1963 Topps checklist question

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

This is also true for series 4, with the clarification that team cards, combo cards, and rookie cards match the border only.

It's not that, all 1963 Topps baseball sheets are that way. Someone accused me of being wrong that every player card on a horizontal row has the same color inset circle.

[Kevvyg1026]

Regarding earlier post which stated that 55 card series were issued in both 61 & 64:

The 7th series uncut (mostly) sheet I have seen for 1961 has 66 unique cards on it (not 55). Plus price guides show common cards as 523 - 589, which if the checklist is included gives 66 cards (since two numbers are missing). The 7th series for 1964 also has 66 cards (523-587, plus checklist).

[Cliff Bowman]

Getting back to the 7th series sheet, I know absolutely without a doubt that the top two rows are the yellow based cards. They could also be considered the bottom of the sheet, I don't know how to tell which end is up on a 1963 sheet. There is a recurring print flaw that affects the first eight yellow based blue inset circle cards, Ed Sadowski, Gus Bell, Cardinals team card, Ray Herbert, Sam Mele, Lou Klimchock, Mike McCormick, and Cliff Cook. The next three cards are Russ Snyder/Billy Klaus, Billy Klaus/Russ Snyder, and Don Cardwell. I know it's those three cards because they have blue inset circles and I know that Cardwell is the edge card, I just don't know the placement of Snyder and Klaus yet. The second row starts with the McNally multi player rookie card, but I don't know the order of the next ten cards, a yellow based checklist and nine yellow based red inset circle cards.

[Cliff Bowman]

Here are the last three cards on the 1963 Topps 7th series top row of yellow based blue inset circle cards, I don't know the order of Snyder and Klaus but Cardwell is definitely the 11th card on the edge.

[Cliff Bowman]

After scouring eBay, COMC, and WorthPoint I found these scans of miscut 1963 6th and 7th series cards to use to try to piece together each of the sheets as much as possible. The Freehan rookie card, McNally rookie card, and Cardwell are edge cards. If anyone can add any please do.

[G1911]

May not show up well in photo as this site likes to really compress my several hundred KB images down to 19kb on upload, and the evidence is subtle.

516 Purnal Goldy - was not the rightmost card in a row, a thin part of the next cards border can be seen at right.

567 Jim Duffalo - was not the leftmost card in a row, a very tiny part of the black picture frame can be seen upper left.

556 Jim Worthington was not (at least, in one of the rows he appeared on) in bottom row of sheet; I can't quite make out what team name and position partially appears at bottom here, but I will play with a zoomed in detail photo to try and ID

[Kevvyg1026]

The 5th series does appear to be a 77 card run. The cards 371 - 446 (plus checklist) contain 33 cards with a red border, 22 cards with a yellow border, and 22 cards with a green border. It could haven been printed with a 4 rows 3x each and 3 rows 4x each (essentially no real SPs) or four rows 4x, two rows 3x, and one row 2x (so 11 SPs). Based on the research by Vrecheck, I speculate that it was the 4x3 + 3x4, with one of the red rows having a print issue on the sheet.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

The 5th series does appear to be a 77 card run. The cards 371 - 446 (plus checklist) contain 33 cards with a red border, 22 cards with a yellow border, and 22 cards with a green border. It could haven been printed with a 4 rows 3x each and 3 rows 4x each (essentially no real SPs) or four rows 4x, two rows 3x, and one row 2x (so 11 SPs). Based on the research by Vrecheck, I speculate that it was the 4x3 + 3x4, with one of the red rows having a print issue on the sheet.

That is the series that has the 11 double printed red based green inset circle cards with the noticeable cropping differences on the front and some of them have differences on the back. Topps did that to fill out a full 22 card block for that series sheet. I doubt very seriously that Topps printed any sheets with anything other than 22 card color blocks on any 1963 baseball series sheets. ETA: The Topps sheet creators went through a lot of trouble to create those 11 double prints, there was no reason for those 11 double print cards other than the necessity to fill out a full 22 card color block to complete a 132 card sheet consisting of six color blocks of 22 cards each.

[Kevvyg1026]

My conclusion after reading all of the posts regarding my original post is that the border and inset colors have to match up and are in multiples of 11.

