The problem with reading and posting here-will the person identify himself?

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Posted By: Bob

Lots of great people and dedicated collectors make this board very informative, fun, interesting and provide very few dull moments. I have to mention though that an incident on ebay has me shaking my head. The topic of trying to get a seller to close an auction early is a subkect that regularly comes up on this board. It appears that there are some who feel it is ok to ask a seller to end an auction early if there have been no bids and a smaller group which feels it is ok anytime, anywhere to ask a seller to close an auction regardless of bids. There is also a 3rd group which believes that it is not right or proper to ask a seller to close an auction under any circumstance once an auction has commenced. There are a number of sellers who feel this way and risk the possibility of less money but staunchly believe in not shutting down an auction.
Now that brings me to my tale. There were several cards posted on ebay in the minor league section which I found doing asearch for Obaks. They included several extremely nice 150 Series cards which would have been very nice upgrades and a bunch of nice E99s and E100s. The Obaks stayed around for about 6 days and were coming to the end. I had rather large snipe bids on all as did Joshua (as I found out later). All of a sudden the cards which had about 4 or 5 bids each and were rather low at that time in value, disappeared. The E99s and E100s went poof also.
The odd thing was that I heard through the grapevine that the guy who bought these cards and caused the auctions to close down is one of the biggest advocates on this board of "it is very unethical and just plain wrong" to have sellers end auctions early. I am just curious if the guy who ended up with these cards will be willing to admit what he did and justify his position. If it is the same person who had been so sanctimonious about attempts to end auctions, I'm sure a lot of people would be interested in listening to why these transactions somehow didn't apply and don't count...

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Posted By: fkw

Hi Bob, I also had some snipe bids on a couple of the T212-2 150's myself. I was unhappy to see the auctions ended and wrote the seller but have not heard back for the reason he ended yet.

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Posted By: Charlie O'Neal

Since there are two auctions going on right now where the ending the auction early tatic has been used I just wanted to end any speculation that I am the one trying to end auctions early. The reason I bring this up is b/c I have the same first name as the person that has tried to do it for two current auctions and in the Q/A section it has me asking one question and then the very next person with the same name is trying to end it early.

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Posted By: John S

I must admit for very rare items on my want list (items that in my estimation have the potential to be offered for auction about once every couple of years) I will email sellers to end items early. I do this to protect myself from losing the item in just the manner that you described. In the past ten years I probably have done this five times; and in each instance was politely declined. I understand your frustration.

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Posted By: Paul Moss

I sell both coins and cards on the bay of e, and what is peculiar to card collectors is the fact that 90% of the bidders wait until the last 30 seconds before bidding out of some fear that they will be run up in price if they place a strong bid with a few days to go. In other areas, an item is often at 2/3rds. of its eventual closing price/value with days to go, yet cards are in a world of their own with many, many items increasing by a factor of 5 or 10 in those precious few remaining seconds.

So look upon the position of the average seller who really isn't attune to the game. He's seeing his card lot flounder, literally dying on the vine, no interest, a pathetic price level where he'd rather burn the card than sell at that level, and collector X comes along and pulls the rug from under everyone by offering what is 99% of the time, a low steal price, but looks mighty good to the frantic seller. Frankly, who can blame the poor guy? Those who are sitting with their snipes programmed in, stopwatches calibrated to the Naval Observatory, waiting patiently for the last three seconds have only themselves to blame for this situation. If the seller could actually see that his lot was doing OK with a few days left, he'd be inclined to let the lot run its course. God forbid anyone actually places a real bid, but what it truy amusing is when an item is at a reasonably decent level, no steal, but substantially under market, everyone is scared away on the theory that they'll be a land rush at the end, only to find that the lot closed at that lower sub-market level.

When I list vintage cards, I get bombarded with emails offering what is usually insulting offers as if I had just fallen off the hay wagon....and yes, some of them come from members on this very board. I'll be listing a large grouping of pre-WW1 "stuff" this Sunday night, and I know damned well that on Monday morning, my mailbox will be crammed with "generous" offers which will continue throughout the week. I try to be nice and explain that my partner wants the lot to continue to run until the end. I have no partner, but it sounds so much better than what I'd really like to tell these people. On the other hand, who can really blame them when the practice has become so rampant? Honestly, I have had emails saying thanks, and that they just wanted to make sure that they would have a chance at the cards and not have the rug pulled from under them.

