Winston and JSA

[Runscott]

JSA has already been through this with Geogia's Todd Gurley, but it's the football player who gets suspended if caught, with no repercussions to the dealer, so here's part 2: http://espn.go.com/college-football/...ton-autographs

[drcy]

double post

[drcy]

Though it's yet to be applied, there is a law in Georgia that it is illegal for someone to get a student athlete to break the academic scholarship eligibility rules. The law was specifically designed for cases such as this and was written in response to a college football player losing his eligibility after selling his game used jersey. So the Georgia dealer could get into legal trouble, but we'll see.

The irony is the players likely lose money overall because of these situations, because NFL teams judge look at ethics, rule breaking and maturity when deciding where to draft a player. And, of course, a rookie's salary and bonus is directly correlated to where he is drafted. I read a recent article that Winston's draft board ranking is falling due to his plethora of troubles. Many teams pass on troubled players, including players who put themselves before the team, and there's no doubt that Gurley's draft and contract $$ will be hurt by this. As many NFL GMs and coaches will tell you, many problem NFL players were problem college players.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by Runscott

JSA has already been through this with Geogia's Todd Gurley, but it's the football player who gets suspended if caught, with no repercussions to the dealer, so here's part 2: http://espn.go.com/college-football/...ton-autographs

I don't understand what JSA's part would be in this post? That they authenticated autographs signed by a college player? What's the point of the thread. If anything, wouldn't this company that submitted the items be under more scrutiny? The thing that bothers me more is that JSA would offer up private business information regarding a submission to a reporter. Jason

[Runscott]

Sorry you don't understand my post or JSA's involvement in this. Just ignore it if it is a problem for you.

Sent from my SM-G730V using Tapatalk

[Runscott]

Jason - no one on this entire board of 1000's of people seems to be interested in this, except you, me and David, so this apparently isn't very important. So no need to get too upset about me posting - I just thought it was interesting that Winston would do something this obvious, blatant and stupid, after all the other stupid things he has done. I also think it's crazy stupid that someone submitted over 900 of his autographs to anyone - it just happens to be JSA - as it is an obvious trail toward incriminating Winston, and I guess whoever submitted the autographs, although that is not clear.

The point of my post was simply to make the story available by posting the link. Right after I posted it the story ran live on ESPN, and it was sort of a big deal to them, as was JSA's involvement. So if you think I'm taking a shot at a TPA, and that offends you, then be offended by ESPN as well.

However, here is my thinking on JSA's involvement, since I suspect you are going to ask me: JSA has already been through this with Gurley, so they know the signing rules as they apply to college athletes. The players cannot sign for money, and they can't sign for someone who is going to use the autographs for money (I assume this last part has to do with 'mass' signings).

JSA authenticated over 900 Winston items, of only 2-3 types, all at the same time, and from the same source, and all apparently signed with the same pen and in the exact same style;i.e-Winston sat down and signed over 900 items. I didn't make this up - I read it in news reports and heard it on ESPN.

JSA has no liability for doing this; however, they had to know that this idiot Winston was going to get fried for it if caught. Winston is a college athlete, so 900+ items coming in at once from the same source indicates 'for profit'.

But no, JSA has no liability.

Jason - why does it bother you that JSA would give up submission reports? Would you rather they hide what they did so that no one gets caught for violating NCAA rules? If that's how you feel, fine. I'm just wondering.

[drcy]

To Jason, JSA didn't give up any personal info about the submitters or identify them. The reporters discovered on their own that the serial numbers were listed in long sequences in the JSA online database. Spence told reporters it was against company privacy policy to say who were the submitters, but did explain that a sequence means a group was submitted by one person or company.

[Duluth Eskimo]

I am not upset about it, I just don't understand why a company authenticating signatures has anything to do with a common criminal like Winston violating NCAA rules. Other than submitting a few signed items here and there to them, I have no affiliation with JSA. It just seems like people have issues with the service itself, as good or bad as it might be. Either way, the issue should be with the athlete and the company that is encouraging the violation, not someone making a judgement that the signature is authentic.

The fact that JSA is providing private business information without a search warrant should bother people who do business with them. It is my understanding no crime has been committed, only an NCAA violation. If i found out that they were providing my previous business and information to others publicly I would be a little upset.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by drcy

To Jason, JSA didn't give up any personal info about the submitters or identify them. The reporters discovered on their own that the serial numbers were listed in long sequences in the JSA online database. Spence told reporters it was against company privacy policy to say who were the submitters, but did explain that a sequence means a group was submitted by one person or company.

Thanks for the clarification, I did not see that

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

It just seems like people have issues with the service itself, as good or bad as it might be.

