Will the owner re-slab the Wagner?

[Runscott]

There have been a few guesses as to how the Mastro indictment will affect the Wagner. Barry's response to the main indictment post got me thinking that a poll might be interesting.

Personally, I don't think the card will be re-slabbed, or that the value will be affected. It might be many years before we get the answer to the 'value' question, but curious what people think about re-slabbing and PSA compensation.

Originally Posted by barrysloate

You can't have the most famous and most valuable card in the hobby remain a sham. It's not an 8 and never was. It's time for it to be reholdered.

It's very possible the current owner would refuse to do it, as is his prerogative. Or maybe he bought it because he wanted to own the best baseball card in existence, and now he will realize it isn't. So PSA or the seller or the previous owner has to compensate him big time, and then he can have it reholdered. It's still a gorgeous card and would sell for a whole lot of money. But not for millions, and not as a NR MT/MT.

If the hobby is to be purged of all this garbage, that card has to be a part of it.

[barrysloate]

I don't think it will either Scott. While I think it's the right thing to do, it's still a long shot.

[Matthew H]

Is it really possible that someone can drop 2.8 million dollars on on a piece of cardboard with out knowing the history of the item? I always assumed the owners knew what they bought.

[Matthew H]

I also think that the owner shouldn't be able to ask for compensation until the card is re-graded and sold. I don't think it's fair to guess what the card will sell for in an auth slab.

[whitehse]

I almost think this card has become more iconic in the hobby than it was before. Removing from it's current slab would make it nothing more than a "common" Wagner (if that is possible). Everyone knew it was trimmed card before now so removing it from this slab would just ruin the mistique of the card. If and when this card comes on the market I am sure the new price will reflect what is now common knowledge where before there were only whispers of its past.

[Runscott]

Perhