Ichiro

[FourStrikes]

limited AB's these past few years, but...23 hits away from #3000...YES, lottsa singles, but...

just sayin' - haven't seen too much (milestone) Ichiro love lately.

ETA: could say "Arod pushin' 700 HR's, but...that's an entirely different point / thread.

.

[Peter_Spaeth]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ba...icle-1.2673313

[packs]

Picked this up last season. If Ichiro spends his retirement years in Japan I think he will become one of the more elusive HOFers to add to collections. He's already tough during his active career:

[Peter_Spaeth]

I remember noticing once that there are far far fewer of his rookie autographs than Pujols, was that by design, did he refuse to sign more than a limited number, or is there some other explanation?

[clydepepper]

While he is just now catching rose in career professional hits, he passed rose on the integrity list a LONG, LONG time ago.


- and rose would even sign that fact if you paid him.

[Tripredacus]

Its funny, I was looking it up last night and he was 1 hit away from Rose's pro total.

[HRBAKER]

[Econteachert205]

I'm a big Ichiro fan and even though it is an asterisk record, I still think it is deserving of a lot of celebration. Amazing accomplishment.

[Peter_Spaeth]

3000 hits starting at age 27 is incredible.

[ullmandds]

pete rose may still be the undisputed all time major league hit leader...and will be remembered for this long after he's gone...BUT...he'll also be remembered as a big douche!

on the other hand...Ichiro has never been anything less than an A1 class act...with more total hits than the douche!

[dgo71]

Originally Posted by Tripredacus

Its funny, I was looking it up last night and he was 1 hit away from Rose's pro total.

He actually was one hit away from Rose's MLB total. Rose had another four or five hundred hits in the minors, which are technically "pro" hits. Ichiro is amazing, undeniably classier than Rose and a sure first ballot hall of famer, but he's not the MLB hit leader nor the pro hit leader.

[packs]

I know that hits in Japan are not hits in MLB but Rose should at least acknowledge that those hits in Japan came in their professional league. They didn't come in the minors or anything like that. Rose said something like, "What's next? Are they going to count his high school hits too?". That is such a stupid thing to say and really does show how lame he is.

[chaddurbin]

c'mon this is how pete rose makes his living now, being the hit king nets him 2mil+ a year...of course he wants to protect his title.

ichiro's resurgence this year is kinda surprising tho, he's a sure-fire hof'er...hope he doesn't get pop for ped or something like that down the line.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by packs

I know that hits in Japan are not hits in MLB but Rose should at least acknowledge that those hits in Japan came in their professional league.

Sure he should - right after Barry Bonds and/or Hank Aaron acknowledge Sadaharu Oh's 868 home runs.

[packs]

I think you're missing the point. Rose was trying to diminish Ichiro's professional hits by equating Japanese professional baseball to high school baseball. No one said they count the same as an MLB hit, I said he should acknowledge it's the highest level of play in Japan, which has nothing to do with high school baseball. Also, Oh never played in the MLB and I highly doubt anyone is critical of his accomplishments.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by packs

Rose was trying to diminish Ichiro's professional hits by equating Japanese professional baseball to high school baseball.

Rose wasn't trying to do anything. A reporter asked him for his comment and he gave his opinion.

Edited to add: In other words, it wasn't Rose that brought it up.

Edited to further add: It shouldn't even be a topic for discussion. If we're going to even possibly consider Ichiro's hits from Japan, then let's consider all Japanese players statistics for all categories.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by dgo71

He actually was one hit away from Rose's MLB total. Rose had another four or five hundred hits in the minors, which are technically "pro" hits. Ichiro is amazing, undeniably classier than Rose and a sure first ballot hall of famer, but he's not the MLB hit leader nor the pro hit leader.

Ichiro is still a couple hundred hits behind Pete Rose if we want to start counting minor league hits as "professional." Ichiro played two years in the minors as well.

In baseball terms, the "pros" is unanimously considered to exclude minor league play. Ichiro has the most hits of any baseball players at the highest level.

Plus, Pete Rose used a corked bat and was a known cheater, all his stats deserve an asterisk.

[packs]

No one is suggesting his total hits from both leagues mean he is the all time MLB hit leader.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by packs

No one is suggesting his total hits from both leagues mean he is the all time MLB hit leader.

