NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you give an opinion of a person or company your full name needs to be in your post. Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on Ebay
Pre-WWII Cards
Post WWII Cards
Vintage Memorabilia
Babe Ruth Cards
Ty Cobb Cards
Lou Gehrig Cards
Mickey Mantle Cards
Goudey Cards
Bowman Cards
T205s on Ebay
Tobacco "T" Cards
Caramel "E" Cards
Vintage Baseball Postcards
Football Cards on Ebay
Exhibit Cards
Strip Cards
Baking Cards
Sporting News
Playball Cards on Ebay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-19-2017, 12:48 PM
samosa4u's Avatar
samosa4u samosa4u is offline
Ran-jodh Dh.ill0n
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Toronto
Posts: 506
Default Market Manipulation: Can it Happen Again?

The boom of 2016 is a subject that has always fascinated me. I have read many posts on here and there are many competing theories as to what caused this. One of the popular ones is that a bunch of wealthy individuals bid like crazy on EX-MT to NM graded cards, and this resulted in the "explosion" of the higher graded examples.

Now here is my question: if it was that simple, in other words, if all it took was a bunch of rich guys to bid like crazy on certain cards, then why wasn't something like this done in the past? The insane prices that cards were bringing in last summer is something that I have never seen before. Also, why have they not done it again since then? Is it possible that these individuals who participated in manipulating the prices of cards will never do it again?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-19-2017, 01:10 PM
swarmee's Avatar
swarmee swarmee is offline
J0hn Raff3rty
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Niceville FL
Posts: 4,101
Default

Still happening, just not on the same cards. It's always going on with Michael Jordan cards. Until Eddie Murphy and Dan Aykroyd team up to stick it to the Duke brothers, it is always a possibility to happen.

My first real investment scheme was with Beanie Babies back in high school, because retired ones went immediately from $7 (store price) to $50-75 the day they were retired. However, we had a store in the mall that would still get shipments of retired beanbags. So we would get there when they put them on the shelf, buy them, and resell them. Had some rare ones as well; I realized we were in a fad market, so when the first price guide (yes, there were beanie price guides) showed a down arrow, I sold all of the ones worth more than $5 for a total of $2000. So if you notice it happening, that's a great time to sell your card and hope to buy on the crash.
__________________
--
PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head
PSA: Regularly Get Cheated
BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern
SGC: Closed auto authentication business
JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC
Oh, what a difference a year makes.

Last edited by swarmee; 08-19-2017 at 10:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-19-2017, 09:13 PM
Gobucsmagic74's Avatar
Gobucsmagic74 Gobucsmagic74 is offline
Dan
Dan Hi.cks
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Rockledge, Fl
Posts: 1,547
Default

Beanie babies lol
__________________
B/S/T deals completed with Kzoo, VintageGamerN00b, RayBShotz, Batter67up, brian29575, ChuckLaw08, itjclarke, 3-2-count, GradyM333, 39special, sox1903wschamp, Republicaninmass, BKasarda, vcuono, mlfink83, vintagewhitesox, bobbvc, bobbyw8469, 71buc, MattyFan, pencil1974(3), Webster, CMIZ5290, glchen, sycks22, Epps, GehrigFan, 1952boyntoncollector, wilkiebaby11, chiprop, ezez420, aloondilana, BosseFieldBoy, AddieJoss, Baseball*Collectibles
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-20-2017, 06:57 AM
Steve D's Avatar
Steve D Steve D is offline
5t3v3...D4.w50n
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 1,317
Default

I think they've just moved on to modern-day rookies.

Why are '89UD Griffey Jr PSA 10s going for $600?

Why are Topps Mike Trout PSA 10 RC going for upwards of $500?

Why are Kershaws going for $200+

Same thing with Bonds, McGwire and Clemens RCs.

'82 Topps Traded Ripken Jr PSA 9s are suddenly going for around $200?