This thread has nothing to do with that, nor did the ESPN report this morning, the link I posted, or anything else I read about this issue. It was about Winston, the submitter and JSA accepting them. If you think JSA was okay in accepting over 900 submissions of two item types, from a single submitter of a single college athlete's items, knowing from the Gurley experience that Winston would likely be in big trouble if caught, then fine.

If you want to argue about TPA services then please start another thread.

[itjclarke]

It's late, I'm tired and didn't read link.. but I definitely care about this and similar topics.

IMO it's ridiculous these guys cannot profit from their own signatures and/or their own names. Many of these guys (see names from the past--- Heath Shuler, Tim Tebow, Andre Ware, Ty Detmer... and very likely Johnny Manziel) will never have the opportunity to capitalize on their fame/popularity when it's at its peak in college. To those who argue- "they'll just get paid in the NFL", several college stars fail to ever make NFL rosters (Eric Crouch, Jason White, etc), and others who make NFL rosters typically have short lived careers and lack guaranteed contracts. It seems a joke the NCAA, the schools, the networks, gambling operations, memorabelia dealers, video game companies (props to Ed O'Bannon), anybody and everybody can make money off players and players' names, while the player cannot. If you don't want these guy paid while in school, then stick it in a fund/trust that the player can access once he leaves school, perhaps with partial payouts if he leaves early and incentives if he stays through graduation.

IMO the NCAA and NFL are neck and neck for the most evil, and hypocritical entities in US sports. I'm guilty of watching both, so I guess I'm a little hypocritical myself, but oh well.

[autograf]

Clearly JSA is in it solely for the money with no regard to the eligibility of ANY athlete. Guess I don't understand why a submitter had to have them done NOW which could lead someone to the assumption (rightly so) that he did a mass signing with the intent they would be sold which should invalidate his ineligibility. Manziel got away with something similar if I'm not mistaken. Not sure why they wouldn't have been submitted right after a bowl game which would have saved everyone a little headache.............

And I agree with Ian that they SHOULD be able to profit somewhat off their signatures, likenesses and/or names. It's their property, not that of the university. Granted they are getting an education which should somehow be measured against all of it, but there's too much money going into too few people's hands in the whole mess.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Tom and Ian, I agree 100%. Stupid as it is, that is currently the rule. The dealer that set this up and undermined the NCAA and the athlete should be punished if possible, but I don't know if there is much of a rule against it. I know David mentioned it earlier, but I guess I don't see how the NCAA would have any pull over someone not under their umbrella, IE: dealer.

In regards to your post Scott, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't really see why an authentication company should be in the business of holding a Florida dealer accountable for an NCAA rule. I see it as black and white, not blaming someone (JSA) for someone else's (insert dealer name) method of obtaining inventory. To do so makes an assumption that they don't really have any right to ask about. Bottom line, JSA's job is to evaluate a signature not make judgements on people. I guess that's your job

[packs]

I've heard the student athletes should get paid argument a lot lately. How do you guys feel about the fact that these student athletes, regardless of their future NFL earning abilities, attend schools that cost as much as $40,000 a year for no cost? If your average student is spending $160,000 over 4 years at these schools and you're paying nothing, isn't that enough of a gift?

Not all of these players are NFL prospects, but they receive the benefit of a cost free education. In my opinion if these guys want to start getting paid, they can start paying tuition and their scholarships should go to someone else.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by packs

I've heard the student athletes should get paid argument a lot lately. How do you guys feel about the fact that these student athletes, regardless of their future NFL earning abilities, attend schools that cost as much as $40,000 a year for no cost? If your average student is spending $160,000 over 4 years at these schools and you're paying nothing, isn't that enough of a gift?

Not all of these players are NFL prospects, but they receive the benefit of a cost free education. In my opinion if these guys want to start getting paid, they can start paying tuition and their scholarships should go to someone else.

and a BIG +1

[Runscott]

Actually, Jason, I also agree 100% with Tom, so you and I actually agree on most of this. I also agree with Ian. I think you read intent in my posts that wasn't there. We both are certainly against the sleezier elements of our hobby.

Sent from my SM-G730V using Tapatalk

[Runscott]

Packs - I am against breaking the current rules, as it creates an unfair playing field for the honest schools; however, a lot of the cheating is accepted, so the rules do not work. Either change the rules and pay them, or enforce the rules. So basically - I say pay them and they can get an education if they choose to. The you would have 18 yr old kids with no structure except the NCAA's rules, and guys like Winston would not last 5 minutes.

