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  #1  
Old 11-13-2017, 08:21 AM
scomeau scomeau is offline
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Default 'Altered' vs 'Authentic' - confused

This stems from a PSA submission of a '54 Kaline that came back as simply 'Altered'. I can't see anything! I got no insight from PSA as to why. It has a flip stuck to a 'CardSaver' and has a Cert#, but it is "not in their database". It's not an update lag as it was months ago.

Anyway, I googled to learn the technical difference between 'Altered' and 'Authentic' only to find little good info. I have 'Authentic' grades that I assume are either trimmed, torn, skinned, or otherwise mistreated. But I can't find real detail on the difference between altered, authentic and 'altered authentic'.

It seems that 'Altered' leans more toward restoration attempts, but then why doesn't 'trimmed' also get that grade? I got the sense that there is no question regarding authenticity as it wasn't described as counterfeit. So, why won't they encapsulate?

I guess I'd also like to know how it would affect valuation! Since it can't be encapsulated, does it become worthless?

I will call PSA to see what they say, but I thought you might help clear the fog and provide some advice.

Thanks.

Last edited by scomeau; 11-13-2017 at 08:23 AM.
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  #2  
Old 11-13-2017, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Since it can't be encapsulated, does it become worthless?
Far from it. Some people go out of their way to collect "A" cards because it allows them to get a nicer looking card for a fraction of the price. Try submitting to SGC, and check the box allowing them to put "A" cards in holders.

Last edited by bobbyw8469; 11-13-2017 at 09:31 AM.
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  #3  
Old 11-13-2017, 09:34 AM
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Authentic should be applied to any cards that have been treated roughly, hand cut, ect, ect, but not manipulated deliberately in anyway as to enhance the cards appeal or value.

Altered cards are cards that were deliberately altered to enhance the appeal and or value.

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  #4  
Old 11-13-2017, 09:54 AM
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Thanks Andrew.

A couple questions.
Does anyone offer 'Authentic Altered' encapsulation?
Does anyone actually describe the issue or just reject?

I have seen older cards that are 'Authentic' but have black pen used on the front or back to cover chips or tears. Especially like N300 Mayo Cut Plug. I'm talking SGC or PSA graded 'A'. Isn't that deliberate? Trimmed too...

Again, thanks.
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  #5  
Old 11-13-2017, 09:57 AM
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Thanks. Does 'A' include altered? Do they differentiate between Altered and Authentic?
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Old 11-13-2017, 10:29 AM
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This was encapsulated about 10 years ago. An erasure at the bottom caused the "altered authentic" determination.
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  #7  
Old 11-13-2017, 10:44 AM
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A is used as an umbrella grade. It can be on a card that was altered, is in poor condition, is just Authentic(as some card issues were), or some collectors just want a card slabbed and an A used instead of numerical.
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  #8  
Old 11-13-2017, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by GaryPassamonte View Post
This was encapsulated about 10 years ago. An erasure at the bottom caused the "altered authentic" determination.
Great example Gary. I do not believe SGC labels like that though. Its just an A.
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  #9  
Old 11-13-2017, 10:55 AM
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From PSA's website.
img858.jpg
Manning A.jpg
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  #10  
Old 11-13-2017, 11:24 AM
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I had a long talk with 2 graders who sat down at lunch table with me at national. We only discussed 2 issues min size requirement and altered. What they said about altered was most altered cards were placed in heavy plastic screwdowns and pressure was applied to the card. Hence the term altered stock. SGC has the same term. I have had cards from Goudey's to 80's rookies get this grade.And for a time I like many used large screwdowns to display cards at shows so I accepted them at their word. Hope this helps.
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  #11  
Old 11-13-2017, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T205 GB View Post
A is used as an umbrella grade. It can be on a card that was altered, is in poor condition, is just Authentic(as some card issues were), or some collectors just want a card slabbed and an A used instead of numerical.
+1

Away from grading, authentic for anything means the item is genuine. For card grades, it means the card is genuine but there is something wrong with it-- alteration, restoration, major damage, ultra poor condition, or if the submitter specifically asked for the grade (perhaps the owner preferred an Auth to a Poor).

Also, there may some really rare and esoteric items that will only get the authentic grade.

In my world of artifact authentication, authenticity and condition grade are two different things.

Last edited by drcy; 11-13-2017 at 12:49 PM.
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  #12  
Old 11-13-2017, 01:14 PM
scomeau scomeau is offline
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Thanks, Jonathan.

I think that was exactly my issue. The sad thing is that there was no instruction (at least not in anything I read) that PSA would encapsulate as 'AA' IF THE SUBMISSION HAD A NOTE REQUESTING. Since I did not know that, I must re-submit and repay to get that type of 'grading'.

Ugh. It seems a shame that a suspicious grade will be given even though the impact is almost certainly due to holders. Given today's "need" for grading, it looks like that must be done, and the value appropriately impacted - whatever that is!