This cheapness/snipe/poker game mentality has created a true monster in the card world, and truly, I don't think that anyone wins as a result.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...with ending an auction early. It is frustrating only for would-be bidders. But even if I did, I think you have to take the tactic that if you really want something and are afraid that the seller will end his auction early that you send him an e-mail making him a good offer for the cards. That way (a) he knows his cards have value above the current bid, and (b) you become part of the consideration if he decides to end his auction early.

If ending auctions early is a part of the ebay process, it is best not to ignore it and hope it will go away, but instead strategically place yourself in the best position to acquire the cards.

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Posted By: Dan Kravitz

OK, my guess is that no one wants to admit they ask a seller to end an auction early for fear that their peers will think less of them. I have to admit that I sometimes ask a seller to sell me a card before the auction has ended for 2 reasons. The first is to find out if I can circumvent the obvious and get the card at my price. The second is to find out if the seller would even sell the card before the auction ends, so I know if it worth pursuing. I have, by the way, been asked to end an auction early by some of our very own board members, and I do not see a problem with it. It may not be the "fair" way of acquiring what you want, but who said anything about being fair. If the seller and buyer want to work out a deal outside of the auction, so be it. It's a tough world out there and it's not getting any easier.

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Posted By: Paul Moss

Business is business, and I fully understand the reasons for taking this path. My rant was not about the actual commission of offering to close the auction, but more of an examination of the dynamics of this peculiarity to the card world.

Please allow me to join in by saying that I too make offers for people to close their auctions early. It's called survival in the jungle.

Except, of course my offers are exceedingly generous. Sort of...........

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Paul... ch-ch-ching! Good call!

I've had the rug pulled out from under me so many times that I almost expect it to happen. Every once in a while I'll employ the same tactic if I feel I might have a chance to get the item. Within the last couple of months I was fortunate enough to come up lucky on one item I really wanted. The auction was a 10 day auction, it had a reserve and by the fifth day the bids were minimal. I had a feeling that snipes were set. I contacted the seller and asked about the reserve, then I asked about selling the card $100 over the reserve, he jumped on it because the bidding was dismal and the seller probably didn't understand the snipe bidding dynamic too well. I'm pretty sure there were a few disappointed potenial snipers out there but that's the risk you take when you play try to play the last 3 or 4 seconds as the time to start the bidding war. If the seller is a regular seller of vintage material then there's less chance of getting them to sell early. If the seller doesn't know any better then a decent offer may be enticing enough to pull the auction. I'm not an advocate of ending auctions early but I can't blame people for trying, especially when you've been beaten by the tactic a few times.

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Posted By: Steve M.

in on the E99 and E100. I emailed the seller and told him so and gave him my snipes (in excess of $400 each) and told him if he sold for less it was his loss. I mentioned too (and it appears from these posts to be true) that other PCL collectors likely had snipes in as well.

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Posted By: Jeff

"Clearing my name April 1 2006, 3:06 AM

Since there are two auctions going on right now where the ending the auction early tatic has been used I just wanted to end any speculation that I am the one trying to end auctions early. The reason I bring this up is b/c I have the same first name as the person that has tried to do it for two current auctions and in the Q/A section it has me asking one question and then the very next person with the same name is trying to end it early.

Also, I would like to point out for anyone interested in the auction where this shows up that I have withdrawn interest in the auction b/c of the sellers bull**** tatic of posting my email address and potential bid in his auction to drive the price up."

Question from the auction.

"Would you please send me a pick of the card with my name written on a peice of paper please and send to charlieoneal@comcast.net. I know it's a little extra work but just want to be safe before I place my bid of around $600. Also, since I live in Philly to would there be anyway to wave the shipping charges and just pick it up in person and pay cash for it at that time? Thanks, Charlie"

Charlie,

I really don't understand how this is a "bull**** tactic" on the part of the seller. You asked a question which I personally don't fully understand the wanting a pic of the card with your name on a piece of paper. You say to be safe but how does the seller doing that make it safe for you? And you have to know by now that any question that is asked on eBay can show up in the auction itself if the seller chooses that option when answering.