Sent from my SM-G730V using Tapatalk

[steve B]

Originally Posted by packs

I've heard the student athletes should get paid argument a lot lately. How do you guys feel about the fact that these student athletes, regardless of their future NFL earning abilities, attend schools that cost as much as $40,000 a year for no cost? If your average student is spending $160,000 over 4 years at these schools and you're paying nothing, isn't that enough of a gift?

Not all of these players are NFL prospects, but they receive the benefit of a cost free education. In my opinion if these guys want to start getting paid, they can start paying tuition and their scholarships should go to someone else.

So to extend that line of thinking, if a college student gets a full academic scholarship they shouldn't be allowed a part time job because they're getting the college for free? Or a student with a full scholarship based on need can't have a job to pay for books meals etc?

The big schools make money from the football program, so the upper divisions really are minor leagues of sorts.

Or more inline with our collecting interests - West Point used to make a set of cards of the football team every year. Usually small, like 9 cards, maybe a few more. Any proceeds went to charity. They had to stop when the NCAA ruled that they couldn't use the players images without paying them, and that the players couldn't be paid. So for a rule that really only has meaning for a handful of players in big programs everyone lost - 9 guys who would never even have a shot at being drafted couldn't have a card, the fans couldn't get them, and the charity was shut out. (Maybe not the charity, I think the donation is still done, but the added publicity was lost)
An odd situation since everyone there is essentially on scholarship, and sort of technically employed, with a mostly guaranteed job after graduation.

Btw - those are pretty tough sets. I don't recall exactly, but they were stadium only, and perhaps one per ticket.

Steve B

[packs]

You are misreading what I'm saying. These athletes want to get paid to play football. But they are already being paid to play football: they receive a full ride scholarship so they can attend the college and play football.

Bottom line for me: don't look a gift horse in the mouth. You are receiving a free education at a top flight school which your athleticism has allowed you to experience. So you either accept that you've been given a free education or you can demand to be paid and have your scholarship be taken away.

And then when your NFL career doesn't pan out, like it won't for the majority of these guys, you can look forward to crushing student debt like everyone else. At that point you'd probably wish you could go back in time and accept your free ride for what it was.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by steve B

So to extend that line of thinking, if a college student gets a full academic scholarship they shouldn't be allowed a part time job because they're getting the college for free? Or a student with a full scholarship based on need can't have a job to pay for books meals etc?

The big schools make money from the football program, so the upper divisions really are minor leagues of sorts.

Steve, when I was in the MBA program, making a pittance as a TA, I tried to supplement that income by refereeing basketball. When the school realized I had two jobs, they told me I could no longer be a ref. That was in 1981. So what you are describing is already in place, or was. The rules are strictly enforced for any student who is NOT part of the minor league football program

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by packs

You are misreading what I'm saying. These athletes want to get paid to play football. But they are already being paid to play football: they receive a full ride scholarship so they can attend the college and play football.

If a student on academic scholarship started to demand to be paid for studying, then yes, take that ungrateful student's scholarship away and let some benefactor step in to pay him to study.

Bottom line for me: don't look a gift horse in the mouth. You are receiving a free education at a top flight school which your athleticism has allowed you to experience. So you either accept that you've been given a free education or you can demand to be paid and have your scholarship be taken away.

And then when your NFL career doesn't pan out, like it won't for the majority of these guys, you can look forward to crushing student debt like everyone else. At that point you'd probably wish you could go back in time and accept your free ride for what it was.

Those are good points, but I think the majority of college athletes realize that they aren't going pro. We are confusing Winston and Manziel with guys that are barely getting by, and we are confusing schools like USC and Alabama with the smaller ones where virtually no one is first round draft choice material.

Not sure what the affect of paying them would have - it might suck all remaining talent out of the small schools, rendering their football programs useless. On the other hand, paying them AND allowing them to sign autographs or do anything else they want for money, might provide a new source of revenue for smaller schools - they might be able to draw some decent players who could be a well-paid 'face' for the football team, at least locally.

[packs]

True. I just can't help but think the education aspect is forgotten. A free education is more valuable over a lifetime than whatever payment you're going to get for playing 4 years of college football. Just because more players don't take their education seriously doesn't mean that they aren't receiving something in return for playing football. If things were to shift towards compensation I'd like to at least see some strict academic guidelines fulfilled in order for you to qualify. You are at a college after all.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by packs

True. I just can't help but think the education aspect is forgotten. A free education is more valuable over a lifetime than whatever payment you're going to get for playing 4 years of college football. Just because more players don't take their education seriously doesn't mean that they aren't receiving something in return for playing football. If things were to shift towards compensation I'd like to at least see some strict academic guidelines fulfilled in order for you to qualify. You are at a college after all.

