Was I Shilled??

[bcookie]

i just won this auction, but do you think this is normal bidding? http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=350557171724

[Chris D.]

The account has a 100% bid activity with that seller and has bid on 19 different auctions from that seller.

[bobbyw8469]

Yes. I have no doubt you were 100% shilled.

[chaddurbin]

shilling is a strong word...the seller had a "hidden reserve" placed.

if the price is still good go through with it, if not complain to ebay.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

shilling is a strong word...the seller had a "hidden reserve" placed.

if the price is still good go through with it, if not complain to ebay.

+1

I have never cared about shilling because I have never paid a certain price for something that I wasn't comfortable paying. Shilling = hidden reserve. Sneaky and illegal and fraudulent? Yes. But I try to not get upset by it.

[D. Bergin]

Based on the auctions they've had ended in the past week and the bidding history of that bidder. It looks like most of those other bids were for "Buy It Nows".

Seems odd to jump to the conclusion of shilling based on a single auction, just because it's a new bidder.

I always thought it strange the mentality that everybody who bids in Ebay auctions is going to evenly spread out their bids between multiple sellers, within a 30 day window.

[tbob]

I don't think you were shilled. It looks like the auction was at less than $500 as it wound down and 5 or 6 bidders had snipe bids which all kicked in at once, within a second or two of each other, which drove the price up. I don't see the "shilling" pattern I have seen with other cards.

[Donscards]

Sure looks funny to me---Underbidder has 0 feedback and if he didnt bid, you would have won the auction for under $1500 instead of $2175---I would watch the underbidder and see what he bids on next---but too late now on this auction---Still a nice piece. Don

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Donscards

Sure looks funny to me---Underbidder has 0 feedback and if he didnt bid, you would have won the auction for under $1500 instead of $2175---I would watch the underbidder and see what he bids on next---but too late now on this auction---Still a nice piece. Don

The final 6 bids were snipes placed in the last 10 seconds of the auction by different bidders.

There's no telling how many snipes in that time span didn't even register because of the leap in bidding and the timing of the snipes.

[danmckee]

Blatant shill, only an idiot can't see that. 0% bidder with 100% of the time bidding with just that seller. Blatant shill. No newbe registers and then bids 19 times with just one seller on different items.

[botn]

Originally Posted by tbob

I don't think you were shilled. It looks like the auction was at less than $500 as it wound down and 5 or 6 bidders had snipe bids which all kicked in at once, within a second or two of each other, which drove the price up. I don't see the "shilling" pattern I have seen with other cards.

I don't follow the logic at all. Seems pretty obvious to me the bidding pattern of the 0 feedback bidder constitutes a shill.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by danmckee

Blatant shill, only an idiot can't see that. 0% bidder with 100% of the time bidding with just that seller. Blatant shill. No newbe registers and then bids 19 times with just one seller on different items.

Well I guess I'm an idiot. Thanks man.

Looks like they were shilling "Buy It Now" auctions. Guess the shiller must be even stupider then me.

[Anthony S.]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Looks like they were shilling "Buy It Now" auctions. Guess the shiller must be even stupider then me.

How can you see who the buyer was who won a Buy it Now auction? Obviously you can see it when they leave feedback, but until then there isn't any way of knowing, is there? I just checked the seller's feedback and he hasn't received any feedback from a zero level buyer all year.

[glchen]

Easier to "shill" BIN's because then the shiller/seller can just have one big Nonpayment case for stuff that wasn't selling anyway as opposed to auction items that were getting real bids.

Saying that, I believe the final price of the lot was very reasonable.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Anthony S.

How can you see who the buyer was who won a Buy it Now auction? Obviously you can see it when they leave feedback, but until then there isn't any way of knowing, is there? I just checked the seller's feedback and he hasn't received any feedback from a zero level buyer all year.

Seller has two actual auctions ended in the last 15 days.

New bidder has bid in exactly 1 actual auction in that time span, on the item indicated.

Every other bid, is a single bid on a different item spread out over the last week. Indicating they are all "Buy It Nows", because the seller did not have any auctions listed at the time those bids were placed.

I'm actually dumbfounded I'm the only one who sees this..............or is it everybody is so damn willing to shout "shill", they refuse to.




