Question regarding a hypothetical mail order problem for sellers and PayPal...

[Baseball Rarities]

I have been dealing with a unique ebay order that ended up being a scam. Luckily, I never shipped the card, so there is no loss on my end besides a few hours of lost time.

Anyways, while I was investigating my deal, several "what if" scenarios came up. For example, what if someone orders an expensive (say $10,000) item on ebay from me and pays for it via PayPal. Say that PayPal confirms the address and notes that the sale is eligible for Seller Protection. I called a PayPal customer service representative and asked her what I had to do protect myself as the seller. She said that I just needed to send it properly insured to the confirmed address. I then asked her what if the recipient claimed that either the wrong card or nothing was in the box. Her response was basically that the buyer had the right to return whatever he received from me for a full refund and that I would be responsible for that refund. I asked her how I could possibly protect myself from that situation and she said that I had the right to do business with whomever I wanted to and that I needed to decide if I trusted that person. She said that I needed to go with my "gut." Really? Go with my "gut" on a five figure transaction? The representative was very nice on the phone, but she gave me no confidence in doing a large transaction via PayPal with an unknown customer.

This seems like a pretty big loophole for a dishonest person to scam someone. What are your thoughts?

[ATP]

I can tell you that I watched a very close friend lose a $3500 item when the buyer claimed he sent him some junk wax and not the item. He returned the "junk wax" and I assume kept the actual $3500 item. There was sig confirmation but it didn't get signed for, though it was marked as delivered. I can't say for certain how he responded to paypal, but he is usually a rule following guy. They took the $3500 back and he got to keep the "junk wax" that was returned to him. Since then I don't think he has used USPS for anything. The verbiage of the seller protection policy is very vague on covering you for a snad dispute, which I suppose is what they could claim if they say something else was sent to them. He wasn't able to file an insurance claim because it was delivered.

On the other hand, I had a chargeback for a very large amount that paypal backed me on, that was for "unauthorized transaction" though, not the old switcheroo move.

[drcy]

I once shipped an expensive ring via UPS where the employee at UPS officially confirmed and documented the ring was the item being shipped. She took it out of the package, then repackaged it herself. I think this method was at the buyer's request and there was an extra charge.

[D. Bergin]

Hopefully on a switch like that, it was a domestic transaction, and the Police and Post Office authorities were notified and reports were filed in the town that it happened in.

I'd be incensed if somebody stole that much from me, with the blessings of Paypal/CC Companies.

[ATP]

I know a case was opened with the local police department that the buyer lived in. He spent at least an hours worth or time on the phone with them total, just following up not including the police report he filed. Nothing ever came of it, hard to say what kind of follow up was done. According to the seller, he got the impression that the police had a case opened against this guy before by someone else but never found any evidence. I do believe they said they would pay him a visit but not sure if it ever happened. The item was very unique, and I have kept an eye out for it since, as I am sure at some post it was sold and will resurface on the market.

[vthobby]

Kevin,

I'm glad you were able to avoid the problem on ebay.

After bidding on some high dollar items recently in some high profile auctions, I was a bit taken aback when I tried to pay with a credit card and was asked to send a money order or personal check for the items. This shows me that not only are the auction houses saving a few percent on the transaction, but that they are covering themselves totally by not accepting paypal or credit cards (and having possible fraudulent chargebacks).

One of the auction houses did accept credit cards if your winnings were below $2000 I believe.

It actually got me thinking that it was a very smart move by them. Ebay/Paypal of course do not care about Sellers and make it very difficult for Sellers to try this approach.

mike

[Peter_Spaeth]

I am surprised we don't hear of more of these he said he said episodes. Except in the extreme case, is Paypal really in position to make credibility determinations? I'm not confident a buyer is 100 percent protected either if the seller ships a rock instead of what you won, and claims he shipped what you won. How can either party prove what they shipped or received? If the weight of the package conforms to what was supposed to be in it, there is no objective evidence of what really happened or did not.

[drcy]

My technique is to include with the baseball card worth over $2,000 a tape of Fatal Attraction and a boiled rabbit so the buyer knows what type of person he's dealing with. No PayPal chargebacks yet, though I get few repeat customers.

Any card under $2000, it's just a mouse.

[packs]

I guess that would be one of the advantages of consigning, the shipping is out of your hand and the headache is someone else's.

If I sold a high enough dollar item to a stranger I'd probably insist on delivering it by hand. But I guess even then Paypal would say I didn't provide a shipping number/couldn't confirm delivery.