Yes, but there are plenty of non-athletes who are in college who do not appreciate the education they have the opportunity to get. You can't make people appreciate it, and there are plenty of football players who DO appreciate it - there are probably as many 'good' stories as 'bad'.

The "strict academic guidelines" is never going to happen. I taught football players at Texas A&M who were dumber than a stick - nice guys, but they really weren't intelligent enough to be in college. The best they could hope for was to get four years of 'growing up' in a structured environment, which is a great thing, along with a few bits of education that they would have missed if they had been somewhere else. You learn from being in school, even if you try not to. Same for life - old people with more years 'put in' in life have learned things just from existing longer than young people. Most young people don't respect or understand that.

[earlywynnfan]

I can totally see both sides of the "pay college athletes" arguments. What I cannot get out of my head is that college FB player last year who was on the cover of the Madden video game, yet couldn't afford to buy the game. There is NO WAY you can convince me that something isn't wrong there.

Ken

[chaddurbin]

i was under the impression big time college programs i.e. SEC schools already pay their football players <wink><wink>.

to the original point i see nothing wrong with what JSA is doing. people want them to turn down business? they exist to give opinions on autographs, nothing more. if anything it's on the stupid autograph dealer who needed to submit 1000 winston autos at the same time. they probably have proof shots of winston signing also, no way jsa would cert that many w/o any proof.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

i was under the impression big time college programs i.e. SEC schools already pay their football players <wink><wink>.

to the original point i see nothing wrong with what JSA is doing. people want them to turn down business? they exist to give opinions on autographs, nothing more. if anything it's on the stupid autograph dealer who needed to submit 1000 winston autos at the same time. they probably have proof shots of winston signing also, no way jsa would cert that many w/o any proof.

Really, you think the only problem is that the autograph dealer was stupid enough to get caught?!? And you think that it was okay for JSA to cert them, knowing that they were potentially helping a second college player get screwed? simply because they had proof that Winston signed, so that let them off the hook?

It's hard to give an example of anything comparable, because I don't think anything exists.

You have a college player who cannot legally sell his autograph, or sign for someone who will sell them for profit. But it happened, meaning the player will be in deep shit if he gets caught. Then those items are sent by a dealer to a TPA, both of who are dead certain that the college player has done something illegal. But neither are responsible in any way. And please don't tell me that JSA didn't know - think 'Gurley'.

[chaddurbin]

JSA did what they were supposed to do, certify autographs. they're not MOM against drunk drivings or DADs against animal cruelty. it's win win for JSA...they get some easy money with added examplars to their college winston signatures.

and how will winston be "screwed"? there were videos of manziel doing the signing and NCAA did nothing, and gurley stock draft will probably be enhanced because he won't be further abused this year. will this make winston look worse after the (2) rape allegations and the crab legs fiasco to NFL people? if you can play, the league will open their arms...be damned if you're an abuser of women, drug abuser, or murderer.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

JSA did what they were supposed to do, certify autographs. they're not MOM against drunk drivings or DADs against animal cruelty. it's win win for JSA...they get some easy money with added examplars to their college winston signatures.

I agree - it would be a 'win/win' if everyone thought like you do. But they don't. ESPN and others were not exactly using JSA's name with reverence. As far as "a few exemplars", I think 900 on two different item types, is sort of overkill. This is a matter of ethics. I understand that a lot of people feel like no one in society has any culpability for anything they do, as long as it is not technically illegal. Mo money, mo money, mo money. That's all that counts.

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

and how will winston be "screwed"? there were videos of manziel doing the signing and NCAA did nothing, and gurley stock draft will probably be enhanced because he won't be further abused this year. will this make winston look worse after the (2) rape allegations and the crab legs fiasco to NFL people? if you can play, the league will open their arms...be damned if you're an abuser of women, drug abuser, or murderer.

You haven't been watching sports talk recently? I consider Florida State washing their hands of him, as him being "screwed", and that's what some are demanding. He's already proven that he's even dumber than Manziel, and Manziel's autograph signings certainly contributed to his draft stock dropping (that means less $$$$, and I would say "being screwed" somewhat).

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I agree - it would be a 'win/win' if everyone thought like you do. But they don't. ESPN and others were not exactly using JSA's name with reverence. As far as "a few exemplars", I think 900 on two different item types, is sort of overkill. This is a matter of ethics. I understand that a lot of people feel like no one in society has any culpability for anything they do, as long as it is not technically illegal. Mo money, mo money, mo money. That's all that counts.