I'm about as confused as I've ever been. Hell maybe I am just a F*#*n' idiot.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by glchen

Easier to "shill" BIN's because then the shiller/seller can just have one big Nonpayment case for stuff that wasn't selling anyway as opposed to auction items that were getting real bids.

Saying that, I believe the final price of the lot was very reasonable.

Really, you think this well known seller, created a new account..........shilled 18 Buy It Now" auctions to make a non-payment case on them, shielding them from suspicion so they can make a shill bid on this one auction item?

Wouldn't have been simpler to just create a new account, don't shill those "Buy It Nows!" Place the bids in that auction and say it's just a newbie customer of ours who signed up with Ebay to place this bid?

[chaddurbin]

looking at it again i think dave makes alot of sense. seems like the seller gives feedback right away when buyers pay...OP can wait a few days to see who the underbidder is and if he's legit.

[bcbgcbrcb]

I agree with the shill bidding and the fact that it was a nice pick-up for the price anyway.

[packs]

I don't buy into hidden reserves. You have an option to put a reserve on your item. If you don't, then you're agreeing to accept whatever the item sells for at auction.

[Bridwell]

Looks like a shill to me. A guy with 0 feedback bids on 19 different items in the last week, all from the same seller. Doesn't he want to buy from anybody else on ebay? I think you have reason to report this to ebay.

[alanu]

If it's reported to ebay, and they determine it's shilling, does anyone know what happens?

Does the buyer get to purchase the item at a lower price or do they just get to choose whether they still want to purchase the item or not?

Does the seller lose their seller account or just get some sort of "strike" against them?

-Alan

[bcookie]

Originally Posted by alanu

If it's reported to ebay, and they determine it's shilling, does anyone know what happens?

Does the buyer get to purchase the item at a lower price or do they just get to choose whether they still want to purchase the item or not?

Does the seller lose their seller account or just get some sort of "strike" against them?

-Alan

i would like to know also because i do not want to lose the lot

[Matthew H]

I'm actually leaning towards not shill... Why would someone snipe a shill bid? Doesn't really make sense..

Also I believe dave is right about all the BIN's, Why would he purchase his own BINs? That just adds suspicion I think.

His second bid of 461 is odd, what's the point of shilling $10 on a lot like this, $2150 is also a weird shill number. I'd be more suspicious if his final bid was 2k. $2150 seem more like a number from a guy that wants to pay a max of 2k but doesn't want to lose the lot over an extra hundred.

[tbob]

Originally Posted by danmckee

Blatant shill, only an idiot can't see that. 0% bidder with 100% of the time bidding with just that seller. Blatant shill. No newbe registers and then bids 19 times with just one seller on different items.

Thanks Dan, appreciate the kind words....

[danmckee]

Sorry Tbob. this one seems obvious

A snipe on a shill ensures your minimum bid

easy call here, sorry

blatant shill!

[rainier2004]

Looks like a shill to me...I guess kudos to those of you that doesnt bother, but at this point Im tired of ANY dishonest activity including shilling in the hobby and shilling is dishonest. If you have a reserve then why not just do a BIN? Those other final bids in the last few seconds didnt get over $1415...thats an additional $700+ based on a single 0-feedback bidder w/ 100% activity with one guy. I know other snipes may have been washed away but smells like BS to me. - Steve Suckow

[danmckee]

Blatant shill and morons who don't care are idiots in my opinion! It is fraudulent dealings and I don't care if you are lawyers or not!!!!

[vintagetoppsguy]

I'm in the minority here. I don't think it's a shill either.

[abothebear]

Its obvious to me what has happened here. The bidder is using the wrong search bar and is accidentally only searching this one seller's items. He doesn't even realize there is a huge world of ebay out there to buy from. Poor guy, and he lost the auction to boot.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by danmckee

Blatant shill and morons who don't care are idiots in my opinion! It is fraudulent dealings and I don't care if you are lawyers or not!!!!

Morons who care are also idiots by definition.

[steve B]

A suspect pattern isn't always shilling.

I was the underbidder on a cycling jersey from the 48 olympics, but got a second chance offer about a half hour after it ended. The pattern looked like a clasic shill. Newish bidder, all activity with the one seller. (Sound familiar?)

I decided to let the second chance offer go till later, but not to report anything.

