Question about PSA/JSA "Guarantees"

[cjedmonton]

*The comments below do not apply to established autograph dealers

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How often do we encounter an unauthenticated autographed item where the seller "guarantees" it will pass a major 3rd party authentication?

Yet, how often do we come across a seller who not only offers a full refund on the item itself if it fails to pass the mustard, but also offers to reimburse the buyer of his/her out of pocket expenses to submit said item to PSA/JSA?

As a future seller of a number of vintage unauthenticated signatures, I'm just trying to figure out my best plan of action:

1. Spend the out of pocket expense to submit everything to PSA/JSA

2. Back my confidence in the item by offering to reimburse the buyer of both the sale price and authentication fees they spend, only to have it kicked back?

3. Make no such claims of authenticity since no one, in theory, can make an absolute 100% guarantee (short of witnessing it being signed in person or being the person who signed it themselves).

I am leaning toward #2 to give bidders a bit more confidence when bidding, but in reality, it seems like it would only come across as a halfhearted attempt. Really, I'm just a random stranger who says he will offer a full refund including fees. What legitimate proof can I offer a bidder?

Thanks and sorry for the mild ramble.

Chris

[travrosty]

dont handcuff yourself like that. you are exposing yourself to the whim and fancy of psa and jsa if you do that. if an autograph that you know is 100 percent legit fails these services because they dont know the autograph, or that they just rolled out of the wrong side of the bed this morning, you are out a lot of cash, and it's not your fault. i would guaranee the authenticity of the autograph yourself, but a jsa or psa fail does not trigger your guarantee, rather real evidence that it is a fake autograph should trigger you guarantee.

josportsinc.com has a good guarantee disclaimer.

http://josportsinc.com/catalog/autograph.html

people i know have been burnt so many times by promising an item to pass psa or jsa, only to see these services get it wrong that we just throw up our hands now and say no way.

[ibuysportsephemera]

Were you there when the autographs were obtained? If not, how do you or anyone else "guarantee" that they are authentic. If you are continuing to auction these items on eBay, take lots of pictures... including really close up ones, give really good descriptions and explain the provenance of the piece the best that you can. Unless you missed the boat (i.e. a facsimile that you mistook for the real thing) and don't describe something correctly, let the consumer be the judge and bear the responsibility of the authenticity. If you read Net54 for any length of time, you will see that just from pictures autograph guys make determinations about authenticity on a regular basis.

Jeff

[cjedmonton]

Okay, good advice from both. Thanks. I'm still torn between taking the auction house route or sticking with Ebay.

Although I am committed to spending the time to take plenty of pictures/scans and provide a good description for each item (without explicitly "guaranteeing" anything), I obviously want to avoid any drama from a disgruntled buyer if a signed item turns out not to be authentic.

Fortunately, the provenance is rock solid, so hopefully that will be enough to give bidders enough info to draw their own conclusions.

[mighty bombjack]

Here is my take as a seldom autograph seller. A seller needs to stand by the authenticity of an item. You should have a return policy so that the buyer can inspect the item in hand. If you want to give the buyer enough time within that policy to send an item to a third party, than do so, but never offer to cover their expenses for that.

[earlywynnfan]

I sell a lot of low-end stuff on ebay. I offer a guarantee on the cost of the item. I tend to respect the people here more than PSA or JSA, but they are the popular choices. I had one item (a Soriano ball) get caught between dueling authenticators. I truly feel it was good, but I refunded the buyer because I want them to be happy. I don't think you need to worry about paying the buyer's fees as long as you are up front about it.

Ken

PS: You have Richard Simon right here, why not see how much he'll charge you?

[markf31]

I am not a seller but I am a buyer and I have had numerous exchanges with sellers regarding this topic. I am by no means an expert and I rarely trust my own eye to know if a particular autograph is authentic or not for the simple fact I just don't have the knowledge or experience.

My only pience of advice is be ware of offering buyers a refund if an item fails authentication. There are many stories out there of a buyer claming an item fails authentication because they'll switch your genuine item/autograph for a known fake. The buyer then submits the fake, it fails authentication, and they ask for their money back while sending you the fake back and keeping your original authentic item.

In my mind it comes down to the difference in the final sale price that can be realized by having an item authenticated. If your selling a $50 autograph, its not worth having authenticated. If you're selling one that can be valued at several hundred dollars, then it could pay to spend $50-$75 to have it authenticated and realize the gain in a higher final sale price.

[MooseDog]

DO NOT offer to refund fees unless you can somehow limit the exposure. If you have business insurance you might be able to do something there but probably not worth the cost.

I have two cases where PSA and JSA deemed "not genuine" high $ signatures that I obtained in person and witnessed the signing myself.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by MooseDog

I have two cases where PSA and JSA deemed "not genuine" high $ signatures that I obtained in person and witnessed the signing myself.

There are so many people in the hobby who tell these stories.
It is just a shame.