You haven't been watching sports talk recently? I consider Florida State washing their hands of him, as him being "screwed", and that's what some are demanding. He's already proven that he's even dumber than Manziel, and Manziel's autograph signings certainly contributed to his draft stock dropping (that means less $$$$, and I would say "being screwed" somewhat).

As a big FSU fan, I am sick and tired of Winston's B.S. I don't think he gives a damn about the fans, his team mates, or the University. And once again, this crap is happening right before another huge game, with FSU already looking very vulnerable this year....What a moron...

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

As a big FSU fan, I am sick and tired of Winston's B.S. I don't think he gives a damn about the fans, his team mates, or the University. And once again, this crap is happening right before another huge game, with FSU already looking very vulnerable this year....What a moron...

Kevin, I think he cares about all of that stuff. But he is still very immature, and wasn't blessed with very much brains. He needs a mentor - sort of like Tyson with Cus D'Amato. Otherwise he's going to need a lot of luck making it to an NFL payday, and even more luck not blowing it and ending up on the streets.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Steve, when I was in the MBA program, making a pittance as a TA, I tried to supplement that income by refereeing basketball. When the school realized I had two jobs, they told me I could no longer be a ref. That was in 1981. So what you are describing is already in place, or was. The rules are strictly enforced for any student who is NOT part of the minor league football program

I was not aware of that.

I don't think it's right, as long as the job performance didn't suffer. But if the rule is known and applied evenly that seems fair. I'm guessing it wasn't explained to you at all since you seem like a guy who'd follow the rules. (Of course, we were all different people in college than we are now )

I've been mulling over the whole autos/dealer/JSA thing, and I really haven't quite decided what I think.

I do think Winston should have known better. But how many college football players with real talent listen to those boring rules things. Especially if they have been allowed too much leeway in HS.

The dealer really should have known better. If he's got a connection, and basically messes up the kids career to make a few bucks right now he's both wrong and not at all bright. What would that connection be worth if the player became a star at the pro level? Of course that's tempered by Winston doing a fine job of screwing up all on his own.
And if it's not a connection, then the person that hasn't been mentioned yet is whoever handles Winstons business matters or advises him.

Very Mixed feelings about JSA. On the one hand as others have said they were doing what they do. Assuming they didn't seek out someone to get a bunch of autos from someone who isn't supposed to sign for pay I'm not sure about where I think their responsibility ends. Ultimately, I think at least a call to the submitter to let him know he's putting himself and the player in a bad position would be appropriate.
On the other hand, the autographed stuff is sort of like unlicensed cards. And I'm pretty sure none of the legit TPGs will grade those. I wonder if I had one signed - would they reject it because the object that's signed is unlicensed?

I don't know enough about it to know if the act of signing itself is illegal. I don't think the NCAA rules are quite the same as laws. But if it was done somewhere that has a law against getting a college player to risk elegibility that might be enough to make it illegal. ----Interesting, illegal to host a legal activity.........I'm assuming that if for instance Winston himself signed 900 photos and put them away until after his college career that would be ok. Or if he did the signing and the photos weren't to be sold until after his elegibility? Pretty narrow window between that and the draft, but it might make sense.

Steve B

[chaddurbin]

Originally Posted by Runscott

This is a matter of ethics. I understand that a lot of people feel like no one in society has any culpability for anything they do, as long as it is not technically illegal. Mo money, mo money, mo money. That's all that counts.

ethics? who's the arbiter of these ethics? the NCAA? the biggest outcry to come out of this debacle is why shouldn't athletes be able to profit from their own names...no one is siding with the NCAA and their outdated bylaws. and why should JSA have to adhere/answer to the NCAA?

You haven't been watching sports talk recently? I consider Florida State washing their hands of him, as him being "screwed", and that's what some are demanding. He's already proven that he's even dumber than Manziel, and Manziel's autograph signings certainly contributed to his draft stock dropping (that means less $$$$, and I would say "being screwed" somewhat).

manziel stock didn't drop, no one rated him as a 1st round talent and many considered it a reach when clev drafted him. if winston's stock tumble, it'll be because his measurables won't be that impressive and of course because of all the stuff he did that broke the law...not because he signed his name a couple thousand times for an autograph dealer.

...and i'm probably the biggest fsu/jameis winston hater on the west coast.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by steve B

I was not aware of that.

I don't think it's right, as long as the job performance didn't suffer. But if the rule is known and applied evenly that seems fair. I'm guessing it wasn't explained to you at all since you seem like a guy who'd follow the rules. (Of course, we were all different people in college than we are now )

I have always, for the most part, been a 'rules follower'. I think it's what holds society together. If you want to be part of a society, you follow the rules that are 'reasonable' or you do something to change them. In that instance the technical rule was 'no university job' if you have an assistantship. So I became a bartender.

