Just how important is certification/Authentication ?

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Posted By: Rich Klein

Look at the Chief Meyers card noted in Vanessa's thread about the Ruth and Gehrig autograph.

Looking at the scan of the EBay sale and looking at the American Memorabila sale; the major difference is that the American Memorabilia HAS the JSA logo attached to the card; whilst the Ebay sale only said that this card would pass muster (which it did).

I know we discuss this all the time on the board -- and some of the arguments can get personal (which makes for fun train wrecks and entertaining evenings) but I'd prefer we have one discussion which does not fall into that.

So, the question is:

How often are you willing to buy something pre-War WITHOUT having it certified by an card grading service or an authentication service for autographs, etc.

If you are, give a concrete example or 2 as to how you determined an item was good; if not -- tell us why not

Regards
Rich

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Posted By: T206Collector

The sale and resale that Rich referenced are here:

Compare this card purchased on ebay a few months ago:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=130160776548&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=003

...with the same card sold at auction a few weeks ago:

http://americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=40280


To me the biggest difference is not the certification, but the forum. I have been buying and selling signed T206 cards from "the Pittsburgh Find" since April. What I can tell you is that when I have resold these cards with a certification by SGC/JSA, there is a marginal increase in value. But it is in the realm of $100-$200 -- not $1,000. When these cards sell on ebay, they tend to go for $200 - $300 raw and $300 to $400 authenticated. And the reason for that is that most of the same people who would bid on the authenticated ones would also bid on the not authenticated ones -- but primarily from THIS collection. That is, those of us that have been tracking the slow breakup of this collection understand that they are real (except for the Harry Covaleski cards, which are secretarial). As such, we bid on them raw or encapsulated -- and we bid the same.

Now, take the American Memorabilia auction (or even the October Huggins and Scott Auction that had the Rucker/Snodgrass sell for $1,200), what you have there is two bidders ratcheting up the card(s). That is, the market for signed T206 cards is a little bit more of a specialty niche and, as such, two people may just "have to have" the card because it will never come up again. On ebay, these bidders just set their snipes and walk away. On American Memorabilia, they go after each other until the auction ends.

That's my take. Oh, and I am going to test my theory a little further by consigning one or two more doubles to REA at the end of the month.

T206Collector

Visit www.t206collector.com for card galleries, articles and more!

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Posted By: G. Maines

Two years ago I was a lot more confident in my ability to spot a fake card on line than I am today. During the past several years the skill and techniques of the fakers have resulted in far more convincing offerings.

Fortunately I have virtually no uncertainties when faced with the card in person. But I do not want to wind up with an eBay fake and have to rely on the guarantee of the faker that he will refund my money.

Therefore, when I buy unslabbed cards, I require the seller to have a well documented reputation. And I recognize that the current quality of the fakes could (rarely, but sometimes) result in one getting by him.

Is grading worth the extra cost?
Is insurance?

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

In regard to cards, authentication is important if I should want to resell it. As to giving me piece of mind as to what I bought, I would characterize it as useful (not essential). The card's provenance would mean a lot more to me.

In regard to memorabilia, provenance to me is much more important than authentication. Almost every non-autographed piece of memorabilia I own is not authenticated. However, in each instance I spent as much time as necessary researching the item in order to satisfy myself of its authenticity. In regard to autographs, authentication in and of itself is not enough. If the piece doesn't meet other criteria (e.g., provenance, "looking right, making sense (being historically accurate) and not being too good to be true"), I will probably shy away. Letters that come out of nowhere with unbelievable content (e.g., Honus Wagner recounting the story behind the scarcity of his T206 card) would be an example of something that's too good to be true.

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Posted By: jeffdrum

if ever buy a non-graded card from someone I do not know or have not done business with before. Now I know that narrows my options fro adding to my collection..........but with the rampant fraud, that's the deal. Also their return policy is paramount to my comfort.

As we have discussed before ad nauseum, buying a graded card does not insure you are not buying an altered card. Besides I rarely collect higher than mid-grade.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Who is the seller? Jim Stinson and Richard Simon are highly respected autograph experts who sell, and an autograph from either of them is as reputable as one that comes with a PSA/DNA or JSA LOA (Simon would probably say more reputable). I believe both include their receipt or COA with purchase, so buyer will have relevant provenance documentation for posterity or resale.

It should be noted that the winner, either during or after auction, can get a PSA/DNA Quick Opinion on the autograph.

My opinion concerning autograph buying is the three key ten poles are 1) Who is the seller, 2)What is your or your friends' opinions as experienced collectors and 3) Does it have a certification from reputable outside company (ala PSA, JSA). If all three say the autograph looks genuine, you're in good shape. If it comes with a PSA LOA that's nice, but if you don't trust the seller or you think the autograph looks strange, you don't have to buy it.

Many autographs are easier for the collector to get a handle on on their own-- contract, used GPC or bank check easier to judge than 8x10 photo or snow white ball for example. You might not require a PSA LOA for a Bob Gibson bank check, but would really like their second opinion on a Gibson snow white ball as that is easier to forge.

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

Comfort level with the seller is vital when buying raw pre-war. Whether on Ebay, at a show or using BST you have to do some due diligence before you buy.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

The eBay seller has fine feedback, may be as reputable as the banana is yellow. The autograph he sold was later approved by JSA and he had a great authenticity guarantee. However, he's relatively unknown (as compared to a big auction house). This Meyers is a case were an autograph went from an unknown seller with no COA, to a well known auction house with JSA COA. The well known seller and JSA COA obviously was the difference-- and that's understandable. Maybe people buy to resell, and know good provenance and reputable COA can make all the difference upon resale. Even if you think PSA/DNA is dumb, like it or not many buyers think it's important. If you're a reseller, you'd be hurting yourself to dismiss what potential buyers want as they are the ones paying the money. You can consider JSA and PSA/DNA not as Gods but as second opinions giveres, and many people like to have second opinions on an item. If you are an eBay seller and preach about being wary of buying autographs from a seller who is a stranger (which is good advice to preach, by the way), realize that you yourself are sometimes that stranger. This explains why many potential bidders like it for you to include a COA, LOA, sticker, receipt, Quick Opinion, auction catalog page or other documentation from someone they do know.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

"You can consider JSA and PSA/DNA not as Gods but as second opinions giveres, and many people like to have second opinions on an item."

Sal Bando doesn't.