[Lordstan]

I haven't sold a lot on ebay in a while, but when I did, I handled it this way.
I offered a 2wk money back guarantee for any reason and a lifetime one on authenticity. I used to put a link in my auction to the quick opinion service for buyers to use if they wanted. I sent a clear receipt with my name, address, and phone. That's it.
I would not offer to cover anyone's authentication costs as the decision to send it someone for their opinion is their's, not yours.

[cjedmonton]

Decisions, decisions...

I really don't want to offer a "lifetime" guarantee; not because I don't believe in the item, but because I am not a business owner and not a professional autograph dealer. Long after the lot is liquidated and I am out of the vintage autograph selling "business", I don't want to be on the hook for a refund. It seems like way too many things can go wrong months/years down the road.

I almost want to sell the items strictly "as is" with excellent photos and will make it abundantly clear that I cannot be 100% certain of any autograph.

I may take the advice to PM Richard Simon and see what he might charge to review the items.

Many thanks to all. Very glad to be a member of this community.

Chris

[Plinvestments]

How about offering the Ebay buyer the option to get a quick opinion from PSA? It costs only $7.49 no matter how much the full authentication costs. I use the service a lot myself on personal purchases. The beauty is, the turnaround time is usually no more than a day, and you will get the result before the buyer pays and before you ship. It saves a lot of hassle either way. On high dollar items, I would pay for it myself and post the quick opinion in the listing. Its a cheap way to get a PSA cert without the official one.

Some of my best pickups were using PSA quick opinion. The auction prices are depressed for items without an official cert and there are a lot of bargains from individual personal collections.

[Lordstan]

Chris,
I totally understand what you are saying about lifetime guarantee.
You certainly can sell them without it, but you might have to set your sights lower regarding end sale amounts. The more reassured the buyers are, the higher they will bid.

When I am looking at buying an autograph, this is how I evaluate it.
1) The sellers refund policy. Do they stand behind their own knowledge?
2) My own knowledge and comfort level with the signer, item, history.
3) The reputation of the seller. Not just feedback, but are they well known and reputable.
4) Any paperwork/certification that comes with the item.

Any autograph that I am looking to bid on, that has an "as-is" seller policy will get either no bid or a much lower bid from me. This is a real red flag of something being wrong.

Why I feel this way is that everyone can be fooled. Even an honest, hard working, and experienced seller can make a mistake. What I want is the comfort of knowing that I will be made whole by the seller, in that event, because he/she wants me to be satisfied.
When I purchased the HOF yrbk I listed in the July pick up thread, I did so without seeing it. I asked Jim Stinson to scan the sigs so i could see them. He replied that it would take him forever to do so and not to worry because I could always return it if I was unhappy. This was exactly what I wanted to hear.

Good Luck with whatever you decide to do.

Best,
Mark

[drc]

That's true. You can tell the visitors that they can get a PSA quick opinion if they wish. Just saying that will instill some confidence and it points out that the are able to get a second opinion if they chose.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Plinvestments

How about offering the Ebay buyer the option to get a quick opinion from PSA? It costs only $7.49 no matter how much the full authentication costs. I use the service a lot myself on personal purchases. The beauty is, the turnaround time is usually no more than a day, and you will get the result before the buyer pays and before you ship. It saves a lot of hassle either way. On high dollar items, I would pay for it myself and post the quick opinion in the listing. Its a cheap way to get a PSA cert without the official one.

Some of my best pickups were using PSA quick opinion. The auction prices are depressed for items without an official cert and there are a lot of bargains from individual personal collections.

And your guess is as good as mine as to know who is looking at the quick opinion items.
For $7.49 it is not their most visible authenticators, those authenticators cannot even keep up with the items that need a real cert.

[mighty bombjack]

You can also offer a much shorter period for returns, but one that allows for a TPA to render an opinion. 90 days seems to be a number I've seen a bit, and I think that is fair for a non-dealer.

[cjedmonton]

Yes, I'm quite familiar with the Quick Opinion option as well. I never thought about posting the results in the auction, but that's a great idea.

I actually got what I thought to be an excellent deal on a Dodgers Pictorial History book (75+ signatures including Koufax/Drysdale) using Quick Opinion.

Truth be told, we're not even talking about high end items. The best of the remaining autographs are a 1951 WS Program signed by Douglas MacArthur, another '51 WS program signed by most of the NY Giants executives/management (Stoneham, Feeney, Durocher, Brannick, etc...), and a mid-late 50's Lowe & Campbell baseball signed by Dizzy and Daffy Dean.

Scans to follow as soon as I find the time...

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

And your guess is as good as mine as to know who is looking at the quick opinion items.
For $7.49 it is not their most visible authenticators, those authenticators cannot even keep up with the items that need a real cert.

is steve grad looking at QO for 7.95 a shot? like Richard says, I don't think so. so who is giving this 'qualified' opinion if the A team isn't exactly impressing me? the c team, the d team, a guy who wants to make the d team?

ask joe o, he won't say.