Originally Posted by steve B

Ultimately, I think at least a call to the submitter to let him know he's putting himself and the player in a bad position would be appropriate.

At the very least, in my opinion. It's just ethical.

Originally Posted by steve B

I don't know enough about it to know if the act of signing itself is illegal. I don't think the NCAA rules are quite the same as laws. But if it was done somewhere that has a law against getting a college player to risk elegibility that might be enough to make it illegal. ----Interesting, illegal to host a legal activity.........I'm assuming that if for instance Winston himself signed 900 photos and put them away until after his college career that would be ok. Or if he did the signing and the photos weren't to be sold until after his elegibility? Pretty narrow window between that and the draft, but it might make sense.

Steve B

It's actually very clear - he can't sign for profit, or for others to profit. Certainly, signing 900 items would be suspicious. And as soon as the dealer sells one, Winston becomes guilty.

Not sure about squirreling them away for after eligibility ends. Very interesting loophole, as there could be a deal between Winston, the dealer and JSA stating that nothing gets sold until that point.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

ethics? who's the arbiter of these ethics? the NCAA? the biggest outcry to come out of this debacle is why shouldn't athletes be able to profit from their own names...no one is siding with the NCAA and their outdated bylaws. and why should JSA have to adhere/answer to the NCAA?

No one is the arbiter - it's a personal thing, and it's obvious where you stand. You are;however, building a straw man from this. The discussion wasn't about JSA's feelings about outdated NCAA rules - it was about the effect of his actions on a college football player who is under those rules. JSA gets off scot-free regardless.

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

manziel stock didn't drop, no one rated him as a 1st round talent and many considered it a reach when clev drafted him. if winston's stock tumble, it'll be because his measurables won't be that impressive and of course because of all the stuff he did that broke the law...not because he signed his name a couple thousand times for an autograph dealer.

...and i'm probably the biggest fsu/jameis winston hater on the west coast.

I think you have your head in the sand regarding Manziel. His stock most certainly dropped. Yes, before his problems he was certainly rated as a 1st round talent. And you certainly are wrong about Winston - anyone who follows the NFL knows that off-the-field behavior IS important for college players. Bad behavior indicates ability to lead a team and make correct decisions once he's a member of an NFL team. It also affects team image. This isn't a matter of opinion - there are plenty of historic examples.

I think you are arguing just to be arguing, as Manziel's fall is common knowledge - as his immaturity became more and more evident, his NFL stock dropped. But you already know this

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by packs

I've heard the student athletes should get paid argument a lot lately. How do you guys feel about the fact that these student athletes, regardless of their future NFL earning abilities, attend schools that cost as much as $40,000 a year for no cost? If your average student is spending $160,000 over 4 years at these schools and you're paying nothing, isn't that enough of a gift?

Not all of these players are NFL prospects, but they receive the benefit of a cost free education. In my opinion if these guys want to start getting paid, they can start paying tuition and their scholarships should go to someone else.

Meant to post earlier but tied up at work. This argument drives me crazy... basically saying-- you already get this, so you can't have anything else, regardless of whether you're worth it or not. Tim Tebow by some accounts was worth over $1B to the university, NCAA and CBS/etc. He can't see any of that??? even if he's just signing his own name???? or appearing at a football camp or speaking function???? Are you kidding???

Major college sports has by far the largest disparity in what they're (star athletes) worth and what they get. The old, truly amature Olympics may have come close, but can't think of anything in today's sports world worse than major college football and college hoops.

Separately, the time they put in year round is probably worth close to, maybe even more than that $40K scholarship money (or maybe $10K-$15K at a public school) if they were to be working a normal job. I went to a smallish IAA school (CP SLO) and kicked around the idea of trying to walk on for my sophomore year. As it was, I was a Mech Eng student, taking 16-18 units, and just couldn't bring myself to get up each morning in the winter for 6am workouts, just to have a shot to try out in the Spring. It's crazy, and I have total respect for guys that can do it. 6am work outs, Spring ball, summer ball/work outs, double days, the season... then start right back over again.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

Major college sports has by far the largest disparity in what they're (star athletes) worth and what they get. The old, truly amature Olympics may have come close, but can't think of anything in today's sports world worse than major college football and college hoops.

The Amateur version of the Olympics that I grew up with, was great for fans, but not for the athletes. There was a lot going on in the background that the fans were unaware of - the best U.S. athletes were dirt poor and if they said anything about it, they were banned from participating in competitions. It was a horrible situation for them. It eventually crumbled and the fans cried foul, but it had to happen. I do miss real boxing, real wrestling and real basketball, the way Naismith intended it be played, but all of that is gone. The ironic thing is how crooked things were in the old amateur Olympics. What memories!