Steve
__________________
Successful BST deals with Leon, veloce, shammus, lharris3600, jimivintage, sb1, seablaster.

Current Wantlist:
1909 Obak Howard (Los Angeles) (no frame on back)
T205 Adkins, Donohue, Fisher, Graham (Cubs), A. Leifield, Wilhelm
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-20-2017, 07:19 AM
bnorth's Avatar
bnorth bnorth is offline
Ben North
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 5,275
Default

The card market is always being manipulated. It is very easy because most collectors only care about the card. Just look at all the scum in the hobby and how people line up to buy from them. I have even watched it being done on this forum before.
__________________
T210 Series 3 Ft Worth, looking for low end examples and especially ones with a Y shaped hole punch. I also have some extra T210's for trade.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-20-2017, 11:01 AM
drcy's Avatar
drcy drcy is offline
David Ru.dd Cycl.eback
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,610
Default

If the price of, say, a PSA 10 Mike Schmidt rookie card is 'manipulated' to $100,000, it doesn't matter if you don't buy one.

Having never spend $50,000 on a PSA Topps Sandy Koufax or Nolan Ryan, I can't say that I've been manipulated.

Last edited by drcy; 08-20-2017 at 11:02 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-20-2017, 11:06 AM
drcy's Avatar
drcy drcy is offline
David Ru.dd Cycl.eback
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,610
Default

"So you've never been shill bid?"
David: "Good point."
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-21-2017, 11:23 AM
e107collector's Avatar
e107collector e107collector is offline
Tony N.
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 896
Default

1952 topps mantle's in PSA 8.

One just sold over the weekend for $384,000.

A few over the past year or so in PSA 8 sold for $500 - $600K+.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-21-2017, 11:42 AM
WWG WWG is offline
Rennie
Re.ne Gal.letti
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 97
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by e107collector View Post
1952 topps mantle's in PSA 8.

One just sold over the weekend for $384,000.

A few over the past year or so in PSA 8 sold for $500 - $600K+.
One sold for as little as $282K just a few weeks ago.

https://www.huntauctions.com/live/im...=314&lot_qual=
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-21-2017, 01:07 PM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
ja.ke liebe.rman
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: http://www.psacard.com/PSASetRegistry/alltimeset.aspx?s=175000&ac=1
Posts: 4,578
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WWG View Post
One sold for as little as $282K just a few weeks ago.

https://www.huntauctions.com/live/im...=314&lot_qual=
we will see that one listed again somewhere else.

there is a 100,000+ premium on the better centered cards though
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08-21-2017, 01:52 PM
ajjohnsonsoxfan ajjohnsonsoxfan is offline
A.J. Johnson
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,073
Default

yeah why does everyone assume cards in the same grade will sell for the same price? Still big time variations at the sgc/psa "8" grade level
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-21-2017, 01:57 PM
packs packs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 5,485
Default

Everyone is talking about PSA 8 Mantles so it seems like you'd only have to worry about manipulation at the highest level, which doesn't really have much of an affect on most collectors. If you want to manipulate at the low level, it'll take you forever to do it. In summation, I'd like to posit that it won't ever matter much to most of us.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-21-2017, 02:23 PM
Baseball Bob Baseball Bob is offline
Eric S.
member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Houston Swamp
Posts: 81
Default Why individuals?

Who's to say that the bulk of the money is coming in from individuals? The secrecy of auctions makes that hard to substantiate. There is a lot of cash held in private equity firms, and it may be that they are market participants as they are looking for high rate of return investments. No evidence of collusion to drive up prices, either. I think that, like any market, there will be a severe correction as supply outstrips demand, and even the vaunted Mantles will take a hard fall. When price growth is following an exponetial trend, watch out!
__________________
"Baseball Bob"

Successful transactions with ecRich, HTBB, MPeich, Pencil1974, JLoewke, Darkhorse9, Therajah, eb548, Cards 2121, etc.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-21-2017, 02:24 PM
WWG WWG is offline
Rennie
Re.ne Gal.letti
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 97
Default

Yes, not all PSA 8's are created equal but pretty big price difference though in a matter of a few months. Both look pretty damn nice to me.