A vintage muhammad ali signature with the less common 'A frame" capital A came back not authentic during a quick opinion, because the guy looking at it wasnt familiar with that variation. that's how good they are.

[Plinvestments]

Originally Posted by travrosty

is steve grad looking at QO for 7.95 a shot? like Richard says, I don't think so. so who is giving this 'qualified' opinion if the A team isn't exactly impressing me? the c team, the d team, a guy who wants to make the d team?

ask joe o, he won't say.

A vintage muhammad ali signature with the less common 'A frame" capital A came back not authentic during a quick opinion, because the guy looking at it wasnt familiar with that variation. that's how good they are.

I don't know for sure but I think there is an escalation process. I believe that even their most junior authenticators can pick out the majority of the bad fakes out there. On the tougher ones, they get a second look from a senior guy. I had a Ronald Reagan sig looked at once. I was pretty sure the subject piece was an autopen sig gone awry. Oddly, psa didn't render an opinion for like 3 or 4 days. I was told they needed their specialist to look at it. That at least is reassuring, and sure enough, they reached the same opinion I reached, not likely genuine. But back to the point, the authenticity of an item doesn't matter to most people, the sticker does, since there is a market for stickered items. Unfortunate, but that is reality. A positive quick opinion will almost always get a thumbs up if you were to send it in for the full cert. I have yet to see a quick opinion fail. Same with auction LOAs. I have seen precertified lots of 50+ 8x10s. Do you think they spent more than 15 minutes precertifying the lot? Psa now gurantees all precertified items will get a sticker.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Plinvestments

"I don't know for sure"

That is the key part of your posting. Nobody knows for sure what goes on with a quick opinion.

[Exhibitman]

We've got a mish-mash of issues here:

1. Is it genuine? Unfortunately, it is all subjective and speculative unless you were standing there when the item got signed. In court we call it hearsay evidence; I heard from someone else that something happened.

2. Is it certified and what does that mean? People pay for the cert as a substitute for knowledge because no one can be sure of anything they haven't witnessed. It is an expert [hopefully] opinion but many experts are for sale. In litigation we call the process of finding an expert who will say what your client needs him to say "whore-shopping." It is worthless unless the expert happens to have a cachet in the collecting community. Anyone bought a GAI-certed item lately?? And don't even get me started on the odious "auction LOA" that some auctioneers now use. Talk about a popcorn fart--the small print gives you a set time to pay for the privilege of allowing the TPA to certify the item that you are ostensibly buying certified--if it doesn't pass them the 2nd time you don't pay for the submission, but if it does pass you pay the cost for the upgrade to the full LOA. What a great deal, just fills me with confidence. I know the TPA that already did a cursory review of the item will go over it again with a fine tooth comb to ferret out the truth rather than rubber stamping it so as to collect another fee. Sure, and I have a bridge in Brooklyn too, for sale cheap. When you get one of those worthless slips of paper and it is past the deadline, woe unto you--the TPA will solemnly inform you that the auction LOA has expired and you will have to pay the full recert fee regardless of outcome.

3. As a seller is it worth having a TPA opine? Depends. There is a misperception in the collecting base as to what a seller is purchasing with a TPA cert. As a seller I am not buying an iron-clad guarantee it is authentic--truly, that doesn't matter to me since it is just inventory I am moving. I am buying freedom from having to warrant anything when I purchase a TPA opinion. As long as I have the item in one of their slabs with the cert on it--that is critical for the sales effort--I know I can resell it risk-free to me at auction or on Ebay [if it is one of their "blessed" TPAs]. What will a buyer do, say it isn't a PSA/DNA certified item? Now, that freedom comes at considerable expense. If I am selling a common signed card for $9.99, no way do I waste the money--I will refund the occasional bitchy buyer. If I am selling something a lot higher priced, however, I will hold my nose and use the TPA service.

4. As a seller should you cover the buyer's fee for TPA? Not if you want to stay in business. Those TPA fees are very expensive and will eat you alive. Offer to cover those and your business life expectancy will be about the same as a mosquito.

And last, my buyer's perspective: I try to do my homework and buy based on what I see and learn rather than a TPA opinion. That said, I recently purchased a Marciano signed PC with a guarantee from a local seller [I only buy unslabbed from locals so I can readily sue them to enforce a guarantee if needed]. I sent it to PSA/DNA [cost me $$$] and it got dinged. I got my money back but I also ate the TPA fee. I will never, ever do that again--I cannot afford to eat cert fees like that. What that means, in my way of collecting, is that there is no more middle ground for me as a collector. Assuming it looks good to me to begin with, I will either buy a slabbed/certed item or I will pay a rock-bottom price for a raw item on the assumption that it is worth the gamble and with the understanding that I will have to shell out to get a TPA cert on it so I can sell it. The "middle ground" [decent item, reasonable price] is dead to me. And no, I don't particularly care about the sterling reputation of the seller of the item because if I ever want to resell it that person isn't there, it is just me, and I better have a TPA cert or I will be treated as the lowball seller of dodgy raw items.