About a month and a half later a second jersey was offered by the same seller. The first one had stains from poor storage. The second one didn't.
I won the second one for a good deal less than the first sold for.

I checked the other bidder again just to see if the pattern held.
Nope, over the weeks in between they had bid on stuff from about 20 different sellers winning about 25% of the time.

The seller was the son of the rider in 48 and had raced himself in 64. And his grandfather raced in the 28 olympics. I've picked up some other great stuff from him, and I'm very glad I didn't accuse him of shilling.

Steve B

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by abothebear

Its obvious to me what has happened here. The bidder is using the wrong search bar and is accidentally only searching this one seller's items. He doesn't even realize there is a huge world of ebay out there to buy from. Poor guy, and he lost the auction to boot.

This particular seller is well known in England. They could have been a regular on their website or mailing list and registered with Ebay to make it easier to buy from them.

I've sent Ebay plenty of new bidders through my website through the years.

Is it an Ebay rule to "spread the wealth around" when you sign up with them?

How do you explain almost every single one of these supposed "shill bids" are "Buy It Nows"?

I don't even buy that much on Ebay anymore. But I've had plenty of months I've only bought from 1 or 2 sellers.

Seems people jumped the gun and are being stubborn here, and not paying attention to any actual facts.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by danmckee

Blatant shill and morons who don't care are idiots in my opinion! It is fraudulent dealings and I don't care if you are lawyers or not!!!!

Well, this idiot thinks you are being reactionary and stubborn. How do you explain almost every bid by this "shiller" is on a "Buy It Now" auction?

[Bilko G]

Originally Posted by danmckee

blatant shill, only an idiot can't see that.

like and agree

[calvindog]

I haven't bothered to read this whole thread because frankly I'm stunned that there could possibly be so many opinions on this one. If you cannot see a shill bidding scenario here, with all respect, you are a fu&$@g idiot.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Seems people jumped the gun and are being stubborn here, and not paying attention to any actual facts.

One of my pet peeves about this community is its propensity to do just that.

I don't have a dog in this fight -- other than being called an idiot moron for not caring about shill bidding -- but I often pull my hair out by a lack of critical thinking here. Just because you are not getting engaged on your points doesn't make them invalid.

If I actually cared about "when auctions get shilled" I would have reviewed the facts here. But since I don't care a whit about being shilled myself, coming to the aid of other people who are concerned about getting shilled just isn't my cup of tea.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I haven't bothered to read this whole thread because frankly I'm stunned that there could possibly be so many opinions on this one. If you cannot see a shill bidding scenario here, with all respect, you are a fu&$@g idiot.

How about you read the whole thread then, before calling someone a fu&$@g idiot?




What you guys are saying is one newbie bidder, placing a snipe bid in a single auction is a definite shill bidding account...........and if you don't believe this, you are a f*%&ng idiot?

Every other bid in their history is for a "Buy It Now"!

[rainier2004]

How does everyone conclude the guy w/ 0 feedback set a snipe? The bid was entered with 7 seconds left...that how I do it and dont belong to a snipe service. If it were a snipe is that relevant and how? Thanks to anyone for some help here...

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

How does everyone conclude the guy w/ 0 feedback set a snipe? The bid was entered with 7 seconds left...that how I do it and dont belong to a snipe service. If it were a snipe is that relevant and how? Thanks to anyone for some help here...

I'm using snipe as a generic term for a last second bid. Not necessarily that he used a sniping service to put the bid in.

[calvindog]

Dave, I don't need to read the whole thread. I understand that clucking hens like to see a conspiracy behind every shadow in order to make things more interesting for them on this forum. God forbid one just looks at the facts as laid out without trying to be counter-intuitive. It's a shill. The only way it could be more obvious would be if the underbidder's ebay name was BILL MASTRO. But I understand the reticence of some posters here to call a spade a spade -- many here think that shill bidding is ok as long as you don't pay more than what you wanted for a card.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Dave, I don't need to read the whole thread. I understand that clucking hens like to see a conspiracy behind every shadow in order to make things more interesting for them on this forum. God forbid one just looks at the facts as laid out without trying to be counter-intuitive. It's a shill. The only way it could be more obvious would be if the underbidder's ebay name was BILL MASTRO. But I understand the reticence of some posters here to call a spade a spade -- many here think that shill bidding is ok as long as you don't pay more than what you wanted for a card.

