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  #141  
Old 01-13-2018, 06:23 PM
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nolemmings nolemmings is offline
Todd Schultz
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That can be very complicated, Jay. Assuming the forum state follows the Restatement of Conflicts of Laws ( I do not know how many or which ones do), then here's a good place to start looking:

s 188. LAW GOVERNING IN ABSENCE OF EFFECTIVE CHOICE BY THE PARTIES

TEXT

(1) The rights and duties of the parties with respect to an issue in contract are determined by the local law of the state which, with respect to that issue, has the most significant relationship to the transaction and the parties under the principles stated in s 6.

(2) In the absence of an effective choice of law by the parties (see s 187), the contacts to be taken into account in applying the principles of s 6 to determine the law applicable to an issue include:

(a) the place of contracting,

(b) the place of negotiation of the contract,

(c) the place of performance,

(d) the location of the subject matter of the contract, and

(e) the domicil, residence, nationality, place of incorporation and place of business of the parties.

These contacts are to be evaluated according to their relative importance with respect to the particular issue.

(3) If the place of negotiating the contract and the place of performance are in the same state, the local law of this state will usually be applied, except as otherwise provided in ss 189-199 and 203.

In many ways this may be incomplete advice, and an attorney should be consulted in one of the states with a connection to the transaction. Parties should also take heed that, if a state's law would allow you to recover your attorney's fees when you are successful, it very likely will allow your opponent to recover his fees if he is successful. IOW, be careful what you wish for.
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  #142  
Old 01-13-2018, 06:23 PM
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rainier2004 rainier2004 is offline
Steven
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Yeah, this whole thing sucks.

If you have never been close to someone hooked to drugs the consider yourself lucky. Its worse than you can image as it rips at you, your family and a bunch of various parts of your life you cannot imagine. Can you imagine being "thankful" they're in jail b/c at least they wont wind up dead that night?

Second, Mike is just one the finest people I know. He values integrity and friendships over "stuff" and it sucks that he wound up in this as well.

For that matter it sucks for everyone in this as none had intentions to defraud to "screw" anyone over when conducting the original deals.

I have no answers, just that I'm sorry for everyone involved and the brother needs to be locked up as he has probably done even more damage since this incident and I'm sure it wasn't his first.

Mike - Good luck with the personal situation, just hang in there. Use your cards as an escape as I now you do. Take strength my friend...
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  #143  
Old 01-13-2018, 06:38 PM
griffon512 griffon512 is offline
James
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Default The start of a solution -- one under our control

i made what i think was a good sale at the westchester show today. maybe karma had a part to play, maybe it didn't. in the chance it did, i'd like to repay or pay forward some portion of it in what i think is a worthy pursuit. mike, it sounds like you've had a shit time of it recently and it is undeserved given the positive interactions people have had with you.

in that context mike i'd like to send you $75 as a small fraction of the restitution you ultimately deserve of $3,700 plus the additional money you spent acquiring the cards to give back to zach. an honorable act deserves an honorable response...there's not enough instances of this happening and this time i can have some impact on the outcome. hopefully others will follow.

mike, please let me know what paypal address to send the money to and i will send it tonight. if you don't have paypal, please list your street address and i will send you a check. tim, if mike isn't like to read the remainder of this thread please pass along his contact info if you feel it appropriate.

regards, james

Last edited by griffon512; 01-13-2018 at 06:43 PM.
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  #144  
Old 01-13-2018, 07:00 PM
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rainier2004 rainier2004 is offline
Steven
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griffon512 View Post
i made what i think was a good sale at the westchester show today. maybe karma had a part to play, maybe it didn't. in the chance it did, i'd like to repay or pay forward some portion of it in what i think is a worthy pursuit. mike, it sounds like you've had a shit time of it recently and it is undeserved given the positive interactions people have had with you.

in that context mike i'd like to send you $75 as a small fraction of the restitution you ultimately deserve of $3,700 plus the additional money you spent acquiring the cards to give back to zach. an honorable act deserves an honorable response...there's not enough instances of this happening and this time i can have some impact on the outcome. hopefully others will follow.

mike, please let me know what paypal address to send the money to and i will send it tonight. if you don't have paypal, please list your street address and i will send you a check. tim, if mike isn't like to read the remainder of this thread please pass along his contact info if you feel it appropriate.

regards, james
Awesome gesture...very nice bud. I'm not sure Mike would take it, but its an awesome gesture James.
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  #145  
Old 01-13-2018, 07:04 PM
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Peter Spaeth
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Not to fault James in any way but Chris should be making the first move here, then we can see where things end up. I would give him some time first.
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  #146  
Old 01-13-2018, 07:05 PM
griffon512 griffon512 is offline
James
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my concern is he won't take it from myself and potentially others. i hope it's not seen as an act of charity. it isn't. it's an attempt to remediate a problem when at least a partial solution is readily available, and ultimately would make me feel better for pursuing it.
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  #147  
Old 01-13-2018, 07:20 PM
griffon512 griffon512 is offline
James
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Not to fault James in any way but Chris should be making the first move here, then we can see where things end up. I would give him some time first.
peter, i understand where you are coming from but i disagree on chris making the first move. chris had plenty of opportunity to make the first move. he didn't. i'm not critical of chris' decision. this is a legal clusterfuck due to the attorney cost vs. potential remediation dollar amount issue, along with how time consuming it would be to pursue a legal remedy. everyone down the chain in this transaction is worse off currently in some form -- whether it be business reputation or financially -- but it is likely that none of these people had malicious intent.