FWIW, my advice for the OP is to consign the items to an auctioneer who will do the TPA for free or provide its own COA and let them take all the risks. Without a TPA cert you will be treated as the typical Ebay scam artist and see low prices on your items because that, unfortunately, is where the market has gone for the weekend warrior type.

[MooseDog]

Well stated and great post, Adam!

[RichardSimon]

Adam - you have stated "I will either buy a slabbed/certed item" in your post.
Don't you think the seller has bumped up his price to cover his cost of the slabbed/certed item? You are paying for the cert/slab, just not directly to the TPA.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

That is the key part of your posting. Nobody knows for sure what goes on with a quick opinion.

it's a secret, they don't want people to know. if people knew, they would probably be shocked to find out some guy they most likely never heard of that's probably not listed on their website and has ? hobby credentials has power to knock their item off of ebay. I use 'most likely' and 'probably' also because again, like Richard said, no one knows, which is the way they want it.

[mschwade]

Nice post Adam!

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by mschwade

Nice post Adam!

but see i like the ungraded decent item, decent price. it is a marciano and it is ungraded, and at a decent price. i love that. others will stay away but if i know its good i will get it and i dont care if psa says its bad. i already know its good.

i once bought a marciano signed album page on ebay, it was uncerted, and the photo was a little blurry and a little far away, but i knew it was good, i bought it for 200, it was as good as gold. if psa, or jsa, or the man on the moon ever said no good. i dont care. i ended up selling it for 400 ungraded, with my own guarantee, which was the prevailing going price for marciano, (even WITH a TPA cert, they sell for about 400 bucks). the cert costs about 100 bucks when you factor in shipping both ways. I didn't pay that 100 dollars, and still sold it for the going rate. WHY?

Because there are people out there who know marciano's signature and dont need the tpa cert either, and my lifetime guarantee is a real guarantee, not like psa's no guarantee.


when psa said no good to the marciano, how did you know it was a bad marciano? did you ask a boxing signature expert? psa has no boxing signature expert. they have slabbed several wife signed sonny liston autographs as real sonny liston autographs, and jsa has certed wife signed liston autographs as well, and psa and jsa have both given thumbs down to authentic sonny liston autographs, one of them which belonged to me. I didn't throw it away just because they said no good, by the way. Half my collection could be no good according to them, but i know it was all good, so their opinion means what to me since they get boxing wrong so often? nothing.

You don't need to play the psa or jsa game, it just costs money you don't need to spend. fighttoys.com sets up at the boxing hof convention every year, and does well selling at the memorabilia show, and none of his items has psa or jsa certification. but he offers a lifetime guarantee and honors it. Full disclosure, I am friends with him by the way, Mark Ogren. he doesn't need psa or jsa either. it's a waste of money because they aren't known for boxing at all, what they ARE known for, I don't know.

[Plinvestments]

Originally Posted by travrosty

it's a secret, they don't want people to know. if people knew, they would probably be shocked to find out some guy they most likely never heard of that's probably not listed on their website and has ? hobby credentials has power to knock their item off of ebay. I use 'most likely' and 'probably' also because again, like Richard said, no one knows, which is the way they want it.

To me, all of this is irrelevant because whoever gives the "likely genuine" tag will be backed up when and if the item is submitted for full authentication. I have yet to see a "likely genuine" fail further inspection. I'm not a huge fan of PSA or JSA but the fact remains that they created a market. PSA items sell for a premium and there are more buyers for their items. I wish it wasn't true but since it is, I have to play ball.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

I like having the protected slabs, could care less about authenticity because I don't sell. Nice if you drop them you don't need to worry about it flying out of a top loader or whatever or move around too much (depending on card etc). And unfortunately, re-sell value with a sticker goes waaaaay up (depending on item).

[thenavarro]

Originally Posted by Plinvestments

I have yet to see a "likely genuine" fail further inspection.

I have personally had PSA/DNA fail items that I submitted that had received "likely genuine" when I purchased the quick opinion.

Tends to make me mad as hell when it happens, but it does happen. Had one within the past couple weeks as a matter of fact.

Mike

[cjedmonton]

Wow, my head is spinning from all this insight!

Since the overall lot only has a few autographed items (< 10), I'm now leaning toward finding a single buyer or consign to an auction house who will provide certs from a TPA.

As for the bulk of the lot, authentication is not a concern (programs, pennants, etc...). Even so, I'm not looking forward to all the scanning.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Plinvestments

To me, all of this is irrelevant because whoever gives the "likely genuine" tag will be backed up when and if the item is submitted for full authentication. I have yet to see a "likely genuine" fail further inspection. I'm not a huge fan of PSA or JSA but the fact remains that they created a market. PSA items sell for a premium and there are more buyers for their items. I wish it wasn't true but since it is, I have to play ball.

you only think they sell for a premium, they don't, and too many people have the 'i have to play ball' mentality, that allows psa and jsa to get away with what they get away with and not provide true customer service and an accurate opinion. they have too many customers 'playing ball' that they can do whatever they want and the customers come back for more.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Plinvestments

To me, all of this is irrelevant because whoever gives the "likely genuine" tag will be backed up when and if the item is submitted for full authentication. I have yet to see a "likely genuine" fail further inspection. I'm not a huge fan of PSA or JSA but the fact remains that they created a market. PSA items sell for a premium and there are more buyers for their items. I wish it wasn't true but since it is, I have to play ball.

you only think they sell for a premium, they don't, and too many people have the 'i have to play ball' mentality, that allows psa and jsa to get away with what they get away with and not provide true customer service and an accurate opinion. they have too many customers 'playing ball' that they can do whatever they want and the customers come back for more, many of them even admitting they don't like it and think these companies leave a lot to be desired. The companies get away with it because the customers let them. If people withheld their dollars until they got their act together, they would have to change, but customers don't, so we just get a lot more of the same and it will be that way forever unless people wake up. I have sold hundreds and hundreds of boxing autographs at good prices and I didn't pay for the non-expert opinion of these companies.

disclosure: I have sent a grand total of two autographs to jsa a few years ago when i didn't know any better, and I realized no extra profit and actually a loss on an item because I got the same price that I would have gotten without authentication, and I couldn't recoup my authentication fee by an increase in sale price.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by travrosty

but see i like the ungraded decent item, decent price. it is a marciano and it is ungraded, and at a decent price. i love that. others will stay away but if i know its good i will get it and i dont care if psa says its bad. i already know its good.

i once bought a marciano signed album page on ebay, it was uncerted, and the photo was a little blurry and a little far away, but i knew it was good, i bought it for 200, it was as good as gold. if psa, or jsa, or the man on the moon ever said no good. i dont care. i ended up selling it for 400 ungraded, with my own guarantee, which was the prevailing going price for marciano, (even WITH a TPA cert, they sell for about 400 bucks). the cert costs about 100 bucks when you factor in shipping both ways. I didn't pay that 100 dollars, and still sold it for the going rate. WHY?

Because there are people out there who know marciano's signature and dont need the tpa cert either, and my lifetime guarantee is a real guarantee, not like psa's no guarantee.


when psa said no good to the marciano, how did you know it was a bad marciano? did you ask a boxing signature expert? psa has no boxing signature expert. they have slabbed several wife signed sonny liston autographs as real sonny liston autographs, and jsa has certed wife signed liston autographs as well, and psa and jsa have both given thumbs down to authentic sonny liston autographs, one of them which belonged to me. I didn't throw it away just because they said no good, by the way. Half my collection could be no good according to them, but i know it was all good, so their opinion means what to me since they get boxing wrong so often? nothing.

You don't need to play the psa or jsa game, it just costs money you don't need to spend. fighttoys.com sets up at the boxing hof convention every year, and does well selling at the memorabilia show, and none of his items has psa or jsa certification. but he offers a lifetime guarantee and honors it. Full disclosure, I am friends with him by the way, Mark Ogren. he doesn't need psa or jsa either. it's a waste of money because they aren't known for boxing at all, what they ARE known for, I don't know.

Trav, you have the luxury of opting out of the TPA racket because you are an expert. If I want to sell something I do need to play the TPA game because I do not have a reputation as an autograph expert. Doesn't matter that the guy I bought it from is an expert or that I conclude that the item is good: that seller isn't there when I sell and my opinion doesn't carry the necessary weight with the consumer when it comes to autographs [yeah, I am an expert in boxing cards--SGC calls me with toughies--but not autographs]. I sent in the Marciano because I wanted to have that TPA warranty for resale purposes. If they won't pass the item it is worthless to me as a seller.

Richard, of course the seller has bumped his price to cover the TPA fee. I don't care about that because I am not merely paying for the TPA fee, I am paying [and I acknowledge that I am paying] a "risk premium" to eliminate the risk of a TPA rejection on a raw item. It is all about fungibility for me. I only pay what I am willing to pay and I only buy what my eyes tell me is good based on my studies BUT if I ever want to resell profitably without relying on an AH, I need the TPA blessing on the item.

I'm gonna say a dirty word: "investment". I am not just a collector. Card are too damn expensive and I am not wealthy enough to treat the Hobby as a hobby. Everything I buy [except for memorabilia of my cousins] I purchase with an eye on the investment potential and resale value, albeit with a long holding period and/or some risks involved. That's one reason why my book only lists actual transaction prices rather than projected prices except where clearly stated as an opinion as to what I think something should cost; I don't want to be accused of pumping and dumping my own stuff. Everything I own [except for memorabiia of my cousins] is for sale--for the right price I will even help you carry it to your car. That said, I gotta be sure everything I own can be moved, sometimes on short notice, because my main business ebbs and flows.