Therefore, either the print runs for Series 6 and 7 are wrong in the price guides and should be 447 - 511 (with the appropriate 431 checklist) for series 6 and 512 to 576 plus 509 checklist for series 7 or Topps inserted a lot of DPs in both series 6 and 7 to make the colors match (I find the latter hard to believe).

The SPs currently listed in price guides for the 6th series, despite being accepted for over 50 years by the industry, just don't match up with respect to border colors and certainly don't occur in multiples of 11, so I question their validity.

If the number scheme I proposed for the print runs 6 & 7 occurred, the colors match up and no SPs occur. My fervent hope is that some uncut material for either series would be found so we can ascertain what actually transpired.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

My conclusion after reading all of the posts regarding my original post is that the border and inset colors have to match up and are in multiples of 11.

Therefore, either the print runs for Series 6 and 7 are wrong in the price guides and should be 447 - 511 (with the appropriate 431 checklist) for series 6 and 512 to 576 plus 509 checklist for series 7 or Topps inserted a lot of DPs in both series 6 and 7 to make the colors match (I find the latter hard to believe).

The SPs currently listed in price guides for the 6th series, despite being accepted for over 50 years by the industry, just don't match up with respect to border colors and certainly don't occur in multiples of 11, so I question their validity.

If the number scheme I proposed for the print runs 6 & 7 occurred, the colors match up and no SPs occur. My fervent hope is that some uncut material for either series would be found so we can ascertain what actually transpired.

Agree 100%, the 6th and 7th series are each 66 cards, which each having 3 different color 22 card blocks and no short prints. It’s possible for a 22 card color block to be short printed on a 1963 Topps sheet but that wouldn’t make any sense in a series of 66 cards on a 132 card sheet or a 264 card double sheet. I would also add that all 1963 Topps sheets were printed in 22 card color blocks, the 5th series has 77 cards but there were 11 double prints created in order to fill out a 22 card color block making it in essence an 88 card series. Unless some partial sheets or miscut cards showing two different color base cards on the same card show up it will be virtually impossible to show the layouts of the 22 card color blocks on either the 6th or 7th series sheets. I believe the 7th series sheet has the 22 card yellow block at either the top or the bottom of the sheet because it has a recurring print flaw of a horizontal row missing border lines but I can’t prove it, but it wouldn’t make sense for that flaw to affect a horizontal row in the middle of the sheet.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

My conclusion after reading all of the posts regarding my original post is that the border and inset colors have to match up and are in multiples of 11.

Therefore, either the print runs for Series 6 and 7 are wrong in the price guides and should be 447 - 511 (with the appropriate 431 checklist) for series 6 and 512 to 576 plus 509 checklist for series 7 or Topps inserted a lot of DPs in both series 6 and 7 to make the colors match (I find the latter hard to believe).

The SPs currently listed in price guides for the 6th series, despite being accepted for over 50 years by the industry, just don't match up with respect to border colors and certainly don't occur in multiples of 11, so I question their validity.

If the number scheme I proposed for the print runs 6 & 7 occurred, the colors match up and no SPs occur. My fervent hope is that some uncut material for either series would be found so we can ascertain what actually transpired.

Disagree 100%. Dealers at the time sold by the series and the 7th series started with 523. There has been no evidence given to explain this fact.

Please explain how we should expect the SPs to fall if the series were 447-522 and 523-576. We know Topps double printed cards every year 1961-1968 including the 5th series in 1963, so why is it hard to believe they double printed cards in the 6th and 7th series?

[Kevvyg1026]

DPs occur certainly in Series 1 for every year through 1969, whether or not they are listed in price guides. This is because Series 1 had 110 cards printed in the sheet (checklist 1 was printed twice, so cards 1-109), with 42 of those cards printed 3x in the sheet, 66 cards printed twice within the sheet, and the checklist 1 printed 6 x in the sheet. The cards printed 3x in this series are the ones sometimes labeled DPs in the current price guides (e.g., 66 Rose, Hunter, or Mantle).

In 1967, the series 534 - 609 has DPs labeled in current price guides. This has not yet been completely explained, but I suspect that the DPs are because there were 44 cards printed 4x, 22 cards printed 3x, and 11 cards printed twice within the 264 card sheet. The cards printed 4x are the DPs.

