place for y'all to go is to Accapella on Chambers Street, pricey and sort of small, but excellent Northern Italian food.
Mike

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Barry, based on the past few posts, we are very, very close to melding the NY dinner thread with the soaking thread. If this is accomplished, I'm afraid the universe might blow up.

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Posted By: leon

Can we have backbone for dinner?

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Let's all go to Grey's Papaya for a hot dog and a banana smoothie. Best restaurant in the city, as far as I'm concerned.

-Al

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Posted By: MVSNYC

...here is the official post where we merge the two threads...

let's pick a restaurant in NYC and each bring a common T206 beater which has just been ripped out of an album, and have the waiter bring us pellegrino...and...you guessed it...

we'll have a "soaking party" in NYC!!!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Leon, the backbone is the PSA 5 part of the cow. We will only accept PSA 8 and up parts of the animal.

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Posted By: DMcD

Any truth to the rumour that Bonds uses steroids?

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Posted By: Bob Pomilla

"each bring a common T206 beater"

MVSNYC: Why shove T206's down our throats?? Why not T205's or T207's? I say we take a vote ;^) (amateurish attempt at smiley face).

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Posted By: Max Weder

And of course, "soaking" was a way to get an out in the Massachusetts game, which of course did not find favor in the 19th baseball wars http://www.baseball-almanac.com/ruletown.shtml



"Basetenders (infielders) and scouts (outfielders) recorded outs by plugging or soaking runners — a term used to describe hitting the runner (tagging them did not count) with the ball."

Max

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Posted By: JK

Its awfully presumptuous of you to think that we will just hop on a plane and come to New York for a dinner. How about a little consideration for the rest of us who arent privileged enough to reside in the NY. You can make it up by arranging for a dinner in each state.

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Posted By: Jerry Hrechka

My passion is NonSports. If you want to build PSA Sets, the real challenge is not in just opening your checkbook and buying cards that have been already graded. Find the cards raw and submitt them. Nothing sweeter than scoring a top graded card. Here are just a few of my submissions:
1. HOW #66 - PSA6 - Sub #567517 - Pop. 1/2 with none higher
2. HOW #288 - PSA5 - Sub #437547 - Pop. 1/5 with none higher
3. Uncle Sam #39 - PSA7 - Sub # 580002 - Pop. 1/1 with none higher
4. Uncle Sam #95 - PSA8 - " " " " " "
5. WIA Airplanes #14 - PSA7 - Sub #4375425 Pop. 1/1 with none higher.

The Zip on all is 12754.
My suggestion to everyone is submit the cards yourself. Find them raw, grade them and then allow the Grading Cos. the privigle agreeing with your judgement. Then you won't have to worry about trimming, pressing, altering or dry cleaning.

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Posted By: Bob

I created this monster of a thread when I asked about the removal of a foreign object from the back of a card I had just purchased. I had no idea of the firestorm it would cause. I doubt if many will even read this as they probably gave up on the thread a long time ago. I just want to say one thing: I soaked one card to remove the foreign object which did not exist when the card was produced. I am not aware of any other cards in my collection which have been soaked or altered, but then again I do not own any PSA 8s or 9s or SGC 88s or 92s in prewar cards. If I did, I would then own cards I knew had probably been soaked or altered. I own cards like an M116 Walter Johnson which looks exmt but has notebook paper on the back and was so slabbed by me and got a horrible grade. Such is the reality of things.
I feel like anyone who slings any muddy aspersions at me for soaking a Zeenut or arrogantly claims to be more true to the spirit of the hobby is, well, an idiot. Sorry, that's my feeling. I just can't get over the fact that if you collect only high grade cards, and bless your hearts for doing so, you are somehow a "better hobbyist." Bull hockey! If you collect only high grade cards you are collecting many cards which have in the past been soaked, stretched, laser cut or altered in some manner. If you collect cards in vg or less, the chances are very good your cards have NOT been altered by trimming, stretching, laser cutting, etc. So who is the "purist" and who is not?

<I have said that before on here--I believe it to be true--the low-to-mid grade collector is becoming less and less important to the hobby in my judgment.>

Jim, we have never met and neither of us knows each other or anything about each other. If you want to spout off about your opinions, that is definitely your right. But when you utter something which I think is utter nonsense, something which would have hobby pioneers like Frank Nagy, Buck Barker, etc. spinning in their graves, I feel have I a right to disagree. Long after the collectors or investors in slabbed high grade "commodities" have tired of the market and disposed of their cards, the collectors of cards who are thrilled to own a piece of history, even if in poor, fair, good or very good condition (or even excellent) will still be there collecting.
Jim, when you make a statement like he above, you lose all credibility with me.

Oh by the way, the attitudes expressed in this post by both sides of the argument have convinced me that if the situation arises again, I'd do the same thing. I would NEVER trim, re-color, stretch, spoon or otherwise alter a card but if a card comes to me like the Zeenut with paper stuck to the back. I'll soak it and you know what, I won't lose a minute of sleep.
Just my 2 cents from Vegas where the wife and I ar spending our 35th anniversary together...

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Posted By: steve f

Congrats to Mrs T and yourself. Have fun in Lost Wages, you rascal.