I'm also gonna say a nice word: "aesthetics". I happen to like how cards look slabbed, and I sometimes get them slabbed for display purposes. I like the way they line up in holders, like a museum display for my own private hall of fame. Like these:

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by exhibitman

trav, you have the luxury of opting out of the tpa racket because you are an expert. If i want to sell something i do need to play the tpa game because i do not have a reputation as an autograph expert. Doesn't matter that the guy i bought it from is an expert or that i conclude that the item is good: That seller isn't there when i sell and my opinion doesn't carry the necessary weight with the consumer when it comes to autographs [yeah, i am an expert in boxing cards--sgc calls me with toughies--but not autographs]. I sent in the marciano because i wanted to have that tpa warranty for resale purposes. If they won't pass the item it is worthless to me as a seller.

Richard, of course the seller has bumped his price to cover the tpa fee. I don't care about that because i am not merely paying for the tpa fee, i am paying [and i acknowledge that i am paying] a "risk premium" to eliminate the risk of a tpa rejection on a raw item. It is all about fungibility for me. I only pay what i am willing to pay and i only buy what my eyes tell me is good based on my studies but if i ever want to resell profitably without relying on an ah, i need the tpa blessing on the item.

I'm gonna say a dirty word: "investment". I am not just a collector. Card are too damn expensive and i am not wealthy enough to treat the hobby as a hobby. Everything i buy [except for memorabilia of my cousins] i purchase with an eye on the investment potential and resale value, albeit with a long holding period and/or some risks involved. That's one reason why my book only lists actual transaction prices rather than projected prices except where clearly stated as an opinion as to what i think something should cost; i don't want to be accused of pumping and dumping my own stuff. Everything i own [except for memorabiia of my cousins] is for sale--for the right price i will even help you carry it to your car. That said, i gotta be sure everything i own can be moved, sometimes on short notice, because my main business ebbs and flows.

I'm also gonna say a nice word: "aesthetics". I happen to like how cards look slabbed, and i sometimes get them slabbed for display purposes. I like the way they line up in holders, like a museum display for my own private hall of fame. Like these:

like

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by travrosty

you only think they sell for a premium, they don't, and too many people have the 'i have to play ball' mentality, that allows psa and jsa to get away with what they get away with and not provide true customer service and an accurate opinion. they have too many customers 'playing ball' that they can do whatever they want and the customers come back for more, many of them even admitting they don't like it and think these companies leave a lot to be desired. The companies get away with it because the customers let them. If people withheld their dollars until they got their act together, they would have to change, but customers don't, so we just get a lot more of the same and it will be that way forever unless people wake up. I have sold hundreds and hundreds of boxing autographs at good prices and I didn't pay for the non-expert opinion of these companies.

disclosure: I have sent a grand total of two autographs to jsa a few years ago when i didn't know any better, and I realized no extra profit and actually a loss on an item because I got the same price that I would have gotten without authentication, and I couldn't recoup my authentication fee by an increase in sale price.

I know zero about boxing, but certed baseball autos certainly sell for more on eBay than uncerted.

[Plinvestments]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Adam - you have stated "I will either buy a slabbed/certed item" in your post.
Don't you think the seller has bumped up his price to cover his cost of the slabbed/certed item? You are paying for the cert/slab, just not directly to the TPA.

As a part-time seller, I wish that were the case. My view is that we have seen price contraction. TPA items sell at the same price as items pre-TPA days. Non-certified items sell for less.

[toybulldog]

But isn't the ultimate goal to purchase an authentic autograph? Does the Holyfield look legitimate or does it more resemble the common forged version next to it?


Does it even come close to resembling these examples of Holyfields vintage autograph? Would you rather have the Holyfield signed card above or the one below?



Why guarantee an item will pass a third party authenticator when the TPA doesn't even guarantee there opinion?

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by toybulldog

Why guarantee an item will pass a third party authenticator when the TPA doesn't even guarantee there opinion?

Because a lot of buyers want that TPA, for whatever reason (some take their word as gospel, some like the protection of a slab, some like uniformity in their collection, and most recognize the market that the TPAs have created and want greater resale value themselves). Whether or not a seller has/wants to use a TPA, buyers sure do. When I have listed autos on eBay without certs, all of the questions I get are about certs.

And what would it mean for a TPA to "guarantee" their opinion, anyway? If an item can be shown to be bunk, not by another person's opinion but actually proven to be a forgery a la laser copies, impossibly dated material, etc, then the TPAs should refund the cost of authentication. They aren't and shouldn't be responsible for the selling price of any item. It is an opinion, not an insurance policy.

