NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you give an opinion of a person or company your full name needs to be in your post. Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #161  
Old 01-13-2018, 10:06 PM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is online now
Scott Russell
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,067
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exhibitman View Post
No, there isn't in the commercial context. I am sure I will get some flack for this but anyway:

I disagree philosophically with your premise. We have a large, diverse populace and extensive laws to govern commercial transactions. They represent a hard-fought social consensus among very different people over what is acceptable commercial behavior. Without a settled framework of laws that controls these commercial situations we are left with no basic agreement on right and wrong and cannot transact. Anything beyond the law is a value judgment that does not reflect a social consensus.

It also raises my hackles to read labels like moral or ethical applied to commercial situations. Labels matter. By claiming that your position is "moral" or "ethical" you necessarily make any contrary view to yours immoral or unethical. If you label my position as immoral or unethical at the outset, no further rational discussion between us is possible and there can be no compromise or negotiations because your world view cannot tolerate a different position--the outcome would be unethical or immoral by definition.

Taking the current situation, I am of the belief that M had every right to consult an attorney and find out what his rights were. I believe he would have found that a thief cannot convey good title and that he was legally obligated to return the cards. Had it been the case that he obtained good title to the cards by reason of being a good faith bona fide purchaser, or a resident of a weird jurisdiction like Texas, I believe he could have retained the cards. If he elected to return them to A despite the law, that is his choice. I am not willing to make that decision for him and label him immoral or unethical if he decides not to do something he is not legally required to do. Now, given that A and M know each other and are in a network of friends and contacts in the hobby and there are a variety of extra-legal social pressures involved, M made a decision to return the cards immediately regardless of anything else because he knew A was telling the truth and that he would have paid a terrible social price for not doing so. I completely understand that position and appreciate it from that standpoint and applaud M for his decision to act immediately and decisively--it makes him a good friend--but I would have been open to listening to him had he reached a different decision based on controlling laws. I would not label him moral or immoral, ethical or unethical for doing what was legally required of him. He was entirely innocent in this mess and has suffered a significant financial loss. He has he right to question whether he should bear all of that loss; I would not hold that against him and label him unethical or immoral if he hesitated to hand over the cards.

I also take great issue with the view expressed by some (not you; I just don't want to write a separate post) that A has to file criminal charges against his brother to prove he is legit. Those of you who take that stance may not appreciate the terrible dynamics that a junkie can impose on a family. I am not just speaking abstractly. My sister was a junkie; she had the good grace to OD years ago. She stole some of my cards once and sold them to card stores around my town. I wanted to get my cards back and wanted to press charges but my mother begged me not to, so I did not report her to the police. Does that mean I am not entitled to retrieve my cards from the dealers she sold them to? FWIW, I decided in that situation to pay a dealer what he paid for my cards to get some of them back. I did not have to do so--a thief cannot convey good title in CA--but I chose to do so to resolve the matter without further pain to my parents. I also chose to label the dealer a crooked pig for recognizing that he was unlawfully selling stolen goods and jacking me up for cash to get them back, and I badmouthed him and his establishment until the day he died.
Then why do many professions and professional organizations have codes of ethics? Check the definitions I feel ethics and morality, while related, are not synonymous.
__________________
Great experience buying from edjs and mybuddyinc. Check out my ebay store, weird, eclectic, accurate, and reasonable! http://stores.ebay.com/Aquarian-Sports-Cards Also check out http://www.birminghamauctioneers.com
Reply With Quote
  #162  
Old 01-13-2018, 10:18 PM
BeanTown's Avatar
BeanTown BeanTown is offline
Jay Cee
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,022
Default

Chris, Not sure who called you a scumbag, but it wasn't me as Jeff eluded too. I just heard the "sleezy" conversation with you discussing this with another guy. I also thanked you for coming on and posting.

Did, the two other people in the pipeline get named who had some or all of the stolen collection, before Chris got involved? Where is Zach's Brother at now, as this happened a couple years ago. Maybe he is on the road to recovery.
__________________
Love Ty Cobb rare items
Reply With Quote
  #163  
Old 01-13-2018, 11:20 PM
timn1 timn1 is offline
Tim Newcomb
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Illinois
Posts: 650
Default Thank you Chris

For making a fair offer to share the burden with Mike, which is what I have been hoping for .

I want to make it clear to you and to everyone that I never sought to portray you as dishonest or a scumbag, etc. There is too much of that kind of junk talk around already. I just didn’t want to see mike get stuck with the whole burden.

Now, where is Zach in all this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by the-illini View Post
+1

While I didn't agree with how Chris handled this originally I respect him for coming on here and taking the heat while trying to make things better.

