1954 Topps Ernie Banks PSA 8 PWCC

[CMIZ5290]

This card is at almost $19K with many hours left! Unbelievable, what the Hell is going on??

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

This card is at almost $19K with many hours left! Unbelievable, what the Hell is going on??

Read the thread on investing.

[Leon]

I moved this to the correct section. That being said there are some crazy prices happening.

[1952boyntoncollector]

couldnt sell my 7.5 for around 3500 here on net54 not long ago

[Beastmode]

the retraction brothers have their fingerprints on this card. Consider this one of many outliers that have sold recently. It is high end, so deserves a premium, but 3X is a lot of risk for a bump when you don't have the card in hand to analyze.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

couldnt sell my 7.5 for around 3500 here on net54 not long ago

When will you understand that a grade is wonderful but the cards are what sell, for most collectors? A 7.5 means almost nothing to me except it shouldn't have creases. A crappy 7.5 of a hof'er might go for $500 but a great looking 7.5 could go for $1200. I don't understand how collectors just buy on grade alone...but I guess that is all many care about. the little paper opinion of someone that probably knows less about cards than you do.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jake's Banks was quite nice IMO.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Leon

When will you understand that a grade is wonderful but the cards are what sell, for most collectors? A 7.5 means almost nothing to me except it shouldn't have creases. A crappy 7.5 of a hof'er might go for $500 but a great looking 7.5 could go for $1200. I don't understand how collectors just buy on grade alone...but I guess that is all many care about. the little paper opinion of someone that probably knows less about cards than you do.

right we know that...but should the grade means a range....

instead of me describing a card as a 7.5, i didnt feel like saying 'i had a card with a slight top to bottom tilt, one corner has a touch on it on it which i would say the touch is a 2 out of 10 with 1 being the best on the scale. The north east corner was a 1 out of 10, the southeast corner was 2 out of ten...there was a slight printer dot on the bottom left, there was a slight scuff....

I just like saying i had a 7.5.....saves time....yes all 7.5 arent equal...i thought mine was pretty good which was listed for 3500 or so .and a 8 just sold for 18k....thats all im saying....

[Leon]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

right we know that...but should the grade means a range....

instead of me describing a card as a 7.5, i didnt feel like saying 'i had a card with a slight top to bottom tilt, one corner has a touch on it on it which i would say the touch is a 2 out of 10 with 1 being the best on the scale. The north east corner was a 1 out of 10, the southeast corner was 2 out of ten...there was a slight printer dot on the bottom left, there was a slight scuff....

I just like saying i had a 7.5.....saves time....yes all 7.5 arent equal...i thought mine was pretty good which was listed for 3500 or so .and a 8 just sold for 18k....thats all im saying....

I would prefer (personally speaking) had you said...it's a 7.5 but has way better centering (or whatever) than the average ones. Otherwise, with no explanation I am thinking it's average and might not even look at it. But that is just me and I am probably in the minority as usual.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Leon

I would prefer (personally speaking) had you said...it's a 7.5 but has way better centering (or whatever) than the average ones. Otherwise, with no explanation I am thinking it's average and might not even look. But that is just me and I am probably in the minority as usual.

generally the banks rookie card 1954 really shows well compared to other 54s because the color of the card is close to the border color....the only bad attributes on that card is top to bottom centering.....most 54 banks when you are getting to the psa 6 level in better have really good eye appeal

[Leon]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

generally the banks rookie card 1954 really shows well compared to other 54s because the color of the card is close to the border color....the only bad attributes on that card is top to bottom centering.....most 54 banks when you are getting to the psa 6 level in better have really good eye appeal

I agree on the eye appeal but the centering is so hard to tell and almost always off top to bottom as you mention. This one has a nice top border, but it could be a tad bit bigger..

[1952boyntoncollector]

Right the centering doesnt show on a Banks like it does a 51 mantle....theres a lot more leeway on centering on the 54 banks...thats why i think you can say you have a graded 7.5 and comparing prices with a grade 8 versus other cards in other sets where the border is really easy to seee

[bobbyw8469]

Leon is right. Cards rule. I have had cards grade '1' sell for more than their PSA 3 counterparts. Check out my 1956 Mantle and 1953 Bowman Color Pee Wee Reese to see some BEAUTIFUL 1's that outsold their higher graded counterparts. I understand your thinking that a card attained a certain grade, and therefore should sell for a certain price, but the bottom line is - the card rules. I think more and more people are swaying around to that line of thinking.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Leon is right. Cards rule. I have had cards grade '1' sell for more than their PSA 3 counterparts. Check out my 1956 Mantle and 1953 Bowman Color Pee Wee Reese to see some BEAUTIFUL 1's that outsold their higher graded counterparts. I understand your thinking that a card attained a certain grade, and therefore should sell for a certain price, but the bottom line is - the card rules. I think more and more people are swaying around to that line of thinking.

for those cards thats like a difference of 100 bucks or whatever...i like to see an auction were a psa 5 RC mantle goes for less than a PSA 4 RC mantle in the very same auction..when its about 1000s and 1000s people sell the holder not the card...even if there is one example that can be pointed too..the fact that 99% of the auctions you wont be able to point too show you that grades rule not cards...