[Exhibitman]

Truth is a slippery thing, Travis. Did you see any of the autographs you are labeling fake and real signed in person? If so, which ones? If not, with all due respect, your opinion as to everything you did not see signed is just an opinion, same as any TPA opinion is just an opinion. Unless I want to collect only what I personally saw signed, I have to rely on opinions. Since all we are really dealing in most of the time is opinion, whether an item "really really" was signed or not is unknowable and as such is entirely irrelevant to the market. Buyers like the TPA opinions. Buyers respect TPA opinions. Buyers pay for the TPA opinions. They don't care about my opinion. Or yours, unless you are a TPA issuing a LOA. If I market that Holyfield signed card raw I might get someone to take a risk for $10. In the slab I can get a multiple of that all day, every day. Is the one in the slab forged or real? I didn't see it signed, so I don't know. But if PSA is willing to slab it, as a seller I really don't care.

Try this one on for atypical signatures: Look at the Lennox Lewis in the PSA/DNA holder. How can we explain its lack of resemblance to the one below that I got myself at a promotional appearance for the Klitschko fight?

PSA version:



Card I got signed personally:



I can sell or trade the PSA version all day long; mine isn't worth a plugged nickel, though I enjoy it immensely since it reminds of me meeting the champ.

[toybulldog]

Is the one in the slab forged or real? I didn't see it signed, so I don't know. But if PSA is willing to slab it, as a seller I really don't care.

Selling something and really not caring if it's forged or real? I would hope integrity and conscience would be part of the equation.

Mark Ogren
Schenectady, NY

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by toybulldog

Selling something and really not caring if it's forged or real? I would hope integrity and conscience would be part of the equation.

Mark Ogren
Schenectady, NY

I believe his point, which is one I agree with, is that perception is reality in this area of collecting. Some people here like to say "Either the auto is real or it isn't." That is true, but unfortunately irrelevant, because all we have are opinions and opinions of those giving opinions.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

I believe his point, which is one I agree with, is that perception is reality in this area of collecting. Some people here like to say "Either the auto is real or it isn't." That is true, but unfortunately irrelevant, because all we have are opinions and opinions of those giving opinions.

That is exactly correct, Wayne; thank you for not purposefully misrepresenting my point. One of the things that absolutely drives me nuts in this field is the substitution of opinion for fact and the demand for fact when opinion is all that is available. Unless I was standing there watching the subject sign I cannot state as fact that an autograph is authentic: I must rely on what an eyewitness tells me [hearsay] or the opinion of an expert. Since I cannot testify from firsthand experience of the signing as to all but a few items I own, the most I can do is offer an opinion. I do not have the cachet or expertise to offer a marketable opinion so I hire an expert to do it for me. Hopefully I hire a good one, but as long as I hire one whose opinions are generally accepted by the buyers in the pertinent marketplaces and that expert renders an opinion, what I think is irrelevant and what the unknowable ultimate facts are likewise are irrelevant. As the ultimate fact is unknowable and irrelevant, I do not care whether an item is "real" as many colloquially put it; I care that I do not mislead anyone about what I am offering.

Anyone who collects or trades in signatures ultimately is trading in opinions, not facts. I know some folks don't like to admit that, but it is the inescapable truth.

[RichardSimon]

Quote from Adam in post 39:"I didn't see it signed, so I don't know (if it is real). But if PSA is willing to slab it, as a seller I really don't care."

Originally Posted by toybulldog

Selling something and really not caring if it's forged or real? I would hope integrity and conscience would be part of the equation.

Mark Ogren
Schenectady, NY

Boy if the top quote is not one of the major things wrong in the autograph hobby then I don't know what is. I know I really, really care if something is real when I sell it, my reputation is on the line with every sale, and if someone GAVE ME a slabbed PSA piece that I believed was not real, I would drop it down the chute of the incinerator room on the floor of my apt. bldg.

[cjedmonton]

Okay, so I should go with GAI, then?

Sorry, couldn't resist. Such an entertaining/informative thread...only wish I had something more to contribute other than the OP.

[Plinvestments]

TPAs are like US dollars. With our debt problems in this country, a dollar is probably not worth a dollar. You're better off holding gold or loonies or kronas. However, the last time I checked, I couldn't fill my enlarged belly at McDonald's with kronas. Therefore, the ol mighty dollar is still king.

On another note, Richard mentioned how "the hobby" is being ruined. I think there needs to be a clarification. The autograph market and autograph hobby are distinctly different. amazon entered the memorabilia business because they said the $4 billion market was to hard to ignore. What portion of that do you attribute to hobbyists? I would guess less than 5% of that. The rest buy autographs for the art/display factor or recreation factor. They are not that concerned about value. I compare them to people who buy prints on cruise ships. They are not art collectors and the pieces they buy are for aesthetics, not collector value.

The hobbyists are very well informed. They know what they want, how to detect fakes, and know who they can buy from. Richard does a stellar job servicing the hobby. However, more generalist dealers serve the entire market, which includes the rest of the 95%. those are the people who request/demand and see value in tpa's.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by cjedmonton

Okay, so I should go with GAI, then?

Ask me on Monday when they open...

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Quote from Adam in post 39:"I didn't see it signed, so I don't know (if it is real). But if PSA is willing to slab it, as a seller I really don't care."




