psa/jsa ty cobb controversy on HOS

[travrosty]

are the wheels coming off ty cobb?

judge for yourself.

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/?p=13860


kudos to hos for bringing forward the stories others are afraid of.


if these cobbs were offered by you know who and you know who, then you know who would be all over it declaring them the most putrid fakes ever seen and they cant even get the photo right?.

but its psa and jsa, so never mind.

[Big Dave]

That Cobb is an absolute joke...a lot worse then Morals, AAU , Frangipani, or others of this caliber have authenticated. But as stated...the big blind boys authenticated it....so it must be a pig with a dress on.

[travrosty]

only one other comment on this huge story means its working.

thanks big dave,

no one else want to comment on a huge breaking story?

a coaches corner/morales silly autograph that everyone knows is ??? gets a few dozen responses and outrage on how such autographs can be released on the public, but no comment here, huh?

oh well, guess they are pulling for psa and jsa to continue to do what they do.

[GrayGhost]

WEll, you seem to be on a witch hunt against these guys more often than anything else. Maybe people are getting tired of it.

It does seem tho that there are obvious mistakes made. Everyone needs to be accountable, be it these g uys or Joe Badalucca who saw his Granddad get Ty Cobb's autograph at Close Shave haircuts store in 1949

[vintagechris]

I don't think it is so much a witch hunt, but real concerns about their shoddy work. I have my own concerns and don't really trust the ABC guys either.

I posed this question long ago and got no reply so I will pose it again, especially knowing there is at least one poster on here who works for a major auction house, but what is the process of getting these things authenticated? Do they fly someone in? Who do they fly in? How long do they examine the stuff? How much stuff that is consigned doesn't pass? When looking at larger lots, do they pull things that are not authentic?

I ask this because I one bought a signed FB lot from an auction house that supposedly had been looked at by one of the ABC guys and it was loaded with obvious forgeries that even the most novice autograph collector would be able to tell and by loaded I mean over 30% obvious fakes.

Could it be that auction houses and authenticators alike make too much money off each other to really care?

I know for me I am not on a witch hunt, but I would like a little more accountability. I mean there really should be no reason to pass a photo copy as authentic, but they seem to get a pass for it as a simple mistake, at best it is complete and total negligence, at worse it is almost criminal.

[prewarsports]

Without ANY regard to the signature itself, old timers would pretty much sign whatever you sent them in the mail so Cobb himself if this item had been sent to him in the mail probably would not send it back unsigned and tell some kid "This aint me in this photo". Research and photo identification were not very goo back in the day so it really did used to happen. Plus he probably wouldn't even know it wasn't him as it looks pretty close

No comment on the signature itself, just want to let you guys know that it was not uncommon for players to sign photos that did not picture them back when they were signed TTM for free in the 1950's-1980's. If someone thought it was Cobb and sent it to him to sign, he would have signed it. Once agin though, NOT saying I like the autographs themselves in any way.

Rhys

[toybulldog]

Reminds me of the PSA/DNA lightweight champ Battling Nelson autograph signed on a photo of bantam and featherweight champ Terry McGovern which has been floating around in our hobby.




The authenticated one above or the real one below?

[Leon]

Travis- Just curious, why don't you ask your friend Nash how much fraud he has committed in the hobby?

[ibuysportsephemera]

Originally Posted by travrosty

only one other comment on this huge story means its working.

thanks big dave,

no one else want to comment on a huge breaking story?

a coaches corner/morales silly autograph that everyone knows is ??? gets a few dozen responses and outrage on how such autographs can be released on the public, but no comment here, huh?

oh well, guess they are pulling for psa and jsa to continue to do what they do.

Because Travis you are a one trick pony. Without even reading the thread, I know what you are going to say. I still don't understand why you continue to compare the alphabet boys with the roaches. In case you are curious, it comes off as defending the roaches...is that what you are doing?

Jeff

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by ibuysportsephemera

I still don't understand why you continue to compare the alphabet boys with the roaches.

Why, Jeff? I'll tell you why. Because nobody "in the hobby" gives a shit about the roaches, Morales, Priddy, et. al. None of them pose the slightest threat. They are a joke.

The "alphabet boys," on the other hand, are quite a different story. How many high-end, yet forged, pieces are sitting in top collections right now?

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by Leon

Travis- Just curious, why don't you ask your friend Nash how much fraud he has committed in the hobby?

Why, Leon, do you never post something similar to the above when a certain well-known board member testifies here to the authenticity (or lack thereof) of some Mantle, Williams, or Koufax autograph?

