1919 Reds Pennant

[Shoeless Moe]

Anyone out there win this just now?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...torefresh=true

$3500 seems insane, but I'm not a high roller so I live in a different world. The story of it the description doesn't jive, so I hope they didn't buy it on that.

[3-2-count]

I saw it and had interest due to the history of the Black Sox scandal, but not at that price. Winning amount went for double what I thought it would.
Unique piece none the less. Congrat's to the winner.

Edited to add a link where the item was being discussed. LINK

[perezfan]

MUCH higher than I thought it would go as well...

I get the lore and history behind it, but (to me) it just wasn't very attractive. I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder...

[GoldenAge50s]

I think part of the allure of "folk art" is the innocent crudeness of an amateur creator & the "one-of-a-kind" aspect of owning it.

[perezfan]

Here's a very similar Babe Ruth Pennant (purportedly from 1928) that's been running on ebay forever. It looks to be made by the same people/same company that did the 1919 Reds Pennant.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Babe-Rut...item3ef8632a16

Same material, same stenciling, same stars, same style. Is it conceivable that the same people were making these pennants over a 9 year span? These look rather cheap and even home-made, and I am a bit suspicious about the "epic" subject matter for both.

Babe Ruth and the 1919 Reds are two pretty "heavy" subjects.... Coincidence? You don't ever encounter this style of pennant, and two have now popped up on ebay. Between REA, Hunts. Lelands, Mastro, Heritage and SCP... you'd think that just one other legit example would have surfaced over the years (especially if the people making these were in business for over a decade).

Just this week, we've had a misrepresented 1915 Negro League Pennant, 2 completely bogus Tigers "Franken-pennants" and now these. So I'm a bit suspicious as to the origins. The 1928 Ruth and 1919 Reds could be real/could be fantasy.... they do appear old. Would love to hear other peoples' thoughts on the matter.

[baseballart]

Mark

I have no expertise in pennants (and in little else, for that matter). One point on the pennant is that the auctioneer was also offering a beat up copy of Ellard's Baseball in Cincinnati, 1908. This probably doesn't amount to much, but could be an indication they came from a collection of that era (conversely, I guess they could have come from someone who purchased both in 1980).

Edited to add: looking at that Babe Ruth pennant would certainly give me pause before I bid on the Reds one.

Max

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by baseballart

Mark

I have no expertise in pennants (and in little else, for that matter). One point on the pennant is that the auctioneer was also offering a beat up copy of Ellard's Baseball in Cincinnati, 1908. This probably doesn't amount to much, but could be an indication they came from a collection of that era (conversely, I guess they could have come from someone who purchased both in 1980).

Edited to add: looking at that Babe Ruth pennant would certainly give me pause before I bid on the Reds one.

Max

That is a positive sign... but not iron-clad evidence of authenticity, as you say. Could just be consigned from a Reds collector who bought the pennant on faith...

If the 1919 Reds Pennant is good, then someone should jump on that Ruth Pennant (a real bargain by comparison!)

[murphusa]

the Yankees did not have numbers on their 1928 Uniforms

[GoldenAge50s]

Good catch Murph, and I think the Ruth pennant is not even close to the Cincy pennant in finished quality, however crude that the Cincy is.

[rhettyeakley]

They both look terrible and artificial to me. It looks like the stencilling was done yesterday and the wear is a little over the top. Red flags all over the place. I hope nobody here paid too much for that Reds pennant.
-Rhett

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by GoldenAge50s

Good catch Murph, and I think the Ruth pennant is not even close to the Cincy pennant in finished quality, however crude that the Cincy is.

Regarding the Ruth and the 1919 Reds Pennants... Look closer...

The overall style of the pennants, the shape of both (stubby- not elongated), the thin felt, the stenciled font style (every letter matches up), the stars, and even the red felt strip on the left side are all the same. When have you ever seen other pennants like this with identical font and stenciled stars, combined with a poorly applied central image (that is neither stenciled or screened on like the remainder of the pennant).