Not trying to start anything here. Just trying to understand why the seller has been accused of a "bull**** tactic".


Jeff

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Posted By: Kary

Hi everyone,
This is my first time posting to this board. I am the seller of the Walter Johnson and Ty Cobb T206's that are discussed in the 2nd post.

I want everyone to know that the Charlie who e-mailed me asking me to end my auctions early is NOT Charlie O'Neal.

Edited.

Charlie,
I honestly just screwed up and wasn't trying to drive up the bidding.

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Posted By: Charlie O'Neal

Questions that have a bidders personal information or bid information in them can not be posted in the Q&A section of an auction b/c of privacy issues. Maybe this is in my own warped mind but the way I vew it is everyone now knows where i plan to bid thus raising the potential price of the auction.

The request for a scan with my name written on it is something I ask for if I do not know the seller on higher dollar items to make sure the scan is not stolen.

I will go back and edit my first commit since it may have been a little to harsh.

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Posted By: Jeff

Charlie,

That's what I thought you meant about wanting the scan but never heard of someone wanting their name on it.

If I was a seller and someone asked me that question I would have been a little leary in thinking that whoever asked me that might be trying to set up a scam. I mean if someone had a scan of a high dollar item with their name on it what would stop them from putting up an auction claiming that they owned it?

Anyway thanks for clearing that up for me.

Jeff

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Posted By: Charlie O'Neal

Thanks for pointing out that a seller could take it as a scam. I never really thought about it that way. I have actually never had a problem with the request so never thought about that. I was looking at when I requested this that you do own the card and it's in your possession right now. Normally when a scan comes back the paper covers the entire card except for the PSA/SGC information so it would be hard for someone to claim it as their own.

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Posted By: jackgoodman

If I'm interested in an item on Ebay, I'll email the seller and politely ask if they had a Buy It Now price in mind. I know that this is just another way of attempting to end the auction early, but 1) it never hurts to ask and 2) there is nothing wrong with it.

I've also sniped items. There are probably just as many people who believe sniping is wrong as there are those that think attempting to end an auction early is wrong. Both will continue and we just have to adjust for that fact of Ebay life. My 2cents.

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Posted By: Larry

I am totally in agreement with Paul Moss...If those that live by the snipe and wait so patiently to try to "get the best deal" so that the price is not driven up, there are just as deservant a seller should be able to take an offer that is deemed reasonable..The fair way e bay should operate is similar to major auctions in that you must have put a bid in at some point in order to have extended bidding time..or in this case to snipe, this way no one would end early or at least have the option of extending bidding lets say for 3 minutes after only if there was some prior bid that way dealers will not send their best cards to major auctions only. Look how the quality of pre war cards on e bay has dropped, everyone knows that they can sell it thru auction houses and are protected from sniping..I understand those that prefer to bid only at the end but that is why I will consider a fair offer as long as it is not within 24 hours of closing. If I see there is no action on a card, that is a seller's option just like it is a buyer's option to wait. This is a policy that probably will not change, if everyone waited until the end and there was no bidding, only garbage would be offered on e bay.

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Posted By: Martin Neal

I would like to know who talked the seller of the t205 Moran stray line to end the auction early? This happened on March 23rd. I guess I would like to offer my congrats. I did email the seller and he said he decided to keep the card but, I've got a suspicion that he sold it.
Perhaps the only recourse is to ask a seller if there is a bin price and if there is not one, to please contact if you feel you need to sell and end the auction early.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Cards collecting is not the only place sniping and no bids until the last second happen. When I had my gaming and comic store we did a brisk business in vintage toys in the mid to late 90s. The bidding was as cutthroat as anything you see in the vintage card market with same complaints about sniping, auctions ending early and all the other complaints you hear here.

I think the reason you don't see it in coins and stamps is that those markets are quite mature with more well heeled collectors that know the market and not a lot of new blood. The card market ont he other hand is still very much a wild west atmostphere with many new collectors with lots of money and desire to one up other collectors. It's cheaper adn easier to do that in the card world than it is in the coin world.