PS; Glad this thread is a has been.

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Posted By: John S

Congrats Bob...I think most of us agree with your sentiments regarding the hobby. The backbone of the hobby should be the 10-year old buying cards at the local drug store.

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Posted By: WP

I agree with Al, Grays can't be beat. 2 dogs and a papaya $2.50.

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Posted By: Rich Klein

Now I'm wistfully back at 72 and Broadway (or close enough) and can smell the hot dogs. Shoot, I'd take a knish from a street vendor

When I was in college, there was a pizza place 10 blocks (1/2 mile) away from campus which had a 2 slice (HUGE) and a drink for $1.

Man, can we go back to those prices

Rich

P.S. Typing this while I have some OLD CBS-FM MP3's playing on the computer

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Posted By: Richard

I finally carved an hour out of my life that I would never get back to sit down and read this thread.

Two questions, one of which was asked by King before, that I am hoping will be answered:

1) Scott - Which of the t206 planks was altered? how did you detect the alteration? did the crease come back? which auction house was involved? is the card still currently slabbed?

2) Dan - The 1952 Mantle that you glued back together with elmers and was graded a 2, which company graded it? is the gluing together undetectable (must be)?

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Posted By: Greg

Wow, what an interesting thread.

Having preserved or "restored" numerous antique, one of a kind, lithographs over the years through paper conservators, (all of which were very expensive to do I might ad) I'm amazed at how much controversy a little water can stir up.

I've always wondered.... purely from the point of view from how we should preserve 90 year old paper... is sticking a beautiful little antique piece of paper between two slices of cheap plastic and throwing a graded sticker on them "altering" these cards? Seems to me this practice is much more blatant a visual alteration than a little bit of water.

Maybe if grades and the prices that are placed on them weren't so important to the slightest extremes none of this would matter, but, then again, I'm pretty new to cards, having more of history and background in emphera. Rare to me means there are only one or two known to exist, not 10 or 12 out of 600 that have a little sharper corner than the rest.

I'm sure I'm gonna take flak for that comment...oh well.

greg

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Posted By: Max Weder

As Greg has done, I have engaged paper conservators to restore paper (in my case books, especially dust jackets.) When I sell a restored book, I always make full and complete disclosure of the restoration work that has been done.

Here's an example from the conservators I use, who do restoration work for the Vancouver and Seattle Art galleries (from their website; it is not my document)


http://fsrconservation.com/3con4treat.php#paper2

Before:



After:


Max

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Posted By: joe brennan

I just want the thread to continue.



before



and after.

Hi, My name is Joe, and I'm a soaker.

Hi Joe

People said it was a million dollar wound. But the government must keep that money, cause I ain't never seen a penny of it.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

I think the last post by Joe Brennan of his EL Principe De Gales illustrates exactly what makes me cringe about soaking.
Taking a good look at the card, up the left edge and around the top left corner, and across on the top right corner, the card looks totally different.
The top left edge/corner is SO much straighter and without the obvious nicks and damage of the pre - soaked version....and similarly on the right top corner - you wouldn't think it was the same corner if Joe wasn't saying it was so (go on Joe, say it aint.....), funnily enough though it looks more lifted post soaking (surprise surprise that soaking paper in water that is made of layers would cause lifting) and with a crease across it you don't see in the first scan. Top edge also looks different.
To me, that is not just removing some back paper and glue, that is significantly altering the cards presentation and physical state, including corners, edges, and surface.

JMO.


Daniel

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

This is the thread that doesn't end
And it goes on and on my friend
Some people started posting here not knowing what it was
And they'll continue posting here forever just because

This is the thread that doesn't end.....

EDITED TO MAKE LYRICS MORE ACCURATE

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Posted By: joe brennan

To answer the questions about the card that had paper removed. The difference you are seeing in the corners or edges are because the build up of paper left gaps when I scanned the card. In other words, the corners were farther from the surface of the scanner and when the paper was removed it now lays dowmn flat on the scanner. As you can see by my Evers pic, my scanner sucks but its good enough for me since I am not a frequent seller of cards. I pressed the card between books to remove water and if it layed down some fiber, than it layed down some fiber. I still see nothing wrong with taking paper or glue off the back. Joe

People said it was a million dollar wound. But the government must keep that money, cause I ain't never seen a penny of it.

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Posted By: leon

A little more work and I think I can get it into a PSA8 for you and have the demand go up by 5 people....might have to submit it a dozen times but it's worth it....Then we can be the backbone of the hobby too.......Oh the joy

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Posted By: JK

I dont believe that there is any evidence that this card was trimmed or "worked on" other than the removal of the paper. Looks fine to me.


Josh- it was a joke....of course it was only soaked to get the poop off the back (leon)

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Posted By: greg

Joe,

Nice job on the card and for preserving a piece of history.

Greg

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Posted By: T206Collector

Now this historical artificat can be treasured the way it was meant to be enjoyed.

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Posted By: JK

Hey Leon - my response wasnt aimed at your comment (I understood yours to be a joke). Sorry that wasnt clear.

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Posted By: sagard

Wasn't a rebacking job that fooled some well known grading company foiled by someone who decided to soak the card and prove it?