If you propped up the Ruth Pennant (at a more direct angle to the camera), the shape would be identical to the 1919 Reds. It is laying flatter in the photo, thus skewing the shape a bit. Other known pennants of the era are more elongated than these matching examples. Look at the stenciled lettering. The "H" is crossed 3/4 towards the top on both examples. The "R"s are identical. So are the "N"s and the "A"s and the "E"s... all identical in style.

Now that Murphusa has exposed the 1928 Ruth as being a fake/fantasy piece (based on the "3" on his back)... I do not envy the guy who spent over $3K on the 1919 Reds Pennant. I would be extremely nervous, as these two pennants are far too similar not to be related.

And what are the odds that both would pop up on ebay around the same time? In the past 20 years, why have no others (of this distinct style) ever been featured in ANY of the major Catalogue Auctions? Way too coincidental for my taste...

If the winning bidder of the Reds Pennant is reading this, you might want to file a dispute before it's too late. Ebay has an excellent new Buyer Protection Program that can effectively protect you.

Hope this is helpful.

[ctownboy]

Honestly, how HARD is it to just sew something half assed, put some ink stamps on it and let it sit in the sun and fade for a while?

Both my Grand Mother and my Mother can sew and I think they could replicate these pieces fairly easily. Just find some old material, go to an art store and buy some ink stamps, assemble quickly, set in sun for a couple of weeks and, voila, instant "folk art".

If I knew they wouldn't be racked with guilt for doing so, I might suggest they try this and see how much they could supplement their monthly income.....

David

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

Honestly, how HARD is it to just sew something half assed, put some ink stamps on it and let it sit in the sun and fade for a while?

Both my Grand Mother and my Mother can sew and I think they could replicate these pieces fairly easily. Just find some old material, go to an art store and buy some ink stamps, assemble quickly, set in sun for a couple of weeks and, voila, instant "folk art".

If I knew they wouldn't be racked with guilt for doing so, I might suggest they try this and see how much they could supplement their monthly income.....

David

Completely agree... too bad some people don't feel that type of guilt, or share those morals. Here's an authentic example that cannot so easily be replicated by "Grandma"...

[barrysloate]

I don't like the looks of it either- I think it's fake- but I did like Rhett's use of the term "red flags all over on this one." Cincinnati Reds flags?

[oriolesbb6]

Might as well been accompanied by an email from a former prince of Nigeria or cancer stricken Nun. There is a alot of old fabric out there, old print types, felt, ink, etc. Folk art is mass produced and sold as antique quite often. Beware of anyone who states they are an Ebay loyalist..........

[barrysloate]

Another thing that concerns me is a seller who uses the term "so just keep your panties on" in his description. That's not good.

[sayhey24]

Here's one more of that same style -- this one dated much later -- 1958 Negro Leagues. Saw this at the National -- didn't buy it because something didn't seem right.

Greg

baseballbasement.com

[GrayGhost]

Interesting topic. I think they are all fakes, and not of the period at all. People just need to be so careful.

[perezfan]

That 1958 Negro League Pennant really clinches it... thanks for posting, Greg.

Same stars, same stenciled font, same material, same color combination, same red strip on the left side. Same idea, taking epic subject matter and putting it on a generic stenciled pennant. What are the odds that these people were making the same style of pennant from 1919 through 1958 (or even longer, on the probability that others start popping up).

Beyond the realm of possibility, and all of these are fantasy pieces. In other words... fake!

[slidekellyslide]

I think that "honest old poop" is going to be getting a "pennant" back. A 40 year stretch between three folk art like pennants using the same materials, style and font? They're all fake.

[gratefuldog3]

Wow, All I can say is where the hell were you guys before the auction ended? I haven't even opened the package yet. I'm still working. I want you to know that I honestly believe the seller is an honest person who has made a large mistake. I too made a bad call... I guess?? If it was as advertised, I would have paid more. What can I say? F@*^@CK me!! I'm making a phone call as soon as I get home. What a disappointment...Scott

[GoldenAge50s]

I read all your posts and have great respect for your knowledge of pennants. You went into a lot more depth than I did to arrive at your conclusions.