Jay

WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

One thing folks who deride sniping are forgetting is that with ebay your "name" is out there if you bid early and it can be tracked. I initially started using a snipe program because I learned that there were certain collectors who searched my name as a bidder to see what I was chasing after (mostly in the boxing card arena). They'd let me do the hard work of ferretting out the cards then they'd jump in and take them. To this day when I see something really rare and I want to enter an early bid so that the seller doesn't end run me, I will use a friend's ebay account to bid on it just so I won't be tracked. I also had a malicious collector on my tail who would purposely run up my bids on certain cards, so I had to start sniping. In other words, it isn't that simple when it comes to sniping.

Moving on to the second issue, I see nothing wrong with asking a seller to end it now. I ended a couple of my recent dump day sales early in response to such requests. If I want a specific price and someone offers to meet it directly or offers me a good trade, fine. Business is business. Like it or not, this silliness is big business. Our current poll is a good indicator of that. I don't know how many of you answered the poll honestly, but I really had to think about it for a while before honestly answering that the biggest factor in my purchase decisions nowadays is price. There are precious few cards I can say that I will top all bids on, and there are a lot of cards I regularly bid on that I go after only because the price is right.

I had no involvement in the auctions in question but I also see no reason why a person who gets an auction ended early would have to feel motivated to come in here and get beaten over the head with the sanctimoniousness stick for doing it. Here is a no-surprise factoid about life in the USA in 2006: there is a huge disconnect between the ideals people espouse and the actions they take. It permeates all aspects of public and private life. I spend many hours counseling people who are otherwise good and "moral" to not engage in business practices that are anything but. So someone says it is wrong to end an auction early and then does it? Surprise, they are typical Americans.

I also have a couple of comments for the folks who complain about auctions ending early:

(1) There is no empirical evidence that the sellers who are ending auctions early are ignorant or are not getting as much as they would have if they'd let the sales run to the end. Since the sale ended early, we don't know. You all are assuming that the price was low. It may have been higher than your snipes.

(2) It seems to me that there is a bit of intellectual dishonesty here. If the seller is selling a $200 card for $1,000, no one seems to complain if the listing disappears; it is the $1,000 card with a bid of $200 that is getting everyone's goat. I suspect that much of the teeth-gnashing comes from folks who wanted to snipe that $1,000 card at $500 and are mad that someone beat them to the punch by end-running their snipes.

You don't have to sit there and eat crap on these auctions, folks. A strategy you might try (I do it from time to time) is to put in a bid early on at a very solid price and leave a snipe for your highest price. If I see a card that I want to own for $500, I might bid $400 to protect myself and create a $500 snipe.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

You don't have to bid on an item to track it. If you set up myebay you can track different items without having to worry about someone watching what your watching. Adam, I know exactly what you mean. It used to be the only way to track something was to either write the item number down or bid on it. The ebay improvements have made that unnecessary. In the past you could find out what a certain person was bidding on and let them do the dirty search work for you. Now that doesn't have to be the case.

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Posted By: J Levine

In Bob's orginal post, I am the Joshua who had snipes placed. I also had the high bids on many of the cards that ended early. Yes, I was annoyed. I have no problem asking to end an auction early in two circumstances only. If there are no bids or if I am the high bidder. In this instance, I did not ask the seller to end early...maybe I should have. I was annoyed. I was more annoyed that the seller ignored my e-mails for an explanation afterwards.

Adam and I have talked about his subject before also. I have used some well-known ebay handles to track some stuff as well and I know of at least two people (including one board member) who uses mine as well. Let it be know though that I do have one other ebay handle that I keep secret for really neat stuff. I came later to the Obaks and already saw some familiar names in the bidding so I figured I would bid to watch and set a snipe. I am pretty sure with Frank, Bob, and myself bidding, the seller lost money.

I did see the Moran end early as well and congrats on whoever got it as well. Again, was watching and had a snipe set on that as well. Lately my bids have been cancelled more than usual. Not sure if this is a trend but it is frustrating.

I was hoping to see the OBAKS come up in the recent pick up threads to see who is kicking my butt lately.

Joshua

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I track 75-100 auctions a week through ebay for my book research. Tracking isn't the issue, it is people using my name to find items of interest.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

My general selling pattern is to have 95% of my items in my eBay store. It's buy it or don't buy it. Most of the items list are unique and I try to have a fair price. Potential buyers ask questions before puchasing. There are no 'make a best offers,' but it's okay to email an offer and I'll change the BIN. Someone recently asked if I would lower the price on a baseball, I thought it over then did.