Although in earlier years (i.e., 50s), Topps might insert a second copy of a card in a different row, no uncut material that I have seen from 1961-1969 exhibits this procedure. In other words, a row of 11 cards maintains the same 11 cards every time that row shows up in the sheet.

To answer your second question, if the printing for 1963 was done as series 6 (447 - 522) and series 7 (523 - 576), then series 6 would need to have an extra 22 cards printed (6R, 9Y, and 7B) in order to match border colors or, alternatively, there would have to be 11 cards short printed (5 fewer cards with red border, 2 less yellow border, and 4 less blue border). Those 22 cards would be DPs or the 11 cards would be SP.

Similarly, series 7 would require an additional 11 cards printed, with a border color of 4R, 3Y, and 4B to be DPs in order to have the border colors match up.

As I mentioned earlier, there is a conflict between price guide information, vendor cases & other anecdotal information, and the print pattern requirements since the border colors must occur in multiples of 11 for the print series.

Hopefully, someone will come forward with some uncut material that can help resolve the conflict. But I also find it interesting that if the printing really was as 447-511 and 512 - 576, then all borders and insets colors occur in multiples of 11, as they should, and no SPs or DPs exist.

[ALR-bishop]

This has been a great thread

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by rats60

Disagree 100%. Dealers at the time sold by the series and the 7th series started with 523. There has been no evidence given to explain this fact.

Please explain how we should expect the SPs to fall if the series were 447-522 and 523-576. We know Topps double printed cards every year 1961-1968 including the 5th series in 1963, so why is it hard to believe they double printed cards in the 6th and 7th series?

Actually many dealers just listed the series and sold them that way. Some had the number ranges some didn't and they were all over the place when they did show up in ads. I've been reviewing and scanning my run of The Trader Speaks and wish this thread had started a month ago as there are many series-by-series type ads I didn't scan as I'm tracking other things. I did find this in the April 1979 issue of TTS though, looks like some people got it right back then:

[BillP]

I think this really get me closer to where I was, 7th series begins at #512. The checklist starts at #507. Why would a dealer start with #512 unless that's what he opened from wax or vending. I've been in the 512-576 camp for a while. I will say that I can't figure out why #496 dalkowski rookie is always so high. Up until a month ago I was convinced that this was an undocumented SP. Now I think it's the 66 #591 treatment or someone is hoarding again (????).
I will bring up again for those still feeling the SP exist that the color scheme or blues and reds in the becket sp's doesn't line up for me.
Get thread and since I'm a 63 fan/collector really enjoy the insight.

billp

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by BillP

I think this really get me closer to where I was, 7th series begins at #512. The checklist starts at #507. Why would a dealer start with #512 unless that's what he opened from wax or vending. I've been in the 512-576 camp for a while. I will say that I can't figure out why #496 dalkowski rookie is always so high. Up until a month ago I was convinced that this was an undocumented SP. Now I think it's the 66 #591 treatment or someone is hoarding again (????).
I will bring up again for those still feeling the SP exist that the color scheme or blues and reds in the becket sp's doesn't line up for me.
Get thread and since I'm a 63 fan/collector really enjoy the insight.

billp

I think the Dalkowski demand was just due to his semi-mythical status as the ultimate fireballer.

I don't think the full picture on series has been developed yet for 1961-66 (except 63 now) as they all kind of followed the same pattern. It may include 1967 but Topps changed the first series checklist endpoint # that year, so it might be a new pattern started there (1st baseball set developed and produced solely after the move to Duryea in early 1966). Checklists never really matched the actual series until 1967

I'm working on a long term pricing research project (hence all the TTS scans) and much of this stuff was never properly sorted out from the time of issue until, well, now. Most pricing structures for the Topps sets issued in series really came into focus during a 15 month or so period from mid 1977 until the end of 1978 and then once the first Sport-Americana guide came out, it just took off from there. Beckett did two price surveys before the first SA book was published, one in 1977 and another in '78 (both results published in The Trader Speaks) and they basically just tracked set prices. The first had 343 respondents, the second just had 201, although it was an update of the first one.