Ichiro doesn't have the MLB record, but the pro baseball record.

[chaddurbin]

ok ichiro is great. starting your mlb rookie year at age 27 and still get to 3000 hits is an incredible achievement....but japan baseball is equivalent to AAA baseball here. if a guy like wladimir balentien who can't hack it in the major can jack 60 dongs over there, i have a hard time being impressed by any milestone being achieved over there.

ichiro--i wish you would've started your mlb career at age 21...what could've been.

[Tripredacus]

Originally Posted by dgo71

He actually was one hit away from Rose's MLB total. Rose had another four or five hundred hits in the minors, which are technically "pro" hits. Ichiro is amazing, undeniably classier than Rose and a sure first ballot hall of famer, but he's not the MLB hit leader nor the pro hit leader.

You're right. I used the wrong qualifier.

[bn2cardz]

Ichiro has the Single Season Hits record with 262 in 2004
He is in the top 20 two other seasons (242 in 2001 and 238 in 2007).

Rose's top year is 230, enough to put him only tied for 36 on that list.

On the other hand when comparing the age 27-41 stats for both players Rose has 2970 hits and Ichiro has 2935. This is because Ichiro started trailing off last year. If you don't include their 41 year old stats then Ichiro is ahead 2844 to Rose's 2798. It is hard to say what would have been prior to Ichiro's age 27 season, but I believe there are arguments on both sides that are convincing.

For me there is no clear answer who should be considered better, but Ichiro is certainly Rose's closest counterpart.

[packs]

IMO Ichiro is the superior hitter. Rose has more hits but I don't think he was the hitter Ichiro is / was. They both led the league in hits 7 times, but Ichiro tied that mark in 8 fewer seasons, including 5 seasons in a row as hit leader. Rose never led the league in hits more than 2 years in a row and played in a era when pitching wasn't as specialized as it is now. Ichiro's highest season average was 372 vs Rose's 348. Both great players but I think Ichiro might be the better pure hitter. And perhaps the most fascinating stat of his career, Ichiro led the league in intentional walks 3 times.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by packs

IMO Ichiro is the superior hitter. Rose has more hits but I don't think he was the hitter Ichiro is / was. They both led the league in hits 7 times, but Ichiro tied that mark in 8 fewer seasons, including 5 seasons in a row as hit leader. Rose never led the league in hits more than 2 years in a row and played in a era when pitching wasn't as specialized as it is now. Ichiro's highest season average was 372 vs Rose's 348. Both great players but I think Ichiro might be the better pure hitter. And perhaps the most fascinating stat of his career, Ichiro led the league in intentional walks 3 times.

As I stated it is a hard comparison, but the other side of the debate is that Ichiro wasn't a better hitter, he was a faster hitter. Ichiro has 504 SB compared to Rose's 198. Yet Ichiro's OBP is .357 to Rose's .375. Ichiro only has 1 full season where is OBP was over .400. Rose has 5 Seasons over .400 OBP (all five seasons are within the same age range that Ichiro played in the MLB).

Comparing the age 27 to 41 seasons, to try and make it as even as possible, the OPS+ of Ichiro is 108, Rose is 126. Ichiro had 995 SO with 596 walks whereas Rose had 696 SO with 1105 walks. In this time Ichiro had more PA with 10101 compared to Rose who only had 10779 yet Rose still had more hits. As far as their BA Ichiro had .314 and Rose had .313.

[dgo71]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Ichiro is still a couple hundred hits behind Pete Rose if we want to start counting minor league hits as "professional." Ichiro played two years in the minors as well.

In baseball terms, the "pros" is unanimously considered to exclude minor league play. Ichiro has the most hits of any baseball players at the highest level.

Plus, Pete Rose used a corked bat and was a known cheater, all his stats deserve an asterisk.

I don't know where you get your baseball terms from, but there's no need for quotation marks around professional. Minor league players get paid to play the game, hence they are the very definition of professional. In my experience, only the casual fans don't understand that difference.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by dgo71

I don't know where you get your baseball terms from, but there's no need for quotation marks around professional. Minor league players get paid to play the game, hence they are the very definition of professional. In my experience, only the casual fans don't understand that difference.

Would you consider barnstorming to be professional? They're getting paid. I have never heard of a fan refer to single A balls as the pros.