For the BIN, the sales price includes the shipping cost-- a specific shipping charge is not listed. In other words, the sales price is the amount it costs for the purchaser to own and receive the item. A buyer asked me how much it costs me to ship an 8x10 photo to Austria and I said, "I have no idea. I'll find out at the Post Office when I mail it."

I will put things up for straight auction so they can be in an auction, and there are no games. I put things in an auction to get them sold right away.

I much prefer the BIN sale to an auction and sell much more that way. The BIN sale is a sale, the eBay auction is often closer flea market.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Adam,

I didn't realize that people could find out what you are tracking on ebay if you are only watching the item. I thought that they could only track something if you were bidding on it. However I think there may be a limitation on the number of items you can track/watch without bidding on the items.

I suppose if you were trying to track 100 items then the only way would be to bid on the items and have myebay track them in that manner. I could be wrong.

Is what I stated above correct?

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Posted By: martin dalziel

I don't think you can see who has added items to their tracking list - only to those things that they've bid on.

I'm with Adam - i don't bid early because i don't want people letting me do all the hunting and they just follow my lead. I spend a lot of time and effort looking for things in tucked away places with poor descriptions. Most of the time there's someone right there at the end who has found the item just like me, but every once in a while i'm the lone bidder at the end.

I've also asked people if they have a BIN price in mind and have had some auctions closed early because i've agreed to pay what they've asked. Lately i've lost out on a couple of these because someone else came behind me and either offered more than what the seller agreed to or the seller had a new BIN for that person. Sometimes even though you think you've won an item you haven't.

Tbob's original post was asking whether the person who has said that ending auctions early was wrong and then appeared to have asked a seller to do just that, would admit that they had done such a thing. I doubt that they will - hypocrite is not a nice moniker.

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Posted By: leonl

I've only made offers to end auctions early when no bids were placed yet. With all of the folks making offers, as seen in this thread, I will most likely disregard my own personal feelings and make offers.....When in Rome I guess....(I still think it sucks though).....regards

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Posted By: Bob

I think Paul Moss is right on the money in his post and I agree with it completely. I also believe Adam is correct with his views but I don't believe anyone can find out which cards you are "watching" on ebay unless you place a bid on it. Isn't this correct?
I guess the whole point on my thread was the hypocrisy I saw (if what I was told is true) in someone questioning other collectors' scruples while doing the very same thing when no one was looking. Frankly I don't care, if a guy wants to try and end an auction early or not, just have the guts to defend your position (as several here have) and not castigate and demean others for doing the exact thing you did. When collector B finds out collector A ends an auction early and then emails the seller and threatens him with expulsion from ebay for his act, don't 2 years later turn around and do the very same thing. Also, don't post on the board that you believe asking sellers to end auctions early is tantamount to lack of character and then 6 months later do the exact same thing.
I don't care which camp anyone is in, just don't be a hypocrite about it.
Also to answer Adam's rhetorical question about why wouldn't you bid $400 on a $500 card to protect yourself: 1) there are collectors out there who would see my (or others) ebay name bidding on a card and figure I was on to something and the next time I looked the bid would have gone from $35 to $405. It's happened many times before; and 2) I have been told many times that my "tbob" bidding list is marked and watched by different collectors. On the 150 Series Obak cards, I'll be quite honest, I knew if I entered a bid on any one of the cards, I would have a swarm of PCL collectors spot my name and be bidding. So I, like Joshua, Frank and others, had the sniper set. In retrospect I see exactly what Paul was talking about, that the seller panicked when NRMT rare cards were going for $35 each and sold them. Curiously he sold only the best ones and left the few others remaining on ebay and they were sold for below average values simply (in my mind) because with so many of them being pulled from ebay, buyers didn't know any were still left.
I'll be interested to see when the Obaks hit ebay, either graded this time or raw. Frankly I have a feeling the 150 series cards and the Bishops will settle in to someone's collection, at least until the heat blows over.