Perhaps we are witnessing the same transition with NCAA football?

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by Runscott

The Amateur version of the Olympics that I grew up with, was great for fans, but not for the athletes. There was a lot going on in the background that the fans were unaware of - the best U.S. athletes were dirt poor and if they said anything about it, they were banned from participating in competitions. It was a horrible situation for them. It eventually crumbled and the fans cried foul, but it had to happen. I do miss real boxing, real wrestling and real basketball, the way Naismith intended it be played, but all of that is gone. The ironic thing is how crooked things were in the old amateur Olympics. What memories!

Perhaps we are witnessing the same transition with NCAA football?

Ahhh, I've got a terrible misspelling frozen in time!

Otherwise, I do think we're seeing a transition in NCAA and think change will be in large part driven by public pressure. Things like the O'Bannon case and the Northwestern team are bringing unprecedented attention.. and no matter how you feel about the Northwestern players' arguments, it's undeniable how much leverage these guys carry. Can you imagine how much bargaining power a team choosing NOT to take the field or court just before a national championship game?? How about if they're doing so for a paralyzed teammate who does not have lifetime medical benefits? I think a network (or conference) would pay them $10M on the spot if it could be done secretly. Not saying I hope this happens, but something's gotta change and however it's done, it needs to be done.

Some ideas to throw up on the wall-- players have rights to their names for martketing, advertising/% of jersey sales/autograph sales and this money can be held in a trust... they get 100% if they graduate, and lesser % for each year they leave early... for players kicked out due to poor conduct, maybe money can be donated to scholarship funds of local educational programs?? Perhaps a cap can be set for 1A schools, and money shared amongst players, in a slotted fashion based on playing time... and the truly mega star players would get their extra via endorsements, signings, etc.

I wrote a paper in college on this topic, and remember some of the numbers cited at that time (mid-nineties using late eighties sources). There were references about major bowl games bringing $500K-$600K for teams, etc... which is laughable by today's standards. Not every school is making huge money on their own, but the major conferences are cleaning up... between deals with ESPN/CBS/ABC, the conference cable networks, ticket/merchendise/consession sales, BCS bowl earnings... there is a lot of loot to split up. The fact conference cronies, school ADs, bowl administrators are absolutely cleaning up makes me semi sick when seeing how little most of these players have, and will have long term.

Also- I see NO REASON why a football player need be forced to go to school to pursue his dream. Even 1 and done in basketball seems silly. I think baseball has it best, eligable in HS and committed for 3 years if you enroll in a 4 year school.

[chaddurbin]

again, going back to the original issue with JSA...they didn't have to do anything other than judge whether the sigs r authentic or not.

if the local university head basketball coach come to our restaurant with a couple of his student players and pay for their meals...i'm cool with it. i'm glad they chose our establishment, i don't consider that unethical and i'm not going to dial up the compliance dept of the NCAA to report the infraction. i'm fine with my moral compass, i sleep very well at night.

[swarmee]

One, the high school player has no effective value. He is just a college recruit. It isn't until he gets to college and proves himself that he becomes an NFL prospect, where there is a shot to get paid.
The NCAA does not just cover CFB and MBB; it covers over 40 amateur sports. The money the schools take in on football cover the expenses (mostly) of the other 15-39 sports that a college plays. Remove the income stream from football, and 10 sports at some schools would be immediately shuttered, leading many with scholarships to have no team to play for. You saw this 10 years ago when colleges were *finally* becoming compliant with the Title IX regs that were published in the 1970s.
As well, allowing any college player to sign autographs for money now becomes a Boone Pickens/Nike/Under Armour situation. Oklahoma State, Oregon, and Maryland have the most powerful boosters with deep pockets, and promising a high school player that he'll be able to sign $100K autographs while in college at any of these schools makes it impossible to even attempt a leveled playing field for recruiting.

I think the NCAA will fail/be replaced for many of these reasons, but IMO the goals of the student-athlete and amateur athletics is sound. If the NFL had the balls to start up their own minor leagues and pay HS players $20-30K to play in front of empty stadiums, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. There would be a place for non-college students to play in the US without having to pretend to be a student, but then, they wouldn't be "getting what they deserve" either. There's no demand for a minor league NFL, but that's the only real way to fix college football. I just think that you take these kids out of the college they're playing for, and their football playing ability below the NFL has very little value. We know that's true for minor league baseball players, where many have to live on $20K for a season.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

again, going back to the original issue with JSA...they didn't have to do anything other than judge whether the sigs r authentic or not.

if the local university head basketball coach come to our restaurant with a couple of his student players and pay for their meals...i'm cool with it. i'm glad they chose our establishment, i don't consider that unethical and i'm not going to dial up the compliance dept of the NCAA to report the infraction. i'm fine with my moral compass, i sleep very well at night.

