Should cards be cleaned or left alone

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Posted By: 1Jeff

Hello,
I am new to this board and would like to thank Ben for introducing me to it.It has been nice to read the posts and pick up information and I would like to thank everyone for that.I have been collecting cards in one way or another for most of my life.I started collecting only vintage baseball cards over a year and a half ago.It had been a rough ride in the begining trying to teach myself the ropes.I had bought some reprint Cracker Jack cards and after buying some from another seller realized I had a problem with one of them because they were different.After that I began to wonder about all of the cards I had bought.So I sent them all to be graded,anyway this brings me to my question.One of my first purchases was a really nice T-206 Christy Mathewson with the dark cap,which I thought was one of my higher grade cards.The only problem this card has is a tiny G lightly written on the white border in the bottom left corner(of course the seller never said this in his auction listing and I didnt know better).My question is should pencil marks be left alone or can can they be removed without damaging the card.I dont want to sell this card because it is very nice but I would like to know for the future.Thank you for any help.
Jeff

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Posted By: jay behrens

If you want to remove this mark and have no experience doing this this, the best thing to do is practice on some lower grade cards before you try it on a card you value. The eraser to use for this is to go to find an architect's eraser. This is an eraser used by architect for erasing marks on blue prints. It sort of feels like a cross between plastic and rubber. It does not rquire much pressure to remove the pencil mark and will not cause scuffing to the paper surface if used gently. Make sure you get an architect's eraser becuase any other type of eraser is goig to suff and/or tear the paper.

Hope this helps.

Jay

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Posted By: leon

Welcome to the board. My opinion on pencil marks, and there will be several different ones, is that I have left them. Most of the times they are on the back, in not too conspicuous places, so they don't detract too much. If they are very light you could try one of the "art" erasers that folks have told me about. If the pencil mark made an indention I believe a grading company will ding you for the mark regardless if it is there or not. If you can erase it with no trace of it then you have enhanced the card by 1-2 grades. Good luck on your collecting....and I hope you don't become addicted like some of us best regards

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Posted By: Jeff

Leon
If the pencil were to leave an indentation on the card I am not sure how you would be able to tell.I can only guess that you would have to look at it thru a magnifing glass.Is this the only way or is there other ways.Yes I am addicted,but I thought every sane person was.Thanks

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Posted By: leon

I have several cards that have had pencil markings erased, you can not see WITHOUT a magnifying glass- as you said, and were downgraded in grade(s) OR were classifed "MK"....which is a serious detractor in grading....My personal opnion is that an almost undetectable indention should not ding a card too much....but I guess that's not how SGC and PSA see it....so your answer about the magnifying glass is correct....regards all (BTW, I think it was Jay Or Pete that told me about the architect's eraser which I called an "art" eraser)

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Posted By: Hankron

Even if is not visiable to the naked eye and under magnifying glass, erasure marks and old pencil marks can usually be identified in other ways. This post should not be construed as a value judgement on such alterations-- I'm merely pointing out that the collector shouldn't deceive himself into that they can be completely undetectable.

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Posted By: Hankron

I am curious as to how the top professional graders approach this issue eye view inviable but infrared apparent pencil marks. It is certainly understandable that they would use advanced techniques to try and identify alterations on T206 Magie's and 'Snodgrass variations (Whether they do or not, is another question). It would seem that the removal of a stray pencil mark or a spec of album residue would, if anything, be an issue of condition grade. It can be reasonably be argued that a pencil mark or a piece of album paper is not a part of the original card, and it's removal itself is not an alteration of the card. On the other hand, it can be reasonably argued that a gum stain on a Topps or Bowman or a greese stain on a Wilson's Weiners card is, for better or for worse, an integral part of the card, just as are print dots or bad registration.

Such alterations, if detectable, are relevant, at least financially. All other qualities even, each of us would pay less for a Mint card that we know had a pencil mark removed or gum stain 'erasued' even if we cannot see the alteration.

In the end, I'm sure that PSA, SGC and Beckett are not running 1980 Topps Rickey Hendersons or T206 Christy Mathewsons through a gambit of scientific tests to see if anyone has surgecly removed a 3mm pencil mark. They're most likely looking for obvious naked eye signs, like discoloration or loss of gloss.