Lew Lipset was about the first guy to focus on and write about star singles pricing in a major way in his "Lew's Corner" column every month in TTS, although George Lyons sometimes did so as well in "The Lyon's Roar".

[Kevvyg1026]

Thanks for this scan. It helps put things in perspective and, hopefully, might quiet some who believe the current guides regarding SPs, etc. If the Series 6 printing was 447 to 511, plus the red border variety of checklist 6 (#432), we find 22 cards with a blue border, 22 with a red border, and 22 with a yellow border.

Furthermore, of the 22 with a blue border, 10 have a red inset and 10 have a yellow inset, one is an all-star rookie and one is a team card. For the red border cards, there are 9 with a green inset and 9 with a yellow inset, plus a team card, a manager card, a rookie star car, and the checklist. And finally, for the yellow border cards, 9 have blue insets, 9 have red insets, plus there is a checklist (#509), a manager card, a rookie star card, and a team card. It is not that difficult to arrange the cards without inset circles so that everything occurs in multiples of 11, as it should.

A similar thing happens for Series 7, if it runs from 512 to 576, with checklist 7 included. We see 22 of each border color, and the inset colors also match up in the proper multiples.

Finally, the series 5 colors (both border and insets) also occur in multiples of 11 if the 431 checklist variety is the yellow one on the Series 5 print sheet.

Thank you for your help.

[Kevvyg1026]

I would think that for 1967, the print runs were:
#1: 1 - 109 (65 cards 3x, 43 cards 2x, and checklist 1 6x) - 110 cards
#2: 110 - 196, plus checklist 2 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#3: 197 - 283, plus checklist 3 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#4: 284 - 370, plus checklist 4 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#5: 371 - 457, plus checklist 5 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#6: 458 - 533, plus checklist 6 again - 77 cards
#7: 534 - 609, plus checklist 7 again - 77 cards

[toppcat]

I made an Excel sheet then saved it as a JPG-if anyone wants the spreadsheet just PM me. This covers 1961-72 and you can see, if it's correct, which series the SP's might be possible within. 1971 looks weird in Series 3 & 4 as well, don't have time to look at uncut sheets right now, have at it.

[Kevvyg1026]

Those numbers and series runs are the same as what I have seen. Runs with 66 unique cards (4x each in sheet), 88 cards (3 x each sheet), or 132 cards (2x each sheet) produce no SP or DP cards in that run.

However, a print run with 77 cards should have some SPs in it, although the degree of short prints can vary, depending upon the specific pattern Topps used.

For example, for a 77 card print run, there are many ways Topps may have arranged the sheet (264 cards, so 2 pages, 12 rows, 11 columns). These include:

A) 4x3 + 3x4 (i.e., 4 rows 3 times each, 3 rows 4x each) leads to mild degree of SP

B) 4x4 + 2x3 + 1x2 (22 true SPs)

c) 5x4 + 2x2 (22 SPs)

D) 1x5+ 1x4 + 5x3

E) probably others

For a 110 card run, I believe Topps always used 4 rows 3x each and 6 rows 2x each, with one checklist in two of the 6 rows printed 3x (so 6 copies) and the next series checklist in a row that was printed 2x. Thus, the 110 card series had 1 card printed 6x, 42 cards printed 3x, and 66 cards printed 2x each (109 unique cards, 264 total cards). Sometimes price guides refer to one of the 42 cards in the rows printed 3x each as DPs (e.g., 1966 Rose, Mantle, Hunter, etc.).

[toppcat]

Generally, I think post 1960, the 77 card series are where true SP's reside and they don't seem to follow a set pattern. So these are all possibilities with 77 counts (but some may not be true 77 card impressions):

1961: 5th & 6th
1962: 5th, 6th & 7th
1963: 5th (solved)
1964: 5th & 6th
1965: 5th, 6th & 7th
1966: 5th, 6th & 7th
1967: 6th & 7th
1968: 6th
1969: 6th & 7th

I think there may not really be SP's in 1968 or 1969, more like Over Prints, which I'm sure is true for some of the above in the years prior as well.