Boy if the top quote is not one of the major things wrong in the autograph hobby then I don't know what is. I know I really, really care if something is real when I sell it, my reputation is on the line with every sale, and if someone GAVE ME a slabbed PSA piece that I believed was not real, I would drop it down the chute of the incinerator room on the floor of my apt. bldg.

What I wrote was: "Is the one in the slab forged or real? I didn't see it signed, so I don't know. But if PSA is willing to slab it, as a seller I really don't care."

Your example is colorful but it assumes facts not in evidence, as they say in my profession. I did not say that I do not care if something is fake. If I believe something is fake I certainly would not sell it; arguing against that straw man is a misrepresentation of my views. My point was and is that in the absence of evidence I can understand--like a card made after a player's death with a signature or a preprint mistakenly labeled as genuine--if I do not know the answer and if I hired an expert to opine for me, I will not contradict the expert's opinion with my own guess and I therefore am not concerned with whether an objectively unknowable fact is true. I hire a professional whose work is accepted in the market and I rely on that professional's expertise, just as someone hires me to explain the nuances of a commercial lease. The entire autograph business is based on opinions rather than facts, and when nobody knows the ultimate fact [whether the person really held and signed the item], it becomes irrelevant.

Anyone who collects or sells autographs has a very simple choice: collect only what you get yourself in person or through trusted associates and friends or rely on [presumably] expert opinions including your own as to what you are buying. But if you decide to collect or sell anything not signed in your presence, then let's not continue to pretend that establishing the authenticity of such items is objective in nature. It can't be objective given the lack of hard facts and by definition you are relying on an expert's opinion. Now, if you want to accuse me of hiding behind the opinions of professional experts, OK, you got me. I plead guilty to doing the same thing with sports memorabilia that I do with my car, my computer, my plumbing, etc.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

What I wrote was: "Is the one in the slab forged or real? I didn't see it signed, so I don't know. But if PSA is willing to slab it, as a seller I really don't care."

Your example is colorful but it assumes facts not in evidence, as they say in my profession. I did not say that I do not care if something is fake. If I believe something is fake I certainly would not sell it; arguing against that straw man is a misrepresentation of my views. My point was and is that in the absence of evidence I can understand--like a card made after a player's death with a signature or a preprint mistakenly labeled as genuine--if I do not know the answer and if I hired an expert to opine for me, I will not contradict the expert's opinion with my own guess and I therefore am not concerned with whether an objectively unknowable fact is true. I hire a professional whose work is accepted in the market and I rely on that professional's expertise, just as someone hires me to explain the nuances of a commercial lease. The entire autograph business is based on opinions rather than facts, and when nobody knows the ultimate fact [whether the person really held and signed the item], it becomes irrelevant.

Anyone who collects or sells autographs has a very simple choice: collect only what you get yourself in person or through trusted associates and friends or rely on [presumably] expert opinions including your own as to what you are buying. But if you decide to collect or sell anything not signed in your presence, then let's not continue to pretend that establishing the authenticity of such items is objective in nature. It can't be objective given the lack of hard facts and by definition you are relying on an expert's opinion. Now, if you want to accuse me of hiding behind the opinions of professional experts, OK, you got me. I plead guilty to doing the same thing with sports memorabilia that I do with my car, my computer, my plumbing, etc.

I love it.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Truth is a slippery thing, Travis. Did you see any of the autographs you are labeling fake and real signed in person? If so, which ones? If not, with all due respect, your opinion as to everything you did not see signed is just an opinion, same as any TPA opinion is just an opinion. Unless I want to collect only what I personally saw signed, I have to rely on opinions. Since all we are really dealing in most of the time is opinion, whether an item "really really" was signed or not is unknowable and as such is entirely irrelevant to the market. Buyers like the TPA opinions. Buyers respect TPA opinions. Buyers pay for the TPA opinions. They don't care about my opinion. Or yours, unless you are a TPA issuing a LOA. If I market that Holyfield signed card raw I might get someone to take a risk for $10. In the slab I can get a multiple of that all day, every day. Is the one in the slab forged or real? I didn't see it signed, so I don't know. But if PSA is willing to slab it, as a seller I really don't care.

Try this one on for atypical signatures: Look at the Lennox Lewis in the PSA/DNA holder. How can we explain its lack of resemblance to the one below that I got myself at a promotional appearance for the Klitschko fight?

PSA version:



Card I got signed personally:



I can sell or trade the PSA version all day long; mine isn't worth a plugged nickel, though I enjoy it immensely since it reminds of me meeting the champ.

there is so much wrong with everything you said i cant even start.

[ibuysportsephemera]

Originally Posted by travrosty

there is so much wrong with everything you said i cant even start.

Why....I think Adam is doing an amazing job of describing how many of us feel about the autograph part of this hobby. I never got into autographs because I could never get comfortable if I didn't see something signed in person. That is just me and I certainly do not criticize people who enjoy autographs as much as I enjoy my publications, photos, tickets, etc.

Jeff