[bobbyw8469]

Ahh..my friend...you must not be a VCP member. A little research goes a long way to see I am telling the truth.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1956-Topps-M...247?rmvSB=true

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1956-Topps-M...372?rmvSB=true

That is a '1' vs a PSA '3.5' by the almighty PWCC nonetheless! I think that is a clear example that people are looking at the cards and not the flips. The times are changing. Adapt or get crushed.

Research yourself...I am too busy. I had a Reggie Jackson rookie PSA 6 that sold for more than its PSA 7 counterpart in the SAME AUCTION (with PWCC). The same statement can be said for a Bob Gibson rookie I had with PWCC. You HAVE to account for centering and overall eye appeal of the card.

[glynparson]

The question I have is who are the selling for more to collectors or card doctors?

If collectors than yes it is solely the eye appeal making the difference if it is card doctors its because they think they can work it to an 8 or 9.

That said cards do matter more especially in lower grades than the holders do.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Ahh..my friend...you must not be a VCP member. A little research goes a long way to see I am telling the truth.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1956-Topps-M...247?rmvSB=true

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1956-Topps-M...372?rmvSB=true

That is a '1' vs a PSA '3.5' by the almighty PWCC nonetheless! I think that is a clear example that people are looking at the cards and not the flips. The times are changing. Adapt or get crushed.

Research yourself...I am too busy. I had a Reggie Jackson rookie PSA 6 that sold for more than its PSA 7 counterpart in the SAME AUCTION (with PWCC). The same statement can be said for a Bob Gibson rookie I had with PWCC. You HAVE to account for centering and overall eye appeal of the card.

right the lower grades when its not about 1000s of dollars there iss more of a chance but for every 1 example you show i can show 10000 examples of a horribly looking 8 going for more than a 7....people sell the holder not the card. As for research, the last time someone asked me for that is when i stated that PSA is much more prevalent then SGC all around and as far as value. I think its obvious now as well as my statement here than 99% of the time the grade rules. Id like to see a PSA 8 common 1974 topps card ever sell for more than a psa 9 in the same auction. Many posters have said they cant even tell the difference between 9s and 10s yet 10s sell for more for example...if cant tell the difference they should sell for the same.

[Leon]

I disagree with quite a bit of what you say on this one. Go do a search on '52 Mantles, '51 Mantles and any other higher end HOF rookie. Almost every single sale will be based on the way the card looks AS WELL AS the grade on the paper. At least that is what I am seeing spending countless hours watching.
I personally pay more for better cards in lower grades than what the flip says on higher grade but lesser quality cards. So do almost all of the buyers I see on ebay. Some are buying holders....but those cards are going for less than the really nice cards in the same holders. People like yourself say "hey it's an 8"....then you go to sell and can't figure out why your card doesn't bring what a nicer 7 does. I think it's because some people (investors and less knowledgeable collectors) buy holders and most experienced collectors buy cards.....Go figure....


And when you say if an 8 looks the same as a 10 they should sell for the same, that is the crux of this whole debate. Investors, registry collectors and other less caring hobbyists buy the flip. Others buy the cards. And yes there are a lot of flip collectors, no doubt about it.

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

right the lower grades when its not about 1000s of dollars there iss more of a chance but for every 1 example you show i can show 10000 examples of a horribly looking 8 going for more than a 7....people sell the holder not the card. As for research, the last time someone asked me for that is when i stated that PSA is much more prevalent then SGC all around and as far as value. I think its obvious now as well as my statement here than 99% of the time the grade rules. Id like to see a PSA 8 common 1974 topps card ever sell for more than a psa 9 in the same auction. Many posters have said they cant even tell the difference between 9s and 10s yet 10s sell for more for example...if cant tell the difference they should sell for the same.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by glynparson

The question I have is who are the selling for more to collectors or card doctors?

If collectors than yes it is solely the eye appeal making the difference if it is card doctors its because they think they can work it to an 8 or 9.

That said cards do matter more especially in lower grades than the holders do.