I know the literal definition of professional baseball, but I have never seen someone try to include minor league ball in career stat records.

[dgo71]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

I have never heard of a fan refer to single A balls as the pros.

Those are exactly the casual fans I referred to. Single-A, rookie ball for that matter, is pro. Why do you think there's such a fuss about eligibility with the recent draft picks. Ian Anderson, the #3 overall pick, cannot sign his professional contract until after June 23rd, when he graduates high school. Because it's a PROFESSIONAL contract.

Every single person I talk baseball with considers the minor leagues professional. Every player I've ever talked to considers it professional. The link from SABR, whose opinion on baseball is pretty relevant, considers it professional. I really don't even see where the debate is, this isn't a matter of opinion, it's a simple fact. Minor leaguers' rights are controlled by the parent club they are affiliated with, and they are paid from that same organization. It doesn't get any more professional than that.

Professional League and Major League are not the same thing and do not have the same meaning, although many confuse the two as being the same thing.

[dgo71]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

ok ichiro is great. starting your mlb rookie year at age 27 and still get to 3000 hits is an incredible achievement....but japan baseball is equivalent to AAA baseball here. if a guy like wladimir balentien who can't hack it in the major can jack 60 dongs over there, i have a hard time being impressed by any milestone being achieved over there.

Exactly.

Tuffy Rhodes. Nuff said...if you don't know, Google his stats in MLB versus Japan. On the flip side, compare Kaz Matsui's stats in Japan to what he did once he came over here.

I don't even know if Triple-A is a fair comparison. While there are some great talents in Japanese baseball, the league in the overall is significantly weaker than MLB. You don't see star players going from the US to Japan, you see guys trying to hang onto a job. And with few exceptions, the players coming over from Japan do not have nearly the same success. Ichiro being the obvious exception.

[HRBAKER]

Of course Single A is professional baseball.

[FourStrikes]

LOVE Ichiro 3000k hits is 3000K MLB hits...

it's been a while, but...10 GG's is impressive as well.

would have LOVED to see him in MLB earlier, as his #'s would have
been even sicker as well!

lovi'n me some Ichiro!

[DaClyde]

Originally Posted by FourStrikes

LOVE Ichiro 3000k hits is 3000K MLB hits...

K is used for thousand. Technically wouldn't 3000K be 3,000,000?

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by DaClyde

K is used for thousand. Technically wouldn't 3000K be 3,000,000?

I think he's including Ichiro's Strat-o-Matic hits.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by dgo71

Those are exactly the casual fans I referred to. Single-A, rookie ball for that matter, is pro. Why do you think there's such a fuss about eligibility with the recent draft picks. Ian Anderson, the #3 overall pick, cannot sign his professional contract until after June 23rd, when he graduates high school. Because it's a PROFESSIONAL contract.

Every single person I talk baseball with considers the minor leagues professional. Every player I've ever talked to considers it professional. The link from SABR, whose opinion on baseball is pretty relevant, considers it professional. I really don't even see where the debate is, this isn't a matter of opinion, it's a simple fact. Minor leaguers' rights are controlled by the parent club they are affiliated with, and they are paid from that same organization. It doesn't get any more professional than that.

Professional League and Major League are not the same thing and do not have the same meaning, although many confuse the two as being the same thing.

This is beginning to deviate from my original point. There is no logical reason to consider minor league statistics in assessing the historical records of professional baseball players. We don't consider spring training (also professional baseball) or barnstorming (also professional baseball) or off season foreign exhibition games (also professional baseball). We track stats at baseballs highest levels which is the MLB in America, Negro Leagues when relevant and the NPB in Japan.

[dgo71]

To that point, Negro League statistics are not calculated into career MLB totals. Neither are foreign leagues. Jackie Robinson's stats in the Negro Leagues aren't on his HOF plaque and nobody considers Hideo Nomo to be a 200-game winner. This conversation only came about because Ichiro is in a unique situation and as great a player as he is, the media wants to make it an even bigger story.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by dgo71

To that point, Negro League statistics are not calculated into career MLB totals. Neither are foreign leagues. Jackie Robinson's stats in the Negro Leagues aren't on his HOF plaque and nobody considers Hideo Nomo to be a 200-game winner. This conversation only came about because Ichiro is in a unique situation and as great a player as he is, the media wants to make it an even bigger story.