$660K 2/2017

660.jpg

$282K 6/2017

282.jpg
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-21-2017, 02:26 PM
ajjohnsonsoxfan ajjohnsonsoxfan is offline
A.J. Johnson
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,073
Default

could be just the scans but the lower realized priced 8 looks washed out vs. the top one. It's also in an old holder. Why wouldn't the AH reholder it before selling? dumb
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 08-21-2017, 02:50 PM
MVSNYC MVSNYC is online now
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,429
Default

The Hunt example was poorly centered, and in an old flip.

The Heritage example was not well centered, and corners looked a little soft.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-21-2017, 02:57 PM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
ja.ke liebe.rman
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: http://www.psacard.com/PSASetRegistry/alltimeset.aspx?s=175000&ac=1
Posts: 4,578
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan View Post
could be just the scans but the lower realized priced 8 looks washed out vs. the top one. It's also in an old holder. Why wouldn't the AH reholder it before selling? dumb
I would be scared to send a 400k card in the mail for a 20 dollar holder...but assuming people with that type of money have their ways
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08-21-2017, 02:59 PM
WWG WWG is offline
Rennie
Re.ne Gal.letti
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 97
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MVSNYC View Post
The Hunt example was poorly centered, and in an old flip.

The Heritage example was not well centered, and corners looked a little soft.
So if both cards have their faults what do you equate the almost $400K difference in price?
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 08-21-2017, 03:23 PM
Mdmtx's Avatar
Mdmtx Mdmtx is offline
Mark Medlin
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Burleson, Texas
Posts: 547
Default

Every time I buy a 300k card I look for the following:

Oh wait.... 300k. Lol. Lol.
__________________
You got any of them n series non sport and boxing in there?
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 08-21-2017, 03:38 PM
Aaron Seefeldt's Avatar
Aaron Seefeldt Aaron Seefeldt is offline
Aaron Seefeldt
member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Suburb of Chicago
Posts: 99
Default 1 less bidder

Quote:
Originally Posted by WWG View Post
So if both cards have their faults what do you equate the almost $400K difference in price?
1 less bidder can make all the difference.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 08-21-2017, 04:32 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 19,008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MVSNYC View Post
The Hunt example was poorly centered, and in an old flip.

The Heritage example was not well centered, and corners looked a little soft.
The Heritage example was not well centered?? Seriously??
__________________
Stuff trumps all. Even tainted stuff.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 08-21-2017, 08:05 PM
e107collector's Avatar
e107collector e107collector is offline
Tony N.
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 896
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
The Heritage example was not well centered?? Seriously??
I think he was referring to the one sold over the weekend. The one pictured above is extremely well centered, imo.

Aaron, I agree, if one less bidder gets taken from the equation, prices can vary greatly.

Tony
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 08-21-2017, 08:47 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 19,008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by e107collector View Post
I think he was referring to the one sold over the weekend. The one pictured above is extremely well centered, imo.

Aaron, I agree, if one less bidder gets taken from the equation, prices can vary greatly.

Tony
Oh, I see.
__________________
Stuff trumps all. Even tainted stuff.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 08-22-2017, 10:06 AM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is offline
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 27,634
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mdmtx View Post
Every time I buy a 300k card I look for the following:

Oh wait.... 300k. Lol. Lol.
Just 1-2 less 0's, or so, and I can be there too!!
These guys paying 500k for a '52 Mantle could almost lose a decent "house" of value on the downside.
__________________
Leon Luckey
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 08-22-2017, 11:09 AM
Mdmtx's Avatar
Mdmtx Mdmtx is offline
Mark Medlin
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Burleson, Texas
Posts: 547
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
Just 1-2 less 0's, or so, and I can be there too!!
These guys paying 500k for a '52 Mantle could almost lose a decent "house" of value on the downside.