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Why, Leon, do you never post something similar to the above when a certain well-known board member testifies here to the authenticity (or lack thereof) of some Mantle, Williams, or Koufax autograph?

exactly! that's what i want to know.

the CC is a convenient diversion from the major problem at hand. i always said that the abc boys should be sending cc a check for taking the heat off of them.

leon, you are free to start your own thread, so go for it.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Why, Leon, do you never post something similar to the above when a certain well-known board member testifies here to the authenticity (or lack thereof) of some Mantle, Williams, or Koufax autograph?

exactly! that's what i want to know.

the CC is a convenient diversion from the major problem at hand. i always said that the abc boys should be sending cc a check for taking the heat off of them.

leon, you are free to start your own thread, so go for it.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by vintagechris

I don't think it is so much a witch hunt, but real concerns about their shoddy work. I have my own concerns and don't really trust the ABC guys either.

I posed this question long ago and got no reply so I will pose it again, especially knowing there is at least one poster on here who works for a major auction house, but what is the process of getting these things authenticated? Do they fly someone in? Who do they fly in? How long do they examine the stuff? How much stuff that is consigned doesn't pass? When looking at larger lots, do they pull things that are not authentic?

I ask this because I one bought a signed FB lot from an auction house that supposedly had been looked at by one of the ABC guys and it was loaded with obvious forgeries that even the most novice autograph collector would be able to tell and by loaded I mean over 30% obvious fakes.

Could it be that auction houses and authenticators alike make too much money off each other to really care?

I know for me I am not on a witch hunt, but I would like a little more accountability. I mean there really should be no reason to pass a photo copy as authentic, but they seem to get a pass for it as a simple mistake, at best it is complete and total negligence, at worse it is almost criminal.

they wont answer any of these questions because they dont want you to know how the sausage is made, and there isnt a big enough demand for it, most people just want the cert and the auction houses just want the stuff to pass. its apathy all around.

[travrosty]

Gray Ghost==

now seriously, i want to know why you are getting tired of it. is it lies, untruths, what????????????? you dont want people to know the truth about these companies?

what is it?

[ibuysportsephemera]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Why, Jeff? I'll tell you why. Because nobody "in the hobby" gives a shit about the roaches, Morales, Priddy, et. al. None of them pose the slightest threat. They are a joke.

The "alphabet boys," on the other hand, are quite a different story. How many high-end, yet forged, pieces are sitting in top collections right now?

For the record, I don't disagree with Travis about the alphabet boys. I just can't stand that in 90% of his posts he says the same general things over and over again (in his own thread and others). I guess I could block Travis, but sometimes he has some interesting things to say.

Jeff

[Leon]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Why, Leon, do you never post something similar to the above when a certain well-known board member testifies here to the authenticity (or lack thereof) of some Mantle, Williams, or Koufax autograph?

One has never paid his dues, as far as I am aware, nor has he ever admitted to any wrongdoing (again, that I am aware of) and one has. That is why.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by travrosty

exactly! that's what i want to know.

the CC is a convenient diversion from the major problem at hand. i always said that the abc boys should be sending cc a check for taking the heat off of them.

leon, you are free to start your own thread, so go for it.

This thread is just fine Travis. I have no issue with you taking companies to task but why don't you take Nash to task?

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Leon

This thread is just fine Travis. I have no issue with you taking companies to task but why don't you take Nash to task?

what is it about the subject matter i post that you dont like?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by travrosty

what is it about the subject matter i post that you dont like?

\

Where did I say I didn't like the subject matter? I said I have no issue with you taking companies to task. The board is very neutral on those issues.

That being said I did derail your thread so I will bow out of it. My apologies for taking it off topic.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Leon

One has never paid his dues, as far as I am aware, nor has he ever admitted to any wrongdoing (again, that I am aware of) and one has. That is why.

leon wants you to believe that if wistopher chrilliams started showing psa and jsa fakes and railing against them and the auction houses that let this stuff slide, he would be all on board and let's go full bore with it, but if pete starting getting on CC and morales case only, then leon would be incensed and would be against it with all his fiber.

yeah, right.!

[mighty bombjack]

Yet another reason not to blindly use these companies as your only source of information. Seems to be especially true for Cobb.

I'm more interested in this part of the article:

"Sources indicate that the FBI is aware of the serious problems with both JSA and PSA’s *track record of authenticating Cobb forgeries. *However, one other source, who was recently victimized purchasing over $10,000 in forgeries, told us that the FBI indicated they could not take their case because the dollar amount of the transaction was not substantial enough."