2 questions:

(1) The size of the letters on the Cincy pennant look a bit smaller than on Ruth & the Negroe Lg--Are they?

(2) Is it possible, or likely, that the Cincy is authentic period & the other 2 are just fake copycats? The Seller said he had heard of just one other like the Cincy.

In fairness to the Seller, he goes out of his way to assure Buyers they can return anything for 7 days w/out a problem & has an exemplary selling record, so if it is bogus I'm sure he has no idea..

[khkco4bls]

now seeing the 58 pennant there is no doubt there fakes. to have a similar item spanning 38 years later i wouldnt touch that pennant. sorry scott.

[BrockJacob]

And there's more...
http://feb09.hugginsandscott.com/cgi...l?itemid=10985

[slidekellyslide]

Hmmm..okay, now if we could get some cooperation from the folks who sold these and find out where they obtained them we might find the common link.

edited to add: it's also now a bit harder to swallow that garage sale story from the ebay seller.

[baseballart]

Originally Posted by baseballart

Mark

I have no expertise in pennants (and in little else, for that matter). One point on the pennant is that the auctioneer was also offering a beat up copy of Ellard's Baseball in Cincinnati, 1908. This probably doesn't amount to much, but could be an indication they came from a collection of that era (conversely, I guess they could have come from someone who purchased both in 1980).

Edited to add: looking at that Babe Ruth pennant would certainly give me pause before I bid on the Reds one.

Max

Well, at least the seller's 1908 Baseball in Cincinnati was real.

Pretty frightening with these pennants. When viewed together, it's pretty clear they are not vintage.

I just hope people stay away from artificially aged reproductions of baseball books

[gratefuldog3]

Me again, I just got home from a perfect day of hell at work to find three missed calls from the seller. As I was listening to my messages, he called again. He has read the thread and is as concerned as I am. Being a stand up guy he has already refunded my Paypal account, and wants me to open the package and take a peek. He's giving me the time I need to make a logical decision.Really, what else could I ask for? It would be great if all the bad talk about this guy would stop. He has been nothing but reasonable from the beginning. He even refused to end the auction early! I tried and I know one of you who have posted here offered him 1800.00 to do the same. Which I'm confused by, for obvious reasons. I do appreciate this thread. It's just a shame it didn't start until after I dropped the bomb. Oh well, no harm done. In review, seller did the right thing. I'm glad that for once my hunch in a person was correct.

[slidekellyslide]

That's great that the guy refunded right away...still it's very hard to understand this garage sale story unless the guy at the garage sale was selling it for higher than garage sale prices and he was the one pulling the scam. I still think this should be followed up...you have two on ebay from different sellers, one at the National and one in a Huggins and Scott auction last year, yet all of them were likely made by the same person.

edited to add: I am not the person posting on this thread that tried to get the auction ended early...just in case anyone was wondering. My first view of the pennant was when the auction was posted in this thread.

[ctownboy]

Hello,

I am NOT an expert in pennants but I do know something about sewing since both my Mother and Grand Mother are proficient at it. I also know a little something about home made art since both my Mother and Step-Father have dabbled in it.

I looked at the 1919 Cincinnati pennant and automatically thought it was fake because of the poor workmanship of the sewing. My Grand Mother was born in 1920 and she has told me many times that people back then HAD to knew how to sew, not because it was something fun just to sit around and do but because it was a NECESSITY. Thus, they had to KNOW what they were doing AND they took pride in their work.

If the story of two women sitting outside a ball park sewing that pennant is true then they weren't very good at sewing and they didn't take pride in their work. Considering it was supposedly made in 1919 and was also supposedly made to be sold, then the story, to me, does NOT add up. Why? Because people back then would have looked at the shoddy workmanship, laughed and said they could do better (which they probably could have).

As far as the lettering and the stars go, they look like they were made by stamps you can buy at an art supply store. Just take an ink pad, wet the stamp on it and then press down on the cloth.

Again, to me, not something that is really that hard to replicate unlike the other 1919 Cincinnati pennant another member has posted.