[BillP]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

I would think that for 1967, the print runs were:
#1: 1 - 109 (65 cards 3x, 43 cards 2x, and checklist 1 6x) - 110 cards
#2: 110 - 196, plus checklist 2 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#3: 197 - 283, plus checklist 3 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#4: 284 - 370, plus checklist 4 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#5: 371 - 457, plus checklist 5 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#6: 458 - 533, plus checklist 6 again - 77 cards
#7: 534 - 609, plus checklist 7 again - 77 cards

Great work, to continue our sleuthing with 1967 6th series, #476 Perez only SP mentioned in beckett for that series. Like with the 1966 #591, possibility that this card and that one were removed on 1 of the 2 sheets and replaced by a checklist? Only way I can come up with a legitimate 1 card sp. I guess the card would have to be on the end of the row. billp

[Kevvyg1026]

I will look at my uncut material later today for 1970, & 1971. My numberings may be slightly different.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by BillP

Great work, to continue our sleuthing with 1967 6th series, #476 Perez only SP mentioned in beckett for that series. Like with the 1966 #591, possibility that this card and that one were removed on 1 of the 2 sheets and replaced by a checklist? Only way I can come up with a legitimate 1 card sp. I guess the card would have to be on the end of the row. billp

I think I've seen 4-5 other cards mentioned as SP in the 67 semi's but usually only start cards are noted this way. And the 62 highs with only the rookie stars cards as SP's? No way it's only 8.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

I will look at my uncut material later today for 1970, & 1971. My numberings may be slightly different.

100% possible, I'm going from sources other than sheets on my list.

[Kevvyg1026]

In the 1965 5th series, Topps used a pattern of 4 rows 3x each, and 3 rows 4x each. The rows headed by Bateman, Blanchard, & Drabowski were printed 4x each in the sheet, while those headed by Alou, Bertainia, Jackson, and Shaw were printed 3x each. Technically, any card in those last four rows should be SPs, but perhaps the overall quantity printed was high, so the 3:4 ratio might not be that significant.

[Cliff Bowman]

I can confirm now that the #451 Indians team card is on the 6th series blue based red inset circle row and #470 Tom Tresh is on 6th series blue based orange inset circle row, so all 11 cards on each row of that 22 card color block are now known. The #553 Willie Stargell multi player rookie card can be confirmed to be on the 7th series blue based red inset circle row. That is Don Mossi opposite of the Stargell card. I will need more proof to be able to confirm which rows all of the other non single player cards are in the 6th and 7th series of the 1963 set. I have found several end of sheet cards and cards that can be confirmed being side by side but it will be a long process to construct the sheets. For example, Walt Bond, Harmon Killebrew, Ken Aspromonte are three consecutive cards on the 6th series red based yellow inset circle row.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

In the 1965 5th series, Topps used a pattern of 4 rows 3x each, and 3 rows 4x each. The rows headed by Bateman, Blanchard, & Drabowski were printed 4x each in the sheet, while those headed by Alou, Bertainia, Jackson, and Shaw were printed 3x each. Technically, any card in those last four rows should be SPs, but perhaps the overall quantity printed was high, so the 3:4 ratio might not be that significant.

3:4 is likely Over Print City except maybe for the last series in any given year where it's not a 66 or 88 scenario.

[BillP]

Originally Posted by toppcat

I think I've seen 4-5 other cards mentioned as SP in the 67 semi's but usually only start cards are noted this way. And the 62 highs with only the rookie stars cards as SP's? No way it's only 8.

on the internet somewhere I have seen for sale the uncut sheet of sp and the uncut sheet of non sp highs. Both in frames. The 8 rookie cards are all grouped together in 1 section.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by BillP

on the internet somewhere I have seen for sale the uncut sheet of sp and the uncut sheet of non sp highs. Both in frames. The 8 rookie cards are all grouped together in 1 section.

Updated this post, found the full 77 card "split" 62 high series proofs. You need the sheets as printed over the 264 card full sheet to see what the SP's are:

[Kevvyg1026]

Great work. So the 11 cards with a blue border and red inset circle are: 451,457, 462, 465, 472, 477, 480, 490, 492, 495, 502.

And the 11 cards with blue border and orange inset are: 453, 455, 468,470, 481,483, 485, 488, 508, 510, 511.