Why do you think it's obvious?

The timing of every other bid in that history indicates a "Buy It Now", because the seller didn't even have any auctions running at the time those bids were placed.

Is it simply because it's a "0" feedback bidder?

[camlov2]

Looking at the other items for sale in the last few weeks I can't put together 15 items that make sense. I don't understand the bidding on Buy-it-now items but I also don't understand any connection between this Babe Ruth album and the rest of the sellers items (except 3-4 yankee cards).

I would guess shill, would be interesting to revisit this buyers info in a couple weeks. (and also see if any feedback ever appears).

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by camlov2

Looking at the other items for sale in the last few weeks I can't put together 15 items that make sense. I don't understand the bidding on Buy-it-now items but I also don't understand any connection between this Babe Ruth album and the rest of the sellers items (except 3-4 yankee cards).

I would guess shill, would be interesting to revisit this buyers info in a couple weeks. (and also see if any feedback ever appears).

They sell oddball International tobacco and trading cards.

There doesn't have to be any other Babe Ruth or Yankee connection.

I know lots of collectors who have very eclectic tastes and don't pigeon hole themselves into a particular category.

Murray's Cards have been around for decades. I'm sure they have plenty such customers.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Many here think that shill bidding is ok as long as you don't pay more than what you wanted for a card.

+1 (Do I recognize it is fraudulent behavior according to the law and our societal expectations? Sure. Do I care when it happens to me? Not in the least. Consider me blissfully ignorant.)

[calvindog]

And the perfect fraud victim.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by calvindog

And the perfect fraud victim.

+1

I try not to bid more than I should but I should also get a good buy if no one else bids legitimately. Hell yes I care if I am shilled. If someone doesn't want to sell an item for a lower than they want amount then there are legitimate ways to do that. Shilling isn't one of them.

[ctownboy]

Wow, people paying more than they otherwise would and they don't mind?

This either means they have so much money it doesn't really matter or they have more money than sense. Either way, I have a deal for you.

Since you don't mind spending more on something than you otherwise would, the next time you guys decide to spend X amount on something but get it for Y (a lesser amount) I will (if you send me a private E mail) give you my PayPal address. That way, you still get the thing you wanted for the amount you wanted to pay.

For example, you want a certain T206 card and are willing to pay $100 dollars for it. However, at auction end, you win it for $65 dollars. So you have an extra $35 dollars you didn't plan on having. Just send that extra $35 dollars my way.....

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

And the perfect fraud victim.

What can I say? I like being fraudulently induced to buy baseball cards at prices I am comfortable paying. You can fraudulently induce me into that kind of racket all day and all night. I'm not looking for bargains based on some puritanical expectation of an auction format. I'm happy to pay what the seller wants me to pay, if I'm happy with the price. Most of the time there is a big fat sticker in a grocery aisle. Sometimes the seller plays games. Never have I paid money involuntarily.

On this one, I think it is pretty evident that a new guy joined ebay in order to buy some of this guy's BINs, and then he saw this album at auction and was interested in bidding.

The only way you can prove that this was a shill based on the objective facts that we have today is if you can explain all the prior BIN purchases. If you are ignoring the prior BIN purchases you are not willing to engage in a serious discussion on this topic. Period.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

Wow, people paying more than they otherwise would and they don't mind?

I have no problem playing in hypotheticals, but your fundamental misunderstanding of what I am saying is in your first question "People paying more than they otherwise would".

I do not think that an auction with a shill means I am not getting an item for less than I "otherwise would." Sellers who shill take that into account when they list items. If you could stop shilling 100%, you would not open a world of cheap goods for yourself. You'd open a world of higher prices disclosed at the beginning. In either world, you pay the same. That's why I don't care.

What all "Shill-Haters" want is the price that the item would have sold for if there was no shill, right? When I turn back the clock, I don't stop at the time of the shill bid. I go back to the auction beginning. If you could tie the seller's hands as a shiller before he listed the item he never would have listed the item at the price he did. He'd have set an open reserve or a higher minimum bid.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

The only way you can prove that this was a shill based on the objective facts that we have today is if you can explain all the prior BIN purchases. If you are ignoring the prior BIN purchases you are not willing to engage in a serious discussion on this topic. Period.

Quit using logic on these people. It's not working.