Quan, morality and ethics are two different things. I'm glad you are moral.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by swarmee

One, the high school player has no effective value. He is just a college recruit. It isn't until he gets to college and proves himself that he becomes an NFL prospect, where there is a shot to get paid.
The NCAA does not just cover CFB and MBB; it covers over 40 amateur sports. The money the schools take in on football cover the expenses (mostly) of the other 15-39 sports that a college plays. Remove the income stream from football, and 10 sports at some schools would be immediately shuttered, leading many with scholarships to have no team to play for. You saw this 10 years ago when colleges were *finally* becoming compliant with the Title IX regs that were published in the 1970s.
As well, allowing any college player to sign autographs for money now becomes a Boone Pickens/Nike/Under Armour situation. Oklahoma State, Oregon, and Maryland have the most powerful boosters with deep pockets, and promising a high school player that he'll be able to sign $100K autographs while in college at any of these schools makes it impossible to even attempt a leveled playing field for recruiting.

I think the NCAA will fail/be replaced for many of these reasons, but IMO the goals of the student-athlete and amateur athletics is sound. If the NFL had the balls to start up their own minor leagues and pay HS players $20-30K to play in front of empty stadiums, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. There would be a place for non-college students to play in the US without having to pretend to be a student, but then, they wouldn't be "getting what they deserve" either. There's no demand for a minor league NFL, but that's the only real way to fix college football. I just think that you take these kids out of the college they're playing for, and their football playing ability below the NFL has very little value. We know that's true for minor league baseball players, where many have to live on $20K for a season.

Those are really valid counter points. Sadly seems most any system, including current allows for the Nikes, Boone Pickens of the sports world to game the system. I think maybe the best they can do is cap any sort of compensation, and again hold in trust to be paid/slotted based on years at school/time played/etc.. Maybe allow revenues from good performing conferences to be allocated amongst teams and bump cap up, giving a perceived "reward" for success. Maybe you also offer rewards/incentives for highest academically performing teams. Seems you'd want to do everything you could to aid those programs. These guys (agents, some coaches, boosters) and most schools do it and get away with. Some schools are involved, and some just turn a blind eye to powerful boosters.

I heard from a friend, who's dad was a successful head coach in the ACC, about one of the ways Cam Newton's dad Cecil was paid. Apparently Auburn had a booster that owned or had ties to a river boat casino. Cecil was instructed to go into the casino and play X game at X time (slots, whatever) and everything was rigged for him to win and walk out the door with thousands, tens of thousands. If busted, unless they're dumb and left an email or phone trail, seems the university will always have a plausible deniability for this sort of behavior.

I love Stanford's success, but even if the coach and program are clean, Stanford has about as powerful an alumni group as there is. Who's to say big time alumns don't take the Capitol Hill route and just make hand shake promises and lucrative "ins" via internships or jobs after school. Lots of motivated, top student athletes might be lured by that kind of stuff and again, school doesn't necessarily even know.

[Runscott]

Ian, I know you have thoroughly researched the alternatives you describe, but to someone who is a layman in that area, it seems like there would be all sorts of lawsuits by college athletes desperate for their fair share, especially when the point came when they experienced injuries, 'failure to live up to potential' or 'Winston/Manziel syndrome'. Lots of hail mary lawsuits due to all the subjective assigning of value.

...congrats regarding your Giants.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by Runscott

...congrats regarding your Giants.

Thanks!!!!

On the other topic, I'm sure you're right. It's really a bummer when nothing can ever seem to get done here for sake of the "law", red tape, etc. My old roommate went back to school a few years ago for urban planning at MIT. He didn't for one second consider working in the US because NOTHING GETS DONE! I get it, some of this red tape and lawyering is necessary, but when it stalls things completely it's beyond counter productive. I think they built the original Bay Bridge in about 3 years start to finish. The 2nd (half of it) took about 12 of 13... and the delays for things as stupid as whether or not to have a big/signature tower and suspension span end up doubling, quadrupaling the budgeted costs due to change orders and rising steel prices. Seems simple enough--- do you due dilligence and then just DO. I wish the same applied for NCAA reforms.

[drcy]

For all JSA knew, the autographs were signed for a university sponsored charity.

[Runscott]

...