From what I am hearing and seeing, quite a number of recent high dollar purchases have been by people one would think of as card doctors.

[pokerplyr80]

It sounds like the point 52boyton is trying to make is that on cards where there is a huge price jump for 1 grade, say a clemente 7 at 25k vs an 8 at 125k you will never see a nice 7 out sell an 8.

I'd have to say I agree. On these types of cards the higher grade will always bring a higher price. I do remember an example that was discussed on net54 of a very nice 51 mantle 4 outselling a rough 5 in the same auction. Maybe a year ago or so. But that is another card where I don't thing you'll ever see a 7 outsell an 8, or an 8 outsell a 9.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

From what I am hearing and seeing, quite a number of recent high dollar purchases have been by people one would think of as card doctors.

if this is true than I'd be more concerned there may be "relationships" between said "doctors" and graders at "PSA" presumably...especially in light of the supposed cracking down on giving high grades at psa.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

It sounds like the point 52boyton is trying to make is that on cards where there is a huge price jump for 1 grade, say a clemente 7 at 25k vs an 8 at 125k you will never see a nice 7 out sell an 8.

I'd have to say I agree. On these types of cards the higher grade will always bring a higher price. I do remember an example that was discussed on net54 of a very nice 51 mantle 4 outselling a rough 5 in the same auction. Maybe a year ago or so. But that is another card where I don't thing you'll ever see a 7 outsell an 8, or an 8 outsell a 9.

right plus we cant say a rose 7 that sold that sold now outsold a rose 7 last year...market changed..

basically when the money matters to middle class person is when the flip becomes more important....one exception the 'artwork' cards where any month can be a 100k plus or minus like a psa 3 versus 4 rookie ruth or wagner...there more to the card, who used to own it and other factors besides the flip....

but for 99% of the cards where the money matters the flip matters... i not see a 2.5 topps rookie mantle sell for 40k but i bet you there have been some lame 4.5s that have..

will i pay 100 bucks more on a psa 3 even though 4's go for 70...sure who cares about 30 bucks if love the card....if its over 4k...then i not going to make that decision so easily..

[Leon]

On those specific cards, in 7 and above, I agree because the prices are so different. But that is not the case with 98% of the cards we see. I know as I am looking for many hours every single day at completed auctions and recent sales prices. Below the 7 and 8 level on those two cards you will see jockeying in values not respective of their flips. I can post numerous examples but it's common sense if you are watching what is going on. I routinely see '51 and '52 Micks in 2,3,4,5 and sometimes 6 grades that underperform their lower number counterparts which have better visual appeal. It only happens almost every single day.

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

It sounds like the point 52boyton is trying to make is that on cards where there is a huge price jump for 1 grade, say a clemente 7 at 25k vs an 8 at 125k you will never see a nice 7 out sell an 8.

I'd have to say I agree. On these types of cards the higher grade will always bring a higher price. I do remember an example that was discussed on net54 of a very nice 51 mantle 4 outselling a rough 5 in the same auction. Maybe a year ago or so. But that is another card where I don't thing you'll ever see a 7 outsell an 8, or an 8 outsell a 9.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

if this is true than I'd be more concerned there may be "relationships" between said "doctors" and graders at "PSA" presumably...especially in light of the supposed cracking down on giving high grades at psa.

Maybe. Then again, there are very good card doctors out there, and as I have said many times for your submission fee you aren't buying a crime lab, you are buying a quick review.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Leon

On those specific cards, in 7 and above, I agree because the prices are so different. But that is not the case with 98% of the cards we see. I know as I am looking for many hours every single day at completed auctions and recent sales prices. Below the 7 and 8 level on those two cards you will see jockeying in values not respective of their flips. I can post numerous examples but it's common sense if you are watching what is going on. I routinely see '51 and '52 Micks in 2,3,4,5 and sometimes 6 grades that underperform their lower number counterparts which have better visual appeal. It only happens almost every single day.

I agree with that as well. I would expect your 2.5 52 Mantle to outsell some of the jacked up 4s that have been going in the low to mid 20s in the same auction. Same with any of the 50s rookies that are so popular right now. A nice dead center low to mid grade card can easily bring a price a grade or two above recent sales. But on higher grades where one grade means a jump of 100% or more in price it won't happen.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I agree with that as well. I would expect your 2.5 52 Mantle to outsell some of the jacked up 4s that have been going in the low to mid 20s in the same auction. Same with any of the 50s rookies that are so popular right now. A nice dead center low to mid grade card can easily bring a price a grade or two above recent sales. But on higher grades where one grade means a jump of 100% or more in price it won't happen.

right...when it comes to putting your money where you mouth is...when talking that type of money..the flip matters... someone can say a number 15 seed will beat a number 2 seed in the NCAA tourney but if forced to bet even money, then are going to go with the the number 2 seed even though the 15 seed is 'better'...

so for things that matter the flip matters on 99% of the deals..thats all i saying...always exceptions...but theres a reason why there is a Rule in the first place...then the exceptions..

[Peter_Spaeth]

In my opinion many of these lower flips outperforming higher ones is because the buyers think they are going to get the card into a higher flip. Not because it's some collector who likes the card more.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In my opinion many of these lower flips outperforming higher ones is because the buyers think they are going to get the card into a higher flip. Not because it's some collector who likes the card more.

i agree with that.....and they are trying to bump it up because they sell the flip not the card..

[Leon]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

....

so for things that matter the flip matters on 99% of the deals..thats all i saying...always exceptions...but theres a reason why there is a Rule in the first place...then the exceptions..

Cards in under a 7 grade don't matter?
I think it would be more accurate if you said, at the high end of high dollar cards (7 and above) the flip matters more than the card. As we go down the totem pole in grade, the flip matters less. How about that?

.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

Cards in under a 7 grade don't matter?
I think it would be more accurate if you said, at the high end of high dollar cards (7 and above) the flip matters more than the card. As we go down the totem pole in grade, the flip matters less. How about that?

.

I disagree. Try posting something on BST or your site with the flip covered up and see if anyone buys it without inquiring.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Leon is right. Cards rule. I have had cards grade '1' sell for more than their PSA 3 counterparts. Check out my 1956 Mantle and 1953 Bowman Color Pee Wee Reese to see some BEAUTIFUL 1's that outsold their higher graded counterparts. I understand your thinking that a card attained a certain grade, and therefore should sell for a certain price, but the bottom line is - the card rules. I think more and more people are swaying around to that line of thinking.

If a dealer that relied purely on the flip for pricing were selling these cards, I would buy these at "PSA 1 prices" in a heartbeat.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I disagree. Try posting something on BST or your site with the flip covered up and see if anyone buys it without inquiring.

haha i going to do that...i will guarantee it is graded with no qualifers etc ....after all the flip doesnt matter..

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I disagree. Try posting something on BST or your site with the flip covered up and see if anyone buys it without inquiring.

The flip matters less with respect to value was my point I was trying to make. Also, further above, we were talking about a 7 or higher Mantle. Only an idiot wouldn't want to know what is on a flip if it were covered up. However, On the lower grades it doesn't always equate to the highest value, that is the point if you would like to argue or debate that one?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

The flip matters less with respect to value was my point I was trying to make. Also, further above, we were talking about a 7 or higher Mantle. Only an idiot wouldn't want to know what is on a flip if it were covered up. However, On the lower grades it doesn't always equate to the highest value, that is the point if you would like to argue or debate that one?

It doesn't ALWAYS I agree. But in the overwhelming majority of cases it does. And as I said, often where it doesn't, it's card doctors and other bumpers.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Leon

The flip matters less with respect to value was my point I was trying to make. Also, further above, we were talking about a 7 or higher Mantle. Only an idiot wouldn't want to know what is on a flip if it were covered up. However, On the lower grades it doesn't always equate to the highest value, that is the point if you would like to argue or debate that one?

right on the lower grades where there exist plenty of high grade cards for that type of card..

[bobbyw8469]

I just posted pics of the 1's. Like I said, I had a centered Reggie Jackson rookie PSA 6 that outsold PWCC's 7's of the same card. I also had a centered Bob Gibson rookie PSA 5.5 that outsold PSA 6's of the same card (all during PWCC auctions where the different grades were being sold at the same time). That being said, the higher grade WILL NOT always outsell the lower grade counterpart. And we are talking about more than $100.

[bobbyw8469]

Interesting thread. I enjoy reading other collectors viewpoints on the whole label vs card phenomenon.

[ls7plus]

I just hope these values hold up until the hobby focus shifts, as it inevitably does--in this instance, away from '50's and '60's cards. It was only 2007 when Bill Goodwin and I spoke personally, and he told me that cards from that era "sell [at auction], but not like pre-war cards do." Imagine what bargains truly significant and far rarer cards from 1900 to 1947 or so will seem to be when the spotlight once again shines on them!!! Never think things will remain the same--the only constant is change. Don't get caught holding high dollar cards that are far from being in short supply when that change arrives--bulls and bears can both profit, but pigs get slaughtered!

Best to all,

Larry