The nine cards I show with Red border and orange inset are: 449, 460, 464, 467, 475, 478, 479, 493, 500 plus there is the Mets team (473) and the 431 Red border checklist.

The nine cards with red border and green inset are: 452, 459, 469, 471, 476, 484, 487, 501, 506, plus there is Al Lopez (458, Mgr card) and 496 (multiplayer rookie card).

The yellow border cards are: 447, 448, 450, 454, 456, 489, 498, 505 (all blue inset) plus 461, 463, 474, 482, 486, 494, 497, 504, 507 (red inset) and four cards (509 checklist, 491 Craft mgr, 466 rookie card, 503 Braves team) that I'm not sure which row they are on.

[jmoran19]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

I would think that for 1967, the print runs were:
#1: 1 - 109 (65 cards 3x, 43 cards 2x, and checklist 1 6x) - 110 cards
#2: 110 - 196, plus checklist 2 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#3: 197 - 283, plus checklist 3 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#4: 284 - 370, plus checklist 4 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#5: 371 - 457, plus checklist 5 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#6: 458 - 533, plus checklist 6 again - 77 cards
#7: 534 - 609, plus checklist 7 again - 77 cards

#1 math is wrong, should equal 264. Excluding series 1 CL 6 rows printed twice, 4 rows printed 3 times

[jmoran19]

Originally Posted by toppcat

I made an Excel sheet then saved it as a JPG-if anyone wants the spreadsheet just PM me. This covers 1961-72 and you can see, if it's correct, which series the SP's might be possible within. 1971 looks weird in Series 3 & 4 as well, don't have time to look at uncut sheets right now, have at it.

1971 series 3 and 4, 2 extras due to coin checklist printed first in series 2 run. 1970 series 1, no extra checklist. 1970 series 3 def. 109/110 card series and has 44 cards printed 3 times (DP), includes Carew and Lou Brock.

John

[Kevvyg1026]

In 1967, there were 110 cards in the first run, but only 109 unique cards. The first checklist was in two separate rows.

[jmoran19]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

In 1967, there were 110 cards in the first run, but only 109 unique cards. The first checklist was in two separate rows.

Not disputing that, problem is 65 were not printed 3 times etc. add it up you have over 264 cards being printed in series 1

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

Great work. So the 11 cards with a blue border and red inset circle are: 451,457, 462, 465, 472, 477, 480, 490, 492, 495, 502.

And the 11 cards with blue border and orange inset are: 453, 455, 468,470, 481,483, 485, 488, 508, 510, 511.

The nine cards I show with Red border and orange inset are: 449, 460, 464, 467, 475, 478, 479, 493, 500 plus there is the Mets team (473) and the 431 Red border checklist.

The nine cards with red border and green inset are: 452, 459, 469, 471, 476, 484, 487, 501, 506, plus there is Al Lopez (458, Mgr card) and 496 (multiplayer rookie card).

The yellow border cards are: 447, 448, 450, 454, 456, 489, 498, 505 (all blue inset) plus 461, 463, 474, 482, 486, 494, 497, 504, 507 (red inset) and four cards (509 checklist, 491 Craft mgr, 466 rookie card, 503 Braves team) that I'm not sure which row they are on.

On the 6th series red based cards I don't know which rows the Mets team card, manager Al Lopez, the multi player rookie card, and the #431 checklist are on. One of them is next to Brinkman but I can't tell conclusively. I can confirm that manager Harry Craft is on the 6th series yellow based blue inset circle row, he is next to J C Martin.

[BillP]

Circling back to the first series from 1963, in particular the 4 cards with different color borders on the bottom, fairly being one of these. I think that it was mentioned that these cards are on both sides of the middle of the sheet. So by there being 3 variations blue, white and yellow, does this imply that there are 3 printing sheets? A B and C? or a fourth where no variant color border shows up? a D sheet. So the 1st series may have had 4 different sheets. Card #29 and the debusschere definitely are on different sheets.