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Posted By: Paul Stratton

Does anyone know exactly how much time was left in the auctions when they were ended? I was watching them as well and it seemed there wasn't that much time left(under a day).

When you are selling something it tells you how many people are watching your items. He/she must have seen a lot watchers based on what people have said in this thread. I always count on my "watchers" to bid more than my current bidders when selling an item.

I personally don't think it's a good way to do business but to each his own I guess.

Paul

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I'm not condoning anything and don't end an auction early if there is a bid, but I firmly beleive that snipers and last second bargain hunters contribute to auctions ending early. If a seller sees little to no bidding on his eBay cards days into an auction and is worried about them going for rock bottom, he may be happy to end an auction early to sell at a fair price. If a $200 card is sitting at 99 cents for five and a half days, many sellers would be relieved that someone wants to buy it for $180. If there was healthy bidding on the card, he likely wouldn't entertain the offer. And the reason it's sitting at 99 cents for five days is because of snipers and last second bargain bidders.

Most eBay sellers are less concerned about about the $200 card selling for $400 than the $200 card selling for the $9.99. And anyone who has sold on eBay has had the proverbial $200 card sell for $9.99. Snipers play into the sellers' fears that the $200 card will sell for $9.99.

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Posted By: Bob

Paul- that's a good point that the number of watchers should have told the seller something. I agree with David that sniping has probably given seller's cold feet but if you don't believe in trying to get a seller to end an auction early or if you try and he won't, sniping is your only and last resort. Personally I detest sniping, especially when you are bidding against a collector friend who you didn't know had entered a bid, either because he is sniping also, or you set your sniper 4 days ago and didn't go back and check and saw when the auction was over that earlier that day your friend had entered a bid. On the other hand, I do sometimes snipe, it is just too hard to go wire to wire anymore on ebay and win a card.
Bob

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Posted By: Ben

Add my name to the list of ebayers who were disappointed to see those Bishops end early. At the very least, I hope the seller got a decent price because if the auctions had run their course, there would have been some spirited bidding at the end to say the least (my snipe on the one I wanted was $400+ as well).

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Posted By: martin dalziel

As a seller you cannot rely on the watchers list to be the sole indicator of interest. I watch and track a lot of items on Ebay, but i don't use Ebay to track them - i use my own bookmarks in 'my favorites'. If a particular seller has a lot of items of interest to me, i track the sellers list and not the individual items - again via my bookmarks.

As a seller, the number of hits an item has is a better indicator of interest to me - i've got some records i'm selling on Ebay right now. One of them has 87 hits, with 6 people having adding it to their 'watch list'. Hits isn't alwys that good of an indicator either as many people come back multiple times a day to see if anything changed.

I guess the conclusion here is that if you're interested in an item and want the seller to know that, then you're best to add it to your watch list, visit the auction multiple times so the 'hits' counter is high, and bid early to indicate interest. Sellers fly pretty much blind, especially if they're selling items that they don't know much about.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

As far as I know, a watch list cannot be tracked by another user; I was referring to tracking after placing bids early as the reason why I had to switch to sniper services. I sell too and I watch the watchers. I am glad to have that feature because I use it as a shorthand to determine the level of real interest in my items.

It seems to me that a lot of the seller panic could be avoided if sellers would post realistic reserve and starting prices. If you have a $1,000 card and want to see it get over $700, post a reserve or start it there. Someone who wants it will pay for it and ebay will refund the reserve fee. The problem is the mentality that says you have to post a ridiculous starting price to get "action" on your auction. My experience is that when I put up a quality item at a realistic price, it sells. When I put up a dodgy item or a ridiculous price, it doesn't. Vintage collectors aren't dumb; they pay for quality items. One of the reasons I really don't like auction houses in general is that they post such ridiculously low starting prices. My last consignment actually sold at the starting price and I was plenty pissed. I'd rather have ebay'ed the card myself or kept it.

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Posted By: Mark Evans

I agree with Adam's points that it is ok to snipe and to ask sellers to end auctions early. I would add one more point though.

While people who engage in hypocrisy (saying it is wrong to end an auction early and then doing it), may in fact be typical Americans, we should condemn the practice as (forgive the philosophizing) we would all be better off with less hypocrisy in the world. Mark

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Posted By: jay behrens

anandale counters only counts unique IP addresses. If you go back multiple times over multiple days, it only records you as on hit on the counter.

Jay

WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

It should be noted that, at least initially, many manual bidders considered sniping to be unethical. In fact, I bet that many of these collectors would have considered sniping more unfair to other bidders than ending an auction early.

If this was nine years ago and a board member A sniped auctions from other board members, there likely would be angry posts about how member A acted unethically.

To me it looks as if bidders widely picked up a technique that was once considered unfair, and in response sellers have picked up a technique that many currently consider unfair.

Lastly, I ask, 'What is the bidder's purpose to place snipe bids?' To get the lowest sale price possible, of course. One would have to be naive to think sellers wouldn't be looking for techniques to counter that.

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Posted By: martin dalziel

Jay, i didn't know that, so thanks.

Good, I've got a lot more people looking than i thought. Now if four of five of them would just bid, i'll feel a lot better. Records are a lot like cards - lots of last minute action, especially on the tough stuff, so i won't know the real interest until its over.

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Posted By: jay behrens

The thing I've noticed with LPs is that the best sellers are of obscure Jazz and Latin music. The main reason for this is DJ are always looking for material to loop and use in their music without having to pay any royalties. It can backfire, as in the case of the group RAdiohead that used some vocals from an old 30s blues song and a relative of that musician recognized the loop. Radiohead ended up losing big bucks and disbanded because of the lawsuit.

Jay

WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: Paul Stratton

Maybe the next step could be to find out where the seller lives and make him "...an offer he can't refuse". Just accost the seller at home or work and throw wads of cash at him/her and refuse to leave without the card(s). Money will make people do crazy things. How far off can this be?

I listed some low pop t206 psa 7's last year and it was truly sickening to hear grown men beg and plead to have me end the auctions early. Have they no shame. Especially the clowns who say "I'll give you $100 for it", like I have no idea what I am selling. When someone lowballs me I tend to actually raise the price specifically for them.

The Don

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Posted By: Bob

David- I remember the first time anyone ever used a sniping service against me, it was Doug Schwartz user id vendomecat. It turned out when I got to know him that he was a nice guy but at the time when he sniped me on 8 straight E98s, I was shell shocked and, as you correctly mentioned in your post, screaming at him from my computer room. I couldn't figure out how he was manually doing that, since the auctions all ended almost simultaneously. Not long after that someone told me there was such a thing as a sniping service. I thought it was flat out wrong, evil and downright dodgey for anyone to use one. You are right David, my how times have changed...

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Posted By: Kary

"anandale counters only counts unique IP addresses. If you go back multiple times over multiple days, it only records you as on hit on the counter."

Jay,
I'm pretty sure you can choose whether your counter adds a hit or not if the same user refreshes the page.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefieldf

Just for a moment, you guys, imagine how eBay auctions would work if there were no sniping...

I was winning on 2 of the Bishops cards when the auction was cancelled. And I REALLY wanted that Pop Dillon Obak, which I was winning. I wasn't done bidding, but I bid in, even though people could search by bidder...

I did email the seller and I told him that I was done bidding on a couple of lots that he didn't end early, which I would have bid more on, but for the fact that he'd ended the Bishop cards and the Dillon Obak.

So.... good for whoever got the cards, hope he got a deal.

A good way for you guys to keep these things from ending early is to bid 'em on up at the "git go", instead of sniping around like theives in the night. If you guys will bid early, proudly, and seriously, then the early endings would cease. I was top bidder on several of the early ending lots. If you snipers had bid a decent amount early on, then whether I was still high or you were, either way, the bid would be sufficiently high so as to encourage the seller to see the auction to its normal conclusion.

So I suggest that if you want to do something about it, then bid on eBay, instead of sniping there and whining here.

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Posted By: Matthew

I'd be curious to know what the E99 & the Henley would have sold for vs. the actual price paid. Man, I really wanted that Henley 150 series. I knew I would not be around for the end of the auction, so I got up before work that morning to put in a big bid & could not find it anywhere

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Posted By: jay behrens

I haven't looked at the Anadale site lately, but I am not aware of any option that lets you choose between all hits and unique hits. I know the counters offered thru TurboLister is unique hits and I am sure that is what most people use.

Jay

I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home, I would be arrested. So, I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: Bob

Frank- I understand and sympathize with your post but as someone who has been shot down time and time again by a snipe bid after leading for 7 days on a card, you aren't being realistic. The purpose of the snipe bid is, as stated above, to enable you to catch other bidders unaware with a bid sufficient to win an item and also to not leave the other bidders any opportunity to respond. I tend to usually bid a middle amount on cards, more than just a "bookmark" bid but less than I would spend to win the card. After examining bidding patterns and the bids themselves, I try to come up with an amount which I could live with and either enter a snipe bid or cross my fingers and hope no one will bid higher at the end.
The problem with snipers is that there are tons of them and rarely can you win a card without sniping.
Now, getting back to the Obaks and Bishops. Since they were placed in the minor league section instead of the pre-war section, the cards were seen by far fewer people. This was evident as I watched the bids from Day 1 and didn't see the names of any of the heavy hitters on PCL cards showing up. I see now that several guys like Frank and Joshua and Steve and others were thinking the same way I was and had snipe bids set. From what I understand and believe, had the Bishops not been pulled it would have taken a bid of around $550-700 each to win the cards and the Obaks cards (4 nicest which were pulled) would have required a bid of $250-400 each based on snipe totals.
So Frank, unless you were prepared to go much higher, you wouldn't have won them. If sniping weren't allowed, the bidding may have gone even higher because you would have had many bidders bidding against each other in a competitive and revealed manner. There could have been a "feeding frenzy" bidding pattern. I've seen those before.
Bottom line- Frank I don't think sniping or no sniping made any difference with the one exception that the seller got cold feet when bids from the first 6 days were very low.

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Posted By: Bob

"A good way for you guys to keep these things from ending early is to bid 'em on up at the "git go", instead of sniping around like theives in the night. If you guys will bid early, proudly, and seriously, then the early endings would cease. I was top bidder on several of the early ending lots." - Frank Wakefield.

Frank- I checked your high bids on the Obaks Henley, Steen and Willett and they were $11.00, $8.62 and $11.00. Since the cards would have gone for at least $250 each, do you really think that you "bid 'em up" as you said the others should have done?

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Posted By: ScottM

Most eBay sellers are less concerned about about the $200 card selling for $400 than the $200 card selling for the $9.99. And anyone who has sold on eBay has had the proverbial $200 card sell for $9.99. Snipers play into the sellers' fears that the $200 card will sell for $9.99.
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Quite frankly if the seller is worried about what the card MIGHT sell for then he/she shouldn't place it up for auction.

There are stores on ebay to place your goods, you can own a retail shop, you can advertise your cards and ask for offers. Once you put the item up for bid that should be it. My time is valuable and the practice of ending auctions is wasting my time.

Yes business is business, and business has rules, standards and ethics. Don't want to sell the card for 9.99 then don't put it up for auction.

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Posted By: peter ullman

i can add a little insight to the situation tbob...but not the whole story. let me 1st say I've never asked anyone to end an auction early becaus65e I am against it...so here goes.

I too was watching those ecards and some of the obaks. i was getting ready to leave town wed night and I was very interested in the e99,and 2 e100's. i emailed the seller who frequents this board and asked him if he'd consider ending the auctions early for me cuz i was leaving town and would not have access to a computer. i offered $650 for the 3 cards which I thought was very fair. seller said he'd think about it and email me in the morning. he never did, but i saw the auctions were closed so i thought i'd be ok. 3 days later seller emailed me saying he'd sold them for substantially higher than my offer was. i wss pissed at the lack of communication from the seller.

when i made my offer the total of the 3 cards was @$100. i aplogized to the seller when i made the offer for asking him to end the auction early as i've never done it and hate it when others do it.

i apologize if i angered anyone...i am very ethical and moral in general and this is probably why my collecti0on is average...i don't go for the jugular like many on this board do!

pete ullman in mn

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Posted By: Kary

Jay,
I went to the Andale page and at the bottom there is a link for "Edit Counter Style". In there you have the following options. I prefer the unique views.

Counter Type:

Unique Views (Recommended. Doesn't count consecutive refreshes by same buyer)

Page Views (Counts every time the page is refreshed)
Options: Border