Josh Gibson is credited with 800 home runs on his hall of fame plaque.

[packs]

It is a big story. They made a big deal when Matsui hit his 500th professional career home run too. But no one is saying Ichiro is the all time MLB hit leader just as no one claims Matsui has 500 MLB home runs. I don't understand what you're trying to take away from Ichiro. His combined totals cover two professional leagues, i.e. his career at the highest level of organized baseball in two countries. His hits in Japan came at the highest level. That's why people talk about them. His hits here come at the highest level. You can't fault a guy for being born in Japan and playing at the highest level available to him. Bringing up guys like Tuffy Rhodes to somehow say that Ichiro's previous successes weren't true successes is silly. Tuffy Rhodes couldn't hack it in MLB, Ichiro never had a chance to play in MLB until he'd already served his time in Japan. It's not the same thing.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by packs

It is a big story. They made a big deal when Matsui hit his 500th professional career home run too. But no one is saying Ichiro is the all time MLB hit leader just as no one claims Matsui has 500 MLB home runs. I don't understand what you're trying to take away from Ichiro. His combined totals cover two professional leagues, i.e. his career at the highest level of organized baseball in two countries. His hits in Japan came at the highest level. That's why people talk about them. His hits here come at the highest level. You can't fault a guy for being born in Japan and playing at the highest level available to him. Bringing up guys like Tuffy Rhodes to somehow say that Ichiro's previous successes weren't true successes is silly. Tuffy Rhodes couldn't hack it in MLB, Ichiro never had a chance to play in MLB until he'd already served his time in Japan. It's not the same thing.

+1

[HRBAKER]

It's made a bigger deal partially because of how much of a d-bag Rose is being and has been for years. The records are not remotely comparable but there is some satisfaction for many in seeing Rose get so lathered. He has brought it on himself.

[dgo71]

Originally Posted by packs

It is a big story. They made a big deal when Matsui hit his 500th professional career home run too. But no one is saying Ichiro is the all time MLB hit leader just as no one claims Matsui has 500 MLB home runs. I don't understand what you're trying to take away from Ichiro. His combined totals cover two professional leagues, i.e. his career at the highest level of organized baseball in two countries. His hits in Japan came at the highest level. That's why people talk about them. His hits here come at the highest level. You can't fault a guy for being born in Japan and playing at the highest level available to him. Bringing up guys like Tuffy Rhodes to somehow say that Ichiro's previous successes weren't true successes is silly. Tuffy Rhodes couldn't hack it in MLB, Ichiro never had a chance to play in MLB until he'd already served his time in Japan. It's not the same thing.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Ichiro. I said in my first post he's an amazing player and a sure-fire 1st ballot HOFer. I'm a huge fan of the guy. However, I also understand that the word "professional" doesn't somehow lose its meaning when applied to baseball, and if you're going to consider hits in Japan into career stats, then any level of professional ball should be considered. My point about Rhodes wasn't to diminish Ichiro's accomplishments, it was simply to point out that the Japanese League, whether it's their highest level or not, is not comparable to MLB, and it's not. It's no slight on Ichiro to say he's not the "professional hits leader" when it's true.

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Josh Gibson is credited with 800 home runs on his hall of fame plaque.

Josh Gibson never played in MLB. So...

[packs]

He is the professional hits leader though. His hits in Japan were in the MLB level of Japanese baseball. No one is claiming he's the MLB all time hits leader.

Anyway, here is my newest pick up. Ichiro's signed Japanese rookie:

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by packs

IMO Ichiro is the superior hitter.

No.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

As I stated it is a hard comparison, but the other side of the debate is that Ichiro wasn't a better hitter, he was a faster hitter. Ichiro has 504 SB compared to Rose's 198. Yet Ichiro's OBP is .357 to Rose's .375. Ichiro only has 1 full season where is OBP was over .400. Rose has 5 Seasons over .400 OBP (all five seasons are within the same age range that Ichiro played in the MLB).

Comparing the age 27 to 41 seasons, to try and make it as even as possible, the OPS+ of Ichiro is 108, Rose is 126. Ichiro had 995 SO with 596 walks whereas Rose had 696 SO with 1105 walks. In this time Ichiro had more PA with 10101 compared to Rose who only had 10779 yet Rose still had more hits. As far as their BA Ichiro had .314 and Rose had .313.