Chris Bland
Reply With Quote
  #164  
Old 01-14-2018, 07:02 AM
calvindog's Avatar
calvindog calvindog is offline
Jeffrey Lichtman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,614
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanTown View Post
Chris, Not sure who called you a scumbag, but it wasn't me as Jeff eluded too. I just heard the "sleezy" conversation with you discussing this with another guy.
Correct, my apologies. "Sleezy" (sic) but no scumbag. And I didn't say he was a scumbag, just that for $3700 of money made off stolen goods, this would cause people to think that. Based on the number of posters who claimed they wouldn't do business with Chris again and Tim's question if we even wanted someone like this in our hobby, my admonition seems accurate.

Last edited by calvindog; 01-14-2018 at 07:35 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #165  
Old 01-14-2018, 08:07 AM
Michael Peich's Avatar
Michael Peich Michael Peich is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 744
Default

I agree with Chris Bland and others that Chris Buckler has willingly come to the forum to present his sense of the matter, and he is to be commended for that. I wrote him this morning and accepted his offer of $1850.

Regards,
Mike
__________________
http://t209-contentnea.com
Buying 1905-1915 Southern League cards, PCs, & memorabilia / T210: Series 2, 3, 4, 6, 7 & 8
Reply With Quote
  #166  
Old 01-14-2018, 08:47 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 13,496
Default

Call the next case.
__________________
Buy high, sell low.
Reply With Quote
  #167  
Old 01-15-2018, 09:36 PM
Exhibitman's Avatar
Exhibitman Exhibitman is offline
Ad@m W@r$h@w
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Beautiful Downtown Burbank
Posts: 6,590
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards View Post
Then why do many professions and professional organizations have codes of ethics? Check the definitions I feel ethics and morality, while related, are not synonymous.
They don't, at least not in the sense you are loosely using the terms. A voluntary organization can ask its members to adhere to certain standards but there is no requirement that a person join the organization or adhere to the standards it sets. If a professional organization has an enforceable set of rules required to maintain a license, it is because the state has delegated lawmaking in the form of regulatory capacity to that organization. They can label it a code of ethics (they don't use "morals") but it is really a regulation with the compulsory power of the state behind it. For example, the California State Bar. It has a set of rules of professional conduct and if you breach them you can be investigated, prosecuted in the State Bar Court, and possibly lose your license. That isn't ethics, it is regulation.
__________________
Please visit my web site: www.americasgreatboxingcards.com
So... move out of your studio apartment! And try speaking to a real live woman, and GROW THE HELL UP! I mean, it's just baseball cards dammit, IT'S JUST BASEBALL CARDS!
10% off any BIN in my eBay store (user name: exhibitman) for N54 members buying direct from me through this site instead, just PM me.
Reply With Quote
  #168  
Old 01-15-2018, 09:54 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 13,496
Default

I don't know, Adam. Example. As we know, under the statute of frauds, I can't enforce a contract for the sale of goods over $500 (never mind the exceptions, irrelevant to the point) without a writing signed by the other party. So under the law, the other party can breach with impunity if he knows there is no such writing. But wouldn't you say it's still unethical to breach the contract, or at least that there's a substantial consensus that would say it is? Perhaps you would not.
__________________
Buy high, sell low.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 01-15-2018 at 09:55 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #169  
Old 01-16-2018, 07:23 AM
glynparson's Avatar
glynparson glynparson is offline
Glyn Parson
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Blandon PA
Posts: 1,727
Default My brother

My brother many years ago went through a period of heavy drug abuse and did something similar. I did not go after anyone but him, I never had to get the police involved my dad and grandfather forced him to make it good. I made him pay me back replacement value,which he did after a period of time. He had an inheritance coming so it made things a little easier.

Last edited by glynparson; 01-16-2018 at 07:24 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #170  
Old 01-16-2018, 08:20 AM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is online now
Scott Russell
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,067
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exhibitman View Post
They don't, at least not in the sense you are loosely using the terms. A voluntary organization can ask its members to adhere to certain standards but there is no requirement that a person join the organization or adhere to the standards it sets. If a professional organization has an enforceable set of rules required to maintain a license, it is because the state has delegated lawmaking in the form of regulatory capacity to that organization. They can label it a code of ethics (they don't use "morals") but it is really a regulation with the compulsory power of the state behind it. For example, the California State Bar. It has a set of rules of professional conduct and if you breach them you can be investigated, prosecuted in the State Bar Court, and possibly lose your license. That isn't ethics, it is regulation.
I am not loosely using any term, I am using the term the professions and organizations themselves use. A quick google search turns up dozens of examples. If you want to argue that if you have a Code of Ethics you are essentially turning them into regulations it might be debatable, but it's hardly like I'm making up the term.
__________________
Great experience buying from edjs and mybuddyinc. Check out my ebay store, weird, eclectic, accurate, and reasonable! http://stores.ebay.com/Aquarian-Sports-Cards Also check out http://www.birminghamauctioneers.com
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Metal Lunch Meat Helmet alanu Football Cards Forum 8 12-23-2010 03:32 PM
You have to eat your meat before dessert!! Leon Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 45 07-21-2010 10:03 PM
Network 54 Dinner – Thank You for Having Meat Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 2 08-03-2008 12:46 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:58 AM.


ebay GSB