One

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

However, I have a 1935 Goudey puzzle card of Ruth., McManus, etc., number 4J (the rare one), in g-vg condition. On the back, someone, pushing down hard on the penci, wrote "1934." I erased it, and cannot see the pencil marks anymore, but the indentation is still there.

This must have been one of the first semi-vintage cards I ever bought. For one thing, I didn't know it was special (4J), and for another it's in pretty bad shape. The corners are deeply rounded, and the sidea are worn.

It has its uses, though. Mark Macrae was looking through my cards on day, and came to that one, and remarked it must be worth at least $300. "Hey, lend me $300 on it?" I said (there was a Lipset auction coming up). I paid him back fairly promptly, and sometime in the next year, i asked again. At first, I always sent the card, and he opened it and put it away. But the last time, he sent it back in the same package I sent it to him. Now, I just ask him to lend me $300.

It was my lending card. And, since it's my birth year, I have eight other Goudey puzzle cards.

There are often little marks on the back of T202s, since it's an unnumbered but popular set. I just leave them alone; I guess i sort of feel they're part of the card's history. But if I WANTED to get rid of a mark, I'd feel pretty squirmy that some grading company was going to write "MK" on it, when i couldn't see one myself.

The hysteria among grading houses about blank-backed 19th century cards drives me WILD. I'm afraid an otherwise great Old Judge with a small mark on the back will sell for almost nothing--even if I don't grade it. And my Zeenut Fred McMullen that Buck Barker wrote all over the back of, and I think ought to be worth a premium because of that, I'm afraid it will be heavily discounted.

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

...and ask his opinion. Brian restores paintings and probably knows of an eraser type, or perhaps a solution (I'm just guessing here) that might work.

In any event, he will know your answer. Since this is a most valuable Christy Mathewson card, deserving of only the most careful and expert care, Brian (or some other professional) may even be willing to collect a fee to do it for you, to make sure it is done expertly -- sometimes, this really is preferred rather than taking a novice approach to a valuable card.

Brian posts here all the time, and his e-address should be readily available. He's usually quite helpful and really knows his stuff.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I believe in removal of foreign matter from cards provided it can be done in a manner that does not harm the card either in the short term or over the long haul. There are two types of removal, chemical and mechanical. You are talking about mechanical. I have had good success with an Artgum eraser (this is an eraser used on paper artwork. The rubber crumbles without taking the paper with it, unlike a pencil eraser, which tears off layers of paper to do its work). The architect's eraser mentioned elsewhere is called a vellum eraser. Same principle. I prefer the Artgum for cards.

Here's how to do it:

First, check the card under a light by moving it around until you see a shine on the area. If the pencil mark has indented into the paper, you will be able to see it. If so, you might as well quit because the card will never grade better than vg unless you engage in some rather sophisticated additional doctoring, which I will not elaborate on here.

Assuming the pencil hasn't gouged into the paper, you are ready to erase. Regardless of which eraser you use, place the card on a clean, dry, flat surface (a pane of glass or piece of plexiglas is the best, but a laminate counter or table top works too) and have a lot of light on it, so you can really see what you are doing. I prefer placing a card sleeve beneath the card also. The key is to work VERY GENTLY on the item, with patience. The more pressure you exert on the card, the more likely you are to damage it. If there is not solid progress almost immediately, STOP. Some pencil marks just do not erase (I have a T229 Pet Cigs card like this) and you will just kill the card by trying.

I have had several cards with erasures graded by SGC. If the mark leaves any trace of indentation or outline or dirt, they will find it and ding you. If the pencil marks erase cleanly with no indentations, they will grade the card as though it never existed (I've got an 88 nm-mt Exhibit Salutations Ted Williams to prove it).

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Posted By: ockday

I bought a T205 Moran "stray line " on Ebay recently that had a small amount of pencil writing on the back.
I gently used a soft eraser by Sanford called Design kneaded rubber and the mark came off without damaging the back. I just got the card back from PSA with a PSA 3 grade (looked like a 4 to me but that's another story)and no qualifier.