Leon,

I'm nearly a millionaire anyway. I have all the zeroes, just searching for a 1.
__________________
You got any of them n series non sport and boxing in there?
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 08-22-2017, 12:16 PM
Jobu's Avatar
Jobu Jobu is offline
Bry@n
member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: WI
Posts: 2,426
Default

I have the 1 but lack the 0s. Maybe we can get together and make something happen!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mdmtx View Post
Leon,

I'm nearly a millionaire anyway. I have all the zeroes, just searching for a 1.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 08-22-2017, 12:39 PM
darwinbulldog's Avatar
darwinbulldog darwinbulldog is offline
Glenn
Glen.n Sch.ey-d
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: South Florida
Posts: 2,086
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobu View Post
I have the 1 but lack the 0s. Maybe we can get together and make something happen!
I have the full 1000000, but it's in binary.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 08-22-2017, 02:57 PM
samosa4u's Avatar
samosa4u samosa4u is offline
Ran-jodh Dh.ill0n
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Toronto
Posts: 506
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baseball Bob View Post
Who's to say that the bulk of the money is coming in from individuals? The secrecy of auctions makes that hard to substantiate. There is a lot of cash held in private equity firms, and it may be that they are market participants as they are looking for high rate of return investments. No evidence of collusion to drive up prices, either.
Yes, I agree that no evidence exists, but there are a lot of questions that remain unanswered. For example, there was a popular thread started last summer titled “Changing of the Guard: The Commoditization of Sportscards,” and here is what the OP (Brent) wrote:

Yes, I do believe this hobby is getting pushed hard by a limited number of collector/investors. Not sure exactly how many heavy investors there are, but I’d say the people most responsible number more than 10 and probably less than 30.

This sentence freaked me out for some reason. More than 10 and probably less than 30? Really? I would love to find out who these people are. So in 2016 these guys just suddenly went nuts buying cards and then stopped?

Quote:
Originally Posted by packs View Post
Everyone is talking about PSA 8 Mantles so it seems like you'd only have to worry about manipulation at the highest level, which doesn't really have much of an affect on most collectors. If you want to manipulate at the low level, it'll take you forever to do it. In summation, I'd like to posit that it won't ever matter much to most of us.
The lower level cards were on fire as well. I think that people just use the PSA 8 Mantle to show how bad this whole thing was. The lower-end stuff dropped in value too.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 08-23-2017, 11:57 AM
egri's Avatar
egri egri is offline
Sco.tt Mar.cus
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 603
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by packs View Post
If you want to manipulate at the low level, it'll take you forever to do it. In summation, I'd like to posit that it won't ever matter much to most of us.
It is doable though. Case in point that (thankfully former) member here who is cornering the market on 1952 Topps Cole Bartirome cards.
__________________
Signed 1953 Topps set: 249/274 (90.87 %)
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 08-23-2017, 02:52 PM
packs packs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 5,485
Default

Everything is do-able but what was the pay off? He'd have to sell only a few a year if he wanted to maintain the value. If he were to sell off his collection he'd dilute the market again. And if he didn't acquire a majority of the copies, he probably helped other people make money who already had the card.

Last edited by packs; 08-23-2017 at 09:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
1984-85 Star Jordan XRC 101 Manipulation ezez420 Hockey / Basketball / Tennis Cards Forum 32 05-16-2016 01:17 PM
If PSA were to become a monopoly what would happen to the market regarding SGC cards? bbeck Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 7 02-07-2012 07:18 PM
Housing / Stock Market Affecting Card Market ?? Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 11 09-09-2007 11:37 AM
scan manipulation, the latest (at least to me) card scam Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 8 05-05-2002 05:09 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:26 PM.


ebay GSB