What sources indicate this, and what case could the FBI make against the alphabets? I was under the impression that their language of "opinion only" covered them from criminal negligence. Making mistakes in your job and providing shoddy service when mistakes are pointed out are not crimes. I would imagine it would be near impossible to prove any criminal intent or action here.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by Leon

One has never paid his dues, as far as I am aware, nor has he ever admitted to any wrongdoing (again, that I am aware of) and one has. That is why.

One was convicted in a criminal court of law, while the other has not.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

Yet another reason not to blindly use these companies as your only source of information. Seems to be especially true for Cobb.

I'm more interested in this part of the article:

"Sources indicate that the FBI is aware of the serious problems with both JSA and PSA’s *track record of authenticating Cobb forgeries. *However, one other source, who was recently victimized purchasing over $10,000 in forgeries, told us that the FBI indicated they could not take their case because the dollar amount of the transaction was not substantial enough."

What sources indicate this, and what case could the FBI make against the alphabets? I was under the impression that their language of "opinion only" covered them from criminal negligence. Making mistakes in your job and providing shoddy service when mistakes are pointed out are not crimes. I would imagine it would be near impossible to prove any criminal intent or action here.

If the FBI is looking into the ABC authenticators it cannot be for negligence. I have no first hand knowledge that the FBI is looking at them but if they are it is not for negligence.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

If the FBI is looking into the ABC authenticators it cannot be for negligence. I have no first hand knowledge that the FBI is looking at them but if they are it is not for negligence.

That's essentially what I'm saying. So what does it mean to say that he FBI is aware of their problems with authenticating Cobb? If they suck at it, what does the FBI care? I wonder if Nash is blowing smoke on that issue.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

That's essentially what I'm saying. So what does it mean to say that he FBI is aware of their problems with authenticating Cobb? If they suck at it, what does the FBI care? I wonder if Nash is blowing smoke on that issue.

Of course they are. It's always the phony baloney "according to sources" the FBI is investigating this TPA or that one. Allegedly they report the FBI was seen talking to PSA or JSA at the National and they try to spin it like they are being interrogated. Right... Like that's how the FBI conducts formal interviews.... on the busy floor of baseball card shows. It's pure wishful thinking and one of the standard talking points that is part of the coordinated campaign.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

Of course they are. It's always the phony baloney "according to sources" the FBI is investigating this TPA or that one. Allegedly they report the FBI was seen talking to PSA or JSA at the National and they try to spin it like they are being interrogated. Right... Like that's how the FBI conducts formal interviews.... on the busy floor of baseball card shows. It's pure wishful thinking and one of the standard talking points that is part of the coordinated campaign.

Wayne is correct, above. Also, I am on your side Steve but I think the FBI probably does work in many different ways. I wouldn't be surprised if part of their investigative procedures involve places like public venues. But what do I know?

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

That's essentially what I'm saying. So what does it mean to say that he FBI is aware of their problems with authenticating Cobb? If they suck at it, what does the FBI care? I wonder if Nash is blowing smoke on that issue.

I wonder if the implication is that there are other issues involved?
Just asking.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

I wonder if the implication is that there are other issues involved?
Just asking.

And now we're getting somewhere. I certainly do not like the fact (if true) that an authenticator for these companies is selling one of these autos. That is what i would term a conflict of interest at bestn and a formula for printing money at worst.

[baseballart]

I can't offer any opinion on the signature, but interestingly, a 1970s Putnam Sports Shelf bio on Cobb features the photo of Simmons
.



Max

[mighty bombjack]

Wow! That's very interesting. Thanks for posting the book, Max.

[baseballart]

Sorry, I posted the Simmons HOS photos from my ipad and it wasn't as big as it is on my work monitor. If anyone can resize it, that would be great. Thanks.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

Of course they are. It's always the phony baloney "according to sources" the FBI is investigating this TPA or that one. Allegedly they report the FBI was seen talking to PSA or JSA at the National and they try to spin it like they are being interrogated. Right... Like that's how the FBI conducts formal interviews.... on the busy floor of baseball card shows. It's pure wishful thinking and one of the standard talking points that is part of the coordinated campaign.

glad someone here knows exactly why the fbi talks to these guys at the national. saying that others dont know but you do, is applying the same logic that you are trying to debunk.

just wait until it all shakes out then we will hear the crickets from the people defending this insanity of tpa shell game.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by travrosty

glad someone here knows exactly why the fbi talks to these guys at the national. saying that others dont know but you do, is applying the same logic that you are trying to debunk.

just wait until it all shakes out then we will hear the crickets from the people defending this insanity of tpa shell game.

What crime will the FBI be charging JSA and PSA/DNA with?

[cubsfan-budman]

Max, that book was an awesome addition to this thread.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

What crime will the FBI be charging JSA and PSA/DNA with?

wearing a baseball themed bowtie on television.