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#1
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: peter chao
Guys, |
#2
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: Steve f
from www.blackbetsy.com excellent (but biased) site |
#3
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: Mike
He "never played without shoes". i have to go to a meeting, but I sure many people can chime in on his nick name, but no, he never once played without shoes. Very simple story realy. |
#4
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: Mike
Tell me you've seen "Field of Dreams", right??? |
#5
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: peter chao
Mike, Guys |
#6
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: MVSNYC
joe jackson is the BEST player not in the Hall from ANY era. |
#7
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: Justin
Surely the answer is Dave Kingman. |
#8
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: davidcycleback
Pete Rose was better than Joe Jackson. |
#9
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: MVSNYC
dave- that is debatable... |
#10
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: Frank Wakefield
I agree, Rose was better... at domestic violence, crimes, a greater record of gambling for a longer time, Pete's in the Gambling Hall of Fame (I don't think Joe is), better at selling his signature. Pete was better than Joe at everything other than hitting a baseball, playing the game, and maybe reading. |
#11
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: Justin
Jackson's career was relatively short so it's difficult to know what he would have down in the live era. Would he have stated to hit for homeruns? When would he have declined. |
#12
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: peter chao
Guys, |
#13
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: MVSNYC
guys, maybe it's just me, but in order to measure a great player (specifically a hitter), IMO, batting average has to be at the top of the list...Joe hit .356 lifetime! and that was during the deadball era...Pete (who i love, don't get me wrong), has a lifetime avg. of .303...of course he has so many more hits, but look at the "at bats": |
#14
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: E, Daniel
So it was extremely hard when trying to decide whether or not to even collect a card of his.... |
#15
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: Justin
I think you have to take into consideration longevity. Shoeless Joe didn't really leave his peak, so no one knows how he would have looked at age 37. Also Pete won multiple batting titles, while Joe won exactly zero. Admittedly beating Ty Cobb is no easy feat, but you figure he would have wone at least one. Rose dominated his era as a hitter probably to a greater extent than Joe in his if one looks solely at batting averages. |
#16
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: peter chao
Guys, |
#17
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: davidcycleback
I was offering my opinion that Rose was a better player than Jackson. I wasn't suggesting that it wasn't debatable, or that it was wrong to disagree with me. |
#18
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: Dan Bretta
Good Lord! Pete Rose isn't even in the same league as Joe Jackson. Jackson's lifetime OPS (on base % + Slugging) is .940 - Rose's is .782. |
#19
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: peter chao
Dan, |
#20
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: MVSNYC
i agree Dan. |
#21
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: Dan Bretta
Ummmmm.....??? 1917 The Chicago White Sox beat the New York Giants in the World Series. |
#22
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: E, Daniel
How much do you recall at all about Shoeless? |
#23
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: Dan Bretta
Joe Jackson is one of the top 10 greatest hitters who ever played. Rose doesn't even rank in the top 100. |
#24
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: peter chao
Guys, |
#25
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: MVSNYC
i'll buy seats above the dugout for that game... |
#26
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: Joe Jones
You would think that being a farm boy from that time period, Joe would know how to hussle and work just as much as Rose could. |
#27
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: Dan Bretta
Pete, I still don't get it. Jackson was far more important to his team over the entire season. Why would you still want Rose for the season? |
#28
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: peter chao
Dan, |
#29
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: MVSNYC
peter- with that said... |
#30
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: peter chao
MVSYNC, |
#31
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: MVSNYC
Peter- do you happen to live in Cinci, by any chance? |
#32
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: Anonymous
I think the point being missed here is that Shoeless Joe never had to play past his prime, he never declined, so it's impossible to say with complete certainty how he would have fared. I am guessing George Sisler career numbers looked pretty phenomenal at age 33, but he fell off pretty dramitically. Longevity counts here. I will concede that Jackson's peak value was greater than Rose's. |
#33
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: peter chao
Guys, |
#34
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: JK
Sorry, but that last post doesnt make sense. You admit that Jackson was a phenom - meaning a person of remarkable talent or ability - and then argue that there is no reason to believe that after 13 years of great play, its unlikely he could keep it going ala Rose and Cobb? Wouldnt a phenom be exactly the type of player you would expect to keep it going? |
#35
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: Dan Bretta
Pete Rose played about 4-5 years too long - he was a detriment to his team in those final years. Benching better players and inserting himself into the lineup to chase a hit record. No doubt he was a great punch and judy hitter with a lot of hustle in his younger days - he just can NOT be mentioned in the same breath with Joe Jackson when it comes to being a GREAT hitter. It's not even close - Pete Rose should be compared to Tony Oliva, not Cobb or Jackson or any other of the all time greats. |
#36
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: JK
Jackson: |
#37
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: Joe Pelaez
He was one of the special ones of the deadball era, and he would have been special during the Rose era. ... no comparison. |
#38
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: MVSNYC
like i said 3 days ago... |
#39
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: peter chao
Guys, |
#40
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: John Kalafarski
Someone will help me with this. I've seen a brief clip of Joe swinging the bat: he swung so hard that his follow through nearly cast him to the ground. Kind of like Gary Sheffield times ten. I just finished listening to The Glory of Their Times tape again and someone spoke of Joe's swing as being particularly vicious. Also, wasn't his outfield post known as "the place where doubles went to die." Ted Williams was a huge booster of Joe for the Hall. See his essay on Joe in Ted Williams, My Life in Pictures. |
#41
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: George Dreher
Joe Jackson continued to play semipro baseball until 1939! |
#42
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: MVSNYC
peter- |
#43
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: Brian
Joe Jackson's lifetime OPS+ is 170. This means Joe was 70% better than the league he played in. Pete Rose's lifetime OPS+ is 118. This means Pete was 18% better than the league he played in. Joe dominated his league 3 1/2 times more than Pete dominated his -- over the course of a career. |
#44
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: James Gallo
Guys |
#45
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: peter chao
James, |
#46
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: howard
Based on the one year Joe jackson played in the live ball era (.382/12HR/121RBI) I'd say he was a good candidate to put up huge numbers for a few more years. He might even have raised his career BA as did Tris Speaker post 1919. |
#47
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: Mike Snyder
You know, even though Joe Jackson and Pete Rose are not officially inducted in the to Baseball hall of fame, their careers are certainly both honored. |
#48
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: barrysloate
Is Joe leaning on a bat or is he just happy to see us? |
#49
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: Mike Snyder
I believe that piece of wood is known as Black Betsy! |
#50
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Shoeless Joe Jackson
Posted By: peter chao
I don't see how Shoeless Joe can go an entire season using Black Betsy without cracking the wood or otherwise damaging the bat. Did the ballplayers do something to the bat to make it last longer. |
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