this is an ideal situation where a third party (or parties if others choose to chip in) can step in and pursue an ethical remedy where a legal remedy likely falls short.

if out of pressure from this thread chris revisits the idea of paying for some of mike's cost my actions do not preclude him from doing so, but i do not think that chris should feel that obligation on ethical grounds.

Last edited by griffon512; 01-13-2018 at 07:27 PM.
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  #148  
Old 01-13-2018, 07:28 PM
timn1 timn1 is offline
Tim Newcomb
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Default agree w Peter...

As mentioned, Mike currently has his hands full with family stuff, plus he was never trying to make this a big public stink, so he may not post much more on it anytime soon. Though he can always correct me, I'm fairly sure he is not interested in suing anyone in any of the 50 states. He knows the amount involved would not be worth the hassles. However, I don't agree with Jeff's suggestion about how the issue is too trivial to be worth having this discussion. Principle is involved.

Here we have people who don't even know Mike offering to defray some of his loss, but the two others directly involved, Chris and Zach, who benefitted from the events and then let Mike do all the dirty work and absorb all the financial loss for eighteen months, should step up and be honorable men about this, and offer to do something.

For those offering money, which is extremely kind of them, I will let Mike tell you whether he wants to accept it. But as his closest friend, I am certain that the lost money has upset him less than the disappointment of seeing two people he also considered hobby friends, so completely fail to hold up their obligation to deal fairly with him when all he wanted was to make a bad situation better.

Tim


Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Not to fault James in any way but Chris should be making the first move here, then we can see where things end up. I would give him some time first.

Last edited by timn1; 01-13-2018 at 07:30 PM. Reason: added a missing word
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  #149  
Old 01-13-2018, 07:29 PM
timn1 timn1 is offline
Tim Newcomb
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Default can't understand this

James, it really is kind of you to offer money, but I can't fathom why you would think that Chris should not feel any obligation to do anything about this ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffon512 View Post
peter, i understand where you are coming from but i disagree on chris making the first move. chris had plenty of opportunity to make the first move. he didn't. i'm not critical of chris' decision. this is a legal clusterfuck due to the attorney cost vs. potential remediation dollar amount issue, along with how time consuming it would be to pursue a legal remedy. everyone down the chain in this transaction is worse off currently in some form -- whether it be business reputation or financially -- but it is likely that none of these people had malicious intent.

this is an ideal situation where a third party (or parties if others choose to chip in) can step in and pursue an ethical remedy where a legal remedy likely falls short.

if out of pressure from this thread chris revisits the idea of paying for some of mike's cost my actions do not preclude him from doing so, but i do not think that chris should feel that obligation on ethical grounds.
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  #150  
Old 01-13-2018, 08:11 PM
griffon512 griffon512 is offline
James
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timn1 View Post
James, it really is kind of you to offer money, but I can't fathom why you would think that Chris should not feel any obligation to do anything about this ???
tim, i'm basing that statement on ethical (not legal) grounds on the following:

1. i'm making the assumption based on what was written in this thread that chris did not know the cards were stolen. obviously chris had no control over what zach's brother did.

2. if he did not know the cards were stolen, he did nothing wrong in the act of purchasing and selling the cards.

3. the cost of anyone down the chain -- none of whom have culpability in the theft -- pursuing legal action against those who do not refund their purchase price is greater in money/time than what they stand to gain from a positive legal outcome (best case scenario of breaking even i presume). this disincentivizes them from pursuing legal action. this is a good example, in my opinion, of the legal system not providing an attractive alternative. as mike stated above, after talking to counsel he made the decision that it would have been potentially cost and time prohibitive for him to legally pursue reimbursement from chris. chris would have been in the same situation if he did reimburse mike, and so forth. ultimately the thief is likely not in a position to make monetary restitution, which would have been the ideal remedy of the legal system.

4. given the above, a third party providing partial or full restitution -- i would like to start if mike is open to it -- seems like a good alternative.

i don't want to get into a long debate on the ethics of this, who is to blame, etc. i stated my opinion and i recognize that reasonable people will disagree on a fair ethical outcome.

i'd rather start the action of making it better for mike, and in turn, me. i would feel better if mike would accept my $75. maybe others will follow. improving mike's life after a tough spell is worth more to me overall than the cost of $75. it starts to reciprocate something honorable that he did.

Last edited by griffon512; 01-13-2018 at 08:45 PM.
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