It would be nice if the pennants were old and real but I wouldn't spend much money on them just because I think they would be too easy to make.

Just my two cents,

David.

[murphusa]

Originally Posted by sayhey24

Here's one more of that same style -- this one dated much later -- 1958 Negro Leagues. Saw this at the National -- didn't buy it because something didn't seem right.

Greg

baseballbasement.com

When looking at it the first thing you do is look at what you see.

1958 Negro League, was the league still in business, no
25 times champions, no

Babe Ruth, picture with number in 1928, no

most people who forge things or make up things don't follow too close to the details

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by gratefuldog3

Me again, I just got home from a perfect day of hell at work to find three missed calls from the seller. As I was listening to my messages, he called again. He has read the thread and is as concerned as I am. Being a stand up guy he has already refunded my Paypal account, and wants me to open the package and take a peek. He's giving me the time I need to make a logical decision.Really, what else could I ask for? It would be great if all the bad talk about this guy would stop. He has been nothing but reasonable from the beginning. He even refused to end the auction early! I tried and I know one of you who have posted here offered him 1800.00 to do the same. Which I'm confused by, for obvious reasons. I do appreciate this thread. It's just a shame it didn't start until after I dropped the bomb. Oh well, no harm done. In review, seller did the right thing. I'm glad that for once my hunch in a person was correct.

I never posted anything bad specifically about the seller... just the item! I think he is probably a stand-up guy who was guilty only of being a trusting soul. He likely had no reason (or the necessary expertise) not to believe the person from which he acquired the pennant. The only thing he is guilty of is a bit of naivety and perhaps negligence (given the supposed high-ticket item he was selling). I wish every seller would go to the detail he did, regarding his description. The problem is not so much the seller, as it is the people feeding this deceiving material into the marketplace. It's kind of analogous to the illegal drug trade...

I am sorry we couldn't get you the necessary insight sooner, and draw these conclusions before the action closed. I could never see the photos on ebay (just red X's appeared) and a friend (Mike H.) had to email me the photo personally. So I saw it late in the game. If you look at my first post within this thread, you will see that I was just a bit leary at the start, and became convinced of its un-authenticity as the evidence mounted. Seeing the span between 1927 and 1958 really clinches the fact that these were made to commemorate "monumental" subject matter (way after the fact).

There is no way that these similarities (felt, materials, stenciling, font, stars, shape, red strip, etc.) would all be identical over a 31 year stretch. This isn't shocking... this has been going on with ad signs, broadsides, fans, and even card reprints for a long time (Max - I think you are the safest of us all, with vintage books!)

Anyway, I am sorry this info came out later than ideal, but at least I believe we helped you in the end. It is great that this seller has issued the PayPal credit so promptly. On a wider scope, I hope we've enlightened other collectors, so perhaps fewer people will be duped in the future. To me, that's what this forum is all about. I know that many people here have helped me on numerous occasions (and that's what makes this such a great resource!)

Thanks,
Mark

[baseballart]

"(Max - I think you are the safest of us all, with vintage books!)"

Even in books, there are issues, specifically with reproduction dust jackets. They are normally very easy to tell, but for some expensive books, I have heard of rogues who have used these with the intent to deceive.

Max

(Now if there were more of us interested in baseball books, other than me, Barry, Tom, Mike D. and ....anyone else? anyone???)

[barrysloate]

It's a dying art, Max.

[gratefuldog3]

I have to tell you, it looks really damn good. I can't believe someone would go through so much trouble to come up with this. If you put a price on time, who ever did this, almost earned the three grand. I wish you could all hold this in your hands, and see for yourselves. It really looks legit. If it wasn't for your posts,I would have never questioned it. So, thank you, and I know the seller thanks you too. Scott

[GoldenAge50s]

I just want to repeat a question from Post #22 that got lost in the shuffle of Scott coming forward as the Buyer.

Is it possible that the Cincy pennant is an authentic period creation & the Ruth & Negroe Lg of later vintage are just fake copycats?

The Sellers extensive close-up photos & Scott's reaction above make this more interesting to know your thoughts Mark, and others as well.