BillP

[Cliff Bowman]

I am now 99% certain that the card next to the 6th series red based yellow inset circle Ed Brinkman is the Steve Dalkowski four player rookie card. Dalkowski and the Mets team card both have the copyright going past the yellow ink and into the white edge, I didn't see any Lopez cards that did. The difference then between the Dalkowski and the Mets team card is that the U.S.A. is closer to the end of the yellow ink on the Mets card, there is a bigger gap on the Dalkowski. The first scan is from the off center Brinkman card, the second scan is a Dalkowski back, and the third scan is a Mets team card scan. It appears to me that the sliver on the back of the Brinkman and the Dalkowski are a match.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by BillP

Circling back to the first series from 1963, in particular the 4 cards with different color borders on the bottom, fairly being one of these. I think that it was mentioned that these cards are on both sides of the middle of the sheet. So by there being 3 variations blue, white and yellow, does this imply that there are 3 printing sheets? A B and C? or a fourth where no variant color border shows up? a D sheet. So the 1st series may have had 4 different sheets. Card #29 and the debusschere definitely are on different sheets.

BillP

I don't think any series or sets issued in standard size by Topps has had more than two half sheets involved. Probably any size card actually now that I think about it, although it seems that way sometimes. The way the printers set it up was each half of the sheet (132 cards here) was called a slit and there is slit a and slit b for a full (264 card) sheet. I have found that to be consistent in the documentation that still exists. There were however, multiple press runs where sometimes changes were made between each.

[Kevvyg1026]

Clarification: When there were 110 cards printed in a series, it typically used a pattern where there were six rows of 11 cards printed twice each on the sheet and four rows printed 3x each.

But as I mentioned earlier, checklist 1 was on two of the four different rows that were printed thrice. Thus, in a print run of 110 cards, with 109 of those cards being unique, there were 66 cards printed 2x each (so 132 cards). 42 cards were printed three times (so 126 cards), and since the checklist was on two of these rows, it was printed 6x. This makes 109 unique cards (66+42+1) with a total of 264 cards (132+126+6).

[Cliff Bowman]

From my previous post I can now say 100% that the 6th series Steve Dalkowski four player rookie is the card beside the Ed Brinkman and is then on the red based yellow inset circle row. The only cards that were printed upside down as opposed to the other cards on the same row were checklists, four player rookie cards, and the League Leader cards. The League Leader cards are only in the first series. The manager cards and the team cards were printed in the same upright pattern as the player cards so the backs are not upside down like the four player rookie cards and the checklist cards on the printing sheet.

[Kevvyg1026]

I looked at approximately 20 of each of the cards discussed by Mr. Verechek in his article regarding the slight shift variations in some 1963 series 5 cards. Besides those that he wrote about, I see that each card exhibits other variations. For example:

On # 439, Don Zimmer, there is a 3 stripe vs.4 strike variation (far left of card). The 3 stripe version has the bat on the inset pointed directly at the demarcation between the red border & Zim's collar. Also, the 3 stripe version has the elbow on inset touching the inset circle. The four stripe shows the bat pointed well above the red border, and there is a gap between elbow and circle. There are also differences in the stat box sizes and the trademark positioning between the two varieties.

On # 438, Wes Stock, the inset head is either under the gray or not. On cards where the head is not under gray, we see additional white area by the 3 on back of photo, and there is a sharper boundary between inset circle and pants. On the back, the top line of stats extends to end of yellow box.

All other cards show multiple variations, as well.

[Kevvyg1026]

https://www.net54baseball.com/album....ictureid=28515

[Cliff Bowman]

Rather than continue on this thread I am going to start a new thread of my attempt to construct the 1963 Topps 6th Series and 7th Series print sheets, I am waiting on a bunch of miscut 1963 cards from eBay, COMC, and Dean’s Cards the next week or two and then I will start the thread. I have figured out 22 of the 24 horizontal row edge cards, I haven’t figured out one from each series.

[BillP]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

Rather than continue on this thread I am going to start a new thread of my attempt to construct the 1963 Topps 6th Series and 7th Series print sheets, I am waiting on a bunch of miscut 1963 cards from eBay, COMC, and Dean’s Cards the next week or two and then I will start the thread. I have figured out 22 of the 24 horizontal row edge cards, I haven’t figured out one from each series.

great work. looking forward to that view.