Again, thanks.
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  #13  
Old 11-13-2017, 01:21 PM
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Agreed. Authenticity and condition are 2 separate items, but questionable authenticity really undermines its value. Although assigning a numerical grade to an 'altered' card is a contradiction, it's too bad there is not some way to clarify what the issues might be.

I think SGC tries to do that as I have some Old Judge cards graded as 'A' but with 'skinned' or 'trimmed' indicated on the flip. That helps. Even if it were only recorded in the SGC certification library. At least that way, a buyer could get a better picture based on a cert lookup.
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  #14  
Old 11-13-2017, 01:23 PM
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Thanks again, Andrew and Gary
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Old 11-13-2017, 01:30 PM
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I agree that a condition grade of 'Authentic' is ambiguous.

I should add that there are scarce cases where there is so much restoration that there are questions about 'How authentic is it?" I'm not talking about trimming our touching up, but cases where, say, 40 percent of the item has been restored with foreign materials. And, of course, there are alteration of otherwise genuine items that are designed to change the identity and thus are forgeries (rare variations, T206 Magie, etc). Some genuine but badly broken ancient Indian Artifacts, such as stone arrowheads or knives, are rechipped into whole pieces, and many collectors in that area would consider these borderline forgeries-- or at least, not entirely authentic. Genuine ancient American Indian artifacts are commonly 'cleaned up,' so that's a collecting area were looking for restoration is common.

Last edited by drcy; 11-13-2017 at 01:41 PM.
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  #16  
Old 11-14-2017, 06:24 AM
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Drcy,

I have a friend who is a long-time Indian artifact collector/dealer, and he shares your opinion.

It's a shame that such things undermine the fun in our hobbies. Ignorance might have been blissful in the days prior to huge prices and the extortion of grading.
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  #17  
Old 11-15-2017, 08:04 PM
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Jonathan, What did the graders say about the minimum size not met label? That one has always baffled me.

Thanks

Lee Behrens
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  #18  
Old 11-15-2017, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sterling Sports Auctions View Post
Jonathan, What did the graders say about the minimum size not met label? That one has always baffled me.

Thanks

Lee Behrens
That is a card that shows no signs of trimming, but measures short. A factory miscut generally being the reason. There is a pretty nice looking cj joe Jackson in an authentic non altered holder for this reason.
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Old 11-15-2017, 09:31 PM
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What I don't get is that they give a number grade to oversized cards but will not put a number grade to a card that they deemed to be unaltered from the factory. That is why I am curious to what kind of response the graders would give.

Lee
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Old 11-15-2017, 09:48 PM
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Sorry thought that was a general question we typically see around here. Didn't notice it was from an auction house and about a specific issue.
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  #21  
Old 11-15-2017, 09:48 PM
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Sorry thought that was a general question we typically see around here. Didn't notice it was from an auction house and about a specific issue.
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  #22  
Old 01-16-2019, 08:03 AM
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With the "new" SGC - they offer a checkbox that says "Encapsulate if Altered" and then another one for "A Only" when you simply want an item authenticated but not graded. If I check "A Only" and the card is altered, does anyone know if the slab will say "Authentic Altered" or will it just say "Authentic"? I'm sending the item in question in anyway, probably - but just curious.
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  #23  
Old 01-16-2019, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jchcollins View Post
With the "new" SGC - they offer a checkbox that says "Encapsulate if Altered" and then another one for "A Only" when you simply want an item authenticated but not graded. If I check "A Only" and the card is altered, does anyone know if the slab will say "Authentic Altered" or will it just say "Authentic"? I'm sending the item in question in anyway, probably - but just curious.
I would NEVER check A only. If the item is able to get a numeric grade you want to try for that. If it is unable to, then you are happy to get it slabbed as "authentic".....at least I am!!
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Old 01-17-2019, 11:57 AM
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I also think there should be equality in grading!! If it is unaltered and authentic then give it a grade!! Big or small. Small cards need love too, especially if unaltered. TPGs should use their noggins.

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What I don't get is that they give a number grade to oversized cards but will not put a number grade to a card that they deemed to be unaltered from the factory. That is why I am curious to what kind of response the graders would give.

Lee
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Old 01-17-2019, 12:34 PM
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This has always annoyed me. With comics, CGC will label a comic Restored and point out the specific things done. Why hasn't this hobby follow suit? So you buy an A card and you really have no idea why its been given that designation. Maddening.
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Old 01-17-2019, 12:41 PM
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Without having to read every post - Does SGC provide an "Authentic-Altered" flip? There was an example of this for PSA. If someone has an SGC "Authentic-Altered" flip, can you please post a picture/scan.
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  #27  
Old 01-17-2019, 10:08 PM
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Default this is what i am talking about!

this is what I have been complaining about for a long long time!

wtf.....why can't they simply send a report with the card??? or label the flip correctly???????

"AUTH" is supposedly just trimmed cards, or missing a lot of real estate...

"ALTERED"- is anything "done" to the card like , add material, coloring, glue, extra "paper" ect WHICH I HATE HATE BEING DONE TO A CARD! any manipulation or foreign added "stuff" makes it altered....