[mcgwirecom]

In the last pennant, the 1927 Yankees with the Ruth photo, I believe that photo is from the tour of Japan which I believe happened later than 1927.

[gratefuldog3]

What blows me away is the reverse of the piece. You can see what looks like natural bleeding through of the ink. That would take a hell of a long time to have a " stamp " bleed through a canvas type material. Also, the overall toning of the piece is remarkable. I really don't know what the hell to think. I was psyched.. If any of you guys live in the Boston area and you'd like to see the pennant, give me an e-mail and we'll try to hook up. I have until Monday to make my decision, and before anyone thinks anything derogatory, that was the date I gave the seller. He gave me a few weeks. I don't think I should take that long in fairness to him. Really is hard to conceive anyone would create this to deceive.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by GoldenAge50s

I just want to repeat a question from Post #22 that got lost in the shuffle of Scott coming forward as the Buyer.

Is it possible that the Cincy pennant is an authentic period creation & the Ruth & Negroe Lg of later vintage are just fake copycats?

The Sellers extensive close-up photos & Scott's reaction above make this more interesting to know your thoughts Mark, and others as well.

It's possible I suppose, albeit a longshot. If the 1919 Cincy Pennant was the sole original, and the others are all more recent copycat/fantasy pieces... why would they choose that obscure style as their "template"? And how would they have access to the same exact felt, same stenciling, etc. 30+ years later?

A "stretch" theory (just speculating here...) Maybe these were all made up in the late '50s/early '60s to commemorate great players/teams of Baseball's History. They chose some awfully good subjects... 1919 Reds, Negro Leagues, 2 different Ruths, etc. This would explain why the pennant looks vintage to Gratefuldog, and would also explain the vast array of "epic" subject matter.

The materials do look old, but the historic details/timing pointed out in this thread preclude them from being original to the time period. So maybe they're somewhat vintage 1950s commemoratives, rather than items created specifically to deceive.

It's an interesting theory, but I still tend to believe they are fantasy pieces created for the sole purpose of making money in a manipulative manner.

[baseballart]

I don't know if you're a member of the 1919 Black sox group on yahoo, but I can post a link to that group as well as to the SABR-L group to see if anyone not on net54 has seen an original of the 1919.

Max

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by gratefuldog3

Really is hard to conceive anyone would create this to deceive.

This has been a really interesting thread, and I hope whatever you decide works out for you. But I don't understand your statement above. The pennant sold for $3,000-plus. Doesn't that seem to be incentive for fraud? And I'm not suggesting the seller committed fraud or even knows that the pennant is a fake. But you've got to concede that when a crook sees an item that has about $10 in raw materials sell for this kind of money, it's easy to see how he'd conceive the idea to deceive.

Good luck with this.

[gratefuldog3]

"Conceive the idea to deceive" If that's true, I'm disgusted. Everyone needs to see this.....I'm so confused......It really looks the part.

[GoldenAge50s]

One other thing to consider is that 4 other bidders besides Gratefuldog bid over $550 for that pennant and judging by their other items bid on seemed to be possibly knowledgeable collectors of pennants & vintage baseball.

I'm positive the Seller wasn't expecting anything near the high bids it generated.

No doubt I'm convinced the last 3 are more recent poor copycats, but I still have this gut feeling the Cincy pennant has merit, even more so considering what Gratefuldog has said upon inspection.

I wish the real truth could be known.

[perezfan]

Well, believe what you like...

The overwhelming evidence points to these all being made at the same point in time. The style, workmanship and materials are all virtually identical. If you put all four together in a group, I don't think many people would single out the Reds Pennant as the higher quality original.

[william_9]

I don't know enough about the subject matter to feel strongly one way or the other, but here are a couple of thoughts.....

For it being genuine folk art - it looks old and it's crude. It's very likely not a commercial product. Based on other known examples, the artist clearly had an interest in the subject and we can now see that there are other pieces to the puzzle. I'm wondering if all of these pieces may have once been sewn together to form something larger like a blanket or quilt? The technique looks naive and child like, as if it was made from scrap material for personal enjoyment. Also, the stitch style would suggest that it was tacked down to temporarily hold it's shape before a final sew on a machine. That's significant if were intended to be part of a larger piece.