^^ This.

Ichiro had a .943 career OPS in Japan. His OPS in the Majors is .763, nearly 200 points lower.

If that doesn't clue somebody in as to the disparity in talent between the two leagues, nothing will.

Ichiro is great at hitting singles. Lots of singles. In 2004, when he hit .372, and set the hits record with 262, he had 24 doubles, 5 home runs, and 8 RBI.

225 singles.

He has 2,980 hits in the bigs. 2,429 of those are singles. How the hell does a player have over 10,000 Big League at bats, and only 551 extra base hits?

[packs]

Is anyone challenging the disparity between the leagues?

[HRBAKER]

Ichiro is great at hitting singles. Lots of singles. In 2004, when he hit .372, and set the hits record with 262, he had 24 doubles, 5 home runs, and 8 RBI.

225 singles.

8 RBI?

How about 60.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Ichiro is great at hitting singles. Lots of singles. In 2004, when he hit .372, and set the hits record with 262, he had 24 doubles, 5 Triples, and 8 Home Runs and 60 RBI .

I fixed your post, you were lined up wrong on the stats.

[bn2cardz]

. double post .

[the 'stache]

It was a poor edit. Sorry. I had a brain fart.

RBIs wouldn't be at all relevant in a comment of how few of his 262 hits were extra base hits. I hope you can see that I meant 8 home runs, and not 8 RBIs. The Mariners were pretty bad then, but if Ichiro only drove in 8 with 262 hits, I think we'd be looking at the worst team in MLB history, lol.

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Ichiro is great at hitting singles. Lots of singles. In 2004, when he hit .372, and set the hits record with 262, he had 24 doubles, 5 home runs, and 8 RBI.

225 singles.

8 RBI?

How about 60.

[the 'stache]

Thank you, Andy. The post, as I'd originally written it, was a bit more involved. Then I decided to narrow it down a bit, and forgot to amend the last stat from RBI to home runs.

I do have brain farts from time to time.

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

I fixed your post, you were lined up wrong on the stats.

[the 'stache]

Honestly, Packs? Anybody placing Japanese league and MLB hits on the same level certainly should be thinking about that disparity. They may both represent the top professional baseball leagues in their respective countries, but they're just not the same. Maybe not quite apples and oranges, but different fruits, certainly.

Don't get me wrong. I really like Ichiro. If I built a team, would I put him on it? Oh, hell yes. The guy is a fantastic pure hitter, and one of the best outfielders I've ever seen. He reminds me a lot of Clemente in right. Great range, great instincts, and at least for the first ten years of his career here, maybe longer, he had an absolute cannon. I haven't seen him as much the last few years, so I can't comment on his arm strength now. But it was, and may still be, elite.

And, I certainly respect the man, and his remarkable work ethic. He plays every game hard. That's the kind of quite, dignified leader you want on a team. Rah rah guys are fine sometimes, especially when a club house is down, and needs a boost. But leading by example has always earned my respect.

But this whole "Ichiro passes Rose" narrative is really irritating to me. Rose may be a pariah within MLB circles now, and a complete tool in real life. And, it's a real shame that the man off the field isn't nearly as great as he was on it. But the man faced the best competition in the world for every one of those hits, and I think it cheapens his record to say that Ichiro somehow "passed" him on the all-time hits list, even if it's made clear that it's some "professional baseball record", and not an MLB only record.

Until somebody passes Rose on the all-time hit list by hits clawed out in the Major League teams only, like him or not, Rose is the all-time hit king. We can all play the "what if Ichiro started here, and had those extra nine seasons" game, and it would make for some fun projecting (especially to a stat nerd like me). But that would be nothing but conjecture.

Originally Posted by packs

Is anyone challenging the disparity between the leagues?

[packs]

I agree on Rose but what I'm saying is these posts seem to be trying to undermine his accomplishments in some way, or take away from what he's done, which I think is wrong. It wasn't Ichiro's fault he was born in Japan. He was obligated to play there for 9 seasons before he could become a free agent. He didn't play in Japan to duck the MLB, and he didn't play in Japan because he wasn't good enough for the MLB. He played there because he was obligated. So factor in that lack of freedom when discussing his career in two leagues instead of saying Ichiro faced weak competition, his hits aren't worth as much.