Kudo's to PSA for the "handcut" designation

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Posted By: leon

I don't remember seeing, though I think it might have been going on for a while, a grade and the qualifier "handcut" but this is the best thing I have seen PSA do in a long time. I wish all grading companies would do it with strip cards and obviously hand cut cards. I know SGC now puts "Toy Town Stamp" on some card holders and that is a step in the right direction too.....I have absolutely no affilliation with this auction but want to show what I think is a good thing....

http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-W555-Hand-Cut-Rube-Waddell-PSA-NM-MT-8_W0QQitemZ270124510252QQihZ017QQcategoryZ31718QQr dZ1QQcmdZViewItem

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Posted By: John S

I agree. However, why put a grade on a handcut card? Just leave the designation as hand cut. What we will never know is if the card was cut (or re-cut) two weeks ago or 100 years ago.

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Posted By: leon

I agree. I have never thought handcut cards should get a numerical grade. Simply saying "Authentic handcut" would be about perfect, imho....I have been told that graders can tell how long ago a card was "cut" but have never really figured that one out? We know about how the fibers lay down on cards from the mfg but if it was cut by a particular handcutting device, 90 yrs ago or 10 yrs ago, would seem hard to determine.....At least this was a step in the right direction though.....regards

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Posted By: boxingcardman

if you know the issue and know what it is supposed to look like, you can grade it prefectly fine. It doesn't matter whether the strip was cut last week or 80 years ago; the cards were intended to be cut down. It is not like an uncut sheet of cards that a submitter cuts down and tries to pass off as factory cut. Like the T206 Wagner (sorry, wrong thread). There should also be numerical grading (where the holder allows) on multiple cards in a single strip or sheet, treating the whole just like a big card.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

I too am a believer in numerical grades for cut down strip cards. They were intended to be seperated, and the logical progression for grading their condition is to judge that cutting effort, along with the other condition assessments.
I'm also good with including the hand cut designation at top of the flip for all cut down strips, just so that any buyer can be instantly aware the card IS in fact a strip card - and not an issue that was cut down during the manufacturing/packaging phase.



Daniel

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Posted By: scott brockelman

nothing else. As you can see from the W555 box, it is not the original size. to grade it an 8 is ridicluous, how many could you come up with buying all of the lower grade full size ones and cut them down to this size. The W555 is not a "handcut" card.

Scott

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Posted By: leon

I don't think any card (that I can think of off hand) made to be cut after it was distributed should get a numerical grade. Heck, why I don't take the all of the strips I have and cut them down and send them in for 98's? I think it's crazy...but to each their own....regards

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

<"What we will never know is if the card was cut (or re-cut) two weeks ago or 100 years ago.">


A fresh hand-cut will be very recognizable by looking at the toning on the card edge(s). It will reveal a very distinctive new cardboard look. This may not always be noticeable with the naked eye but is crystal clear under a halogen light.

Vintage hand-cut cards, although looking trimmed, will have this tone as it is a natural part of aging process.

A halogen light in this hobby is a necessity and should be as important as, let's say, a top-loader.

As an example the card below shows a half trimmed edge. Hopefully you can see the fresh white cardboard cut on the left as it compares to the natural tone on the right side.






Hope this helps!

Kevin Saucier

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Posted By: John S

Kevin,

I should have elaborated when making my original statement. Obviously a two-week old trim would have a different appearance than a a one-hundred year old cut. But individuals submitting one of these issues that were meant to be hand cut would probably go to great lengths to disguise their trimming.

I would have to believe that disguising a "fresh cut" would be relatively simple...and could probably be done without sacrificing the sharpness of the new edge. A little dirt, oil, or moisture on someone's finger repeatedly run over the fresh cut could do the trick.

Lets be realstic, if numerical grades are applied to cards that were meant to be cut, individuals will find a way "fresh cut" oversized (or as Scott points out, cards that are well below original size) cards, disguise the edge, and if PSA apllies numerical grades...cash in.

They shouldn't be graded. As Leon stated, PSA took a step in the right direction but they need to drop the grade. They are encouraging more fraud and deception.

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Posted By: leon

If I take my finger and rub it over the white part of that trim it won't be white anymore and will look aged...Also, I recently picked up that super high grade Dorskin-type SGC92 D304 Baker from REA. The group was said to have been in a book forever (well, you know what I mean)..The edges are very WHITE with no toning...If a card was cut from a strip and put away, 80 years ago, there might not be toning in that case either....no? I realize that could be an exception but still not that far fetched.

edited to finish a thought...sort of...

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

A finger rub and/or dirt will usually look much different than a natural tone. Give it a try on beater. Cut one side and try to finger tone it to match the other sides. Not as easy as it sounds but educational and interesting to attempt.

Sure there are exceptions to every rule but the results are not always as obvious as the exaggerated picture above. Many times the toning even on a very clean vintage card can be very subtle...but usually there.

The example I gave is a basic trimming 101 lesson for graders.

Just trying to help!



Kevin

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Posted By: leon

I have...and it works...

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines (when he was younger)

E. Daniel, you write:
“and the logical progression for grading their condition is to judge that cutting effort,”

I take it that you are in favor of determining a card’s condition based on the skill level of a child with a pair of scissors, or sometimes his ability to accurately rip cardboard. I imagine right now that heaven holds lots of those kids who are, as Leon says ROFLMAO. (or something like that).

But as far as the grading companies are concerned, this is exactly where we are. And worse, if the card contains dotted lines, or once did, in order to achieve the highest grade, all of the dotted lines must remain on the card.

I can almost remember as a kid cutting things along the dotted lines. I was not too good at that, but what I attempted to do was not to bisect the dotted line, but to actually leave the dotted line on that portion of the cut out which was intended to be discarded. It is tuff to be sure about this for me, but I believe that I did not want the dotted lines on my stuff. Maybe your memory is better. Or maybe you wanted the dotted lines on your items.

You wonder why we are a bunch of loons … this grading stuff is totally out of control. Well that, and some of us were looney long before the grading companies.

It was called “cut inside the dotted line”.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

In Australia we called it 'cut along the dotted line'....

And if we can judge and grade cards based on how well printers overlayed colors to give registration, or placed sheets in cutting machines to display even borders, or whether cards stayed long or short times in tobacco pouches or candy boxes and thus were heavily or lightly stained, and how a card with writing in pencil can be improved for grade with the correct eraser - but penned with ink harshly assessed, and gee....I could go on forever and ever on ways we allow cards to be estimated for condition that might seem obsessively ridiculous.

I'm comfortable judging whether a hand cut card has halfway symmetrical cuts - not perfect but reasonable, as opposed to wavy distorted proportions that make the card look anything but a baseball card and more of a scrap.
You're not.

Surprise surprise we see things differently.


Daniel



Edited for spelling

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Posted By: E, Daniel

I would think that a card can only be either factory cut, or hand cut. If there is another method of seperating the card I am intrigued.....

Second, if a card can only be legitly graded numerically if it can't be trimmed/cut down to improve the grade, and still 'make the weight' so to speak in terms of dimensions, I would think that leaves every vintage issue un-gradeable.
I'm sure I've seen oversized examples of nearly every issue over the years, any of which are candidates for trimming and hopeful mint 9's from PSA.
I personally think the total number of candidates from any issue that is hand cut and can be taken advantage of to 'steal' higher grades is so small, begruding the rest of the cards a grade is kind of silly.
As long as you have minimum measurements for any card issue, where's the problem?

MOO

Daniel