For it being fake - in two words, bleed through. The dirty surface is somewhat expected but it looks overly dirty. The fact that ink bleeds through to the back suggests to me that it has taken a bath at some point, and not to get cleaned. Dirty + water damage always makes me suspect that something is up.

A simple test that may tell you something, or nothing, is to slightly trim some of the fray from the canvas and the felt and the thread. If it burns clean, then it's likely all natural fiber, and thus, likely old. If it burns and melts, it's newer. The odds of it containing synthetic fibers in the 1920's, I would think, be slim to none. The canvas and thread would be cotton and the felt would be wool. Of course, it could be made in the 1990's from salvaged materials from the 1920's. Who's to say for sure?

[rhettyeakley]

Regardless of whether it was a well done fake or not it doesn't change the fact that it is still fake. I don't doubt that you have vintage sack-cloth (or something like that) that these were made on, but the thing that looks really bogus to me is the actual stencilling of the letters and stars. The letters and stars look "worn" because there are portions of each letter that aren't as dark as the rest BUT it is not honest wear to ink that was applied to the surface 90 years ago. If you look at the letters most of the "wear" is on the inner portion or "middle of each letter (or star) which is just WAY too uniform of a wear pattern. In real life there would be areas of the pennant that exhibited more wear than others NOT areas of wear to each and every letter and star uniformly across the entire piece. Looks like way too much effort was put in to make the "antiqued" look for it to be honest wear. As soon as I saw the piece and took a step or two back it was painfully obvious this was done for one of two reasons...1.) to deceive, or 2.) to make a cool "period looking" piece that would display nicely (in other words a modern "craft".) Bottomline it just doesn't "look right", the other pennants are just icing on the cake. Get your money back and never look back!

PS--Barry thanks for noticing my "red flag" comment above, I couldn't help myself!

[sporteq]

WOW...some one got RIPPED OFF... I believe 100% it's a fake!! Nothing about the pennant looks vintage. Stay away from this type/style of pennant!!!

Have fun,
aL

[mjkm90]

Don't be pulled in by the fact that experienced baseball collectors or even pennant collectors bid on this piece.

Many vintage baseball collectors have specialties as you know. A person may be an advanced collector of cards, photos, or bats, but know beans about pennants, gloves, and jerseys. Unless they handle and study a particular niche over time, mistakes can be made. Just think about how many Black Sox collectors there are who simply search for anything 1919 Reds and Sox. Any of them would want this piece and 90% may not have a single pennant in thier collection.

Regarding this pennant specifically...NOBODY has experience because these are all one of a kind. Those who bid were pulled in by the allure and look of this pennant, but wishing it real doesn't make it so.

If it was $50 I might keep it just to hang on the wall, but never for a significant sum. I would get a sick feeling in my gut every time I walked past this piece if I paid serious $ for it. Run away and forget it. You will not be sorry you avoided this mistake. You can purchase an amazing and 100% genuine pennant for significantly less than this and enjoy it forever.

[barrysloate]

Even if there was a slight possibility it's vintage, and I don't believe it is, how could you enjoy owning it? It's still $3000, and every time you look at it there will be that little voice asking if you in fact made a giant mistake. It's very easy to acquire period materials and thread, and it wouldn't be very hard to duplicate it if you had a little experience working with fabric. Given it is unlikely to be real, how could you not return? It's not worth the risk.

[Shoeless Moe]

The interesting thing will be to see when the seller re-lists. Were one of the 4 other bidders not a member of this forum, if so it's still going to go high.

Seller could still get anywhere from 1500 to 3 grand if # 2 bidder is not a member.

[gratefuldog3]

If the pennant still remains questionable at the end of all this, I can tell you I really do not think the seller would even consider relisting the item. He's as upset with the ordeal as I am,( the buyer ), perhaps more if at all possible! Scott