I will buy a "trimmed card" but will not buy an "altered" card....

I had this problem with 2 higher profile cards that I was eyeing up- one is psa and one is sgc.....one card looks like it had "coloring" added to a significant wrinkle on the front, BUT WAS JUST GRADED " AUTH" !!!!!!!! UGH!!the other just graded as "AUTH" also, but just appears to be trimmed.....the owner of both cards was confused himself....

this is the problem- list what is wrong on the backside of the flip like a bvg report on corners, edges, ect


like- COLOR ADDED/ ERASURE/ PAPER ADDED/ ECT ECT

so simple!!!!!! I guess these grading companies like to be vague , this way they can cop out and just generally state "auth" or "altered" with rarely an explaination



soooooooooo stupid


so why not put the correct concern on the flip?????????!!!!!
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Old 01-17-2019, 10:55 PM
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In the last group sub, I sent this Mantle in. Wasn't expecting a high grade or anything by any means, but when it came back as "authentic" I was befuddled. There was no explanation whatsoever...

1965mantle350psa.jpg

Someone theorized that perhaps some sort of factory miscut led to that particular grade, but who knows? No matter what the reason is for the label, the moment anyone sees the word "authentic," they are going to read it as "altered" or worse.
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Old 01-17-2019, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvster View Post
"AUTH" is supposedly just trimmed cards, or missing a lot of real estate...

"ALTERED"- is anything "done" to the card like , add material, coloring, glue, extra "paper" ect WHICH I HATE HATE BEING DONE TO A CARD! any manipulation or foreign added "stuff" makes it altered....
Technically, I think a trimmed card is an "altered" card because it was "altered" by trimming.

I guess most anything that is AUTH is probably altered in some way. A good example of AUTH could be a skinned OJ. I suppose you could say it was altered because the back is peeled off (by accident or on purpose - does it really matter). The card wasn't trimmed.... just thinned....

Ok, so what is an AUTH card?

There have been threads about just how much alteration should be allowed before it's just a Franken-card. Wasn't there a Wagner T206 that appeared to have the sides trimmed, but after the "alteration" (they called it "restoration") the card had a standard width... that is just crazy... it's not even the same card when that much "alteration" takes place.
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Old 01-18-2019, 08:11 AM
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Agree 1000%

please read the wagner restoration thread....

absolute "creation" and "frankencard" a lot of work done to it , more than bruce jenner
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Old 01-18-2019, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T205 GB View Post
Authentic should be applied to any cards that have been treated roughly, hand cut, ect, ect, but not manipulated deliberately in anyway as to enhance the cards appeal or value.

Altered cards are cards that were deliberately altered to enhance the appeal and or value.

JMO
Did you make this definition up? Lots of old timers cut/trimmed their cards to fit in a sheet...in my opinion this is an altered card...and obviously not altered to enhance the appearance/aesthetic?
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Old 01-18-2019, 11:41 AM
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I haven't sent anything in for a long time, but this is how SGC did it if you didn't go with the simple "A" slab.


This card is factory, but the top and bottom cuts are really rough.

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Old 01-18-2019, 01:53 PM
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Agree 1000%

please read the wagner restoration thread....

absolute "creation" and "frankencard" a lot of work done to it , more than bruce jenner
Don't you mean "Caitlyn"? I had to google that spelling.... sorry but I'm still a little freaked out about it.... I remember the 76 Olympics and Bruce just killing it... No, I'm not a homo-phobe.
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Old 01-18-2019, 02:19 PM
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AUTH is applied to cards that are altered, in especially poor condition (ala piece missing or burnt) or for the rare especially obscure items where it's difficult to know how to grade them.

Someone can technically submit a perfectly fine card for an AUTH grade and I assume would get it, but this is rarely if ever done. Maybe it would be done with grade poor cards.

The exception to the above paragraph is with autographed cards, in particular autographs on cheapo cards, where all the autograph collector considers important is the authenticity of the autograph and perhaps the card. Many autographed cards are entombed without the card itself graded.

Duly note that, according to my personal grading standards, an altered card grades as poor. I'm talking about restored and trimmed cards, not trying to start a discussion/philosophical debate about how a minor errant pen mark affects numerical grade. If others disagree with that personal definition, that is fine by me. I'm not trying to enact it into hobby law, and can see the argument of AUTH being a special grade (or ungrade?) applied to 'less than poor' cards, if that's how one defines altered cards.

Last edited by drcy; 01-18-2019 at 03:14 PM.
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Old 03-12-2019, 03:08 AM
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Looks at the VCP pic of the Ramly Walter Johnson PSA 1.....guess burned cards can get a number grade.
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  #36  
Old 03-12-2019, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sterling Sports Auctions View Post
What I don't get is that they give a number grade to oversized cards but will not put a number grade to a card that they deemed to be unaltered from the factory. That is why I am curious to what kind of response the graders would give.

Lee
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Old 03-12-2019, 02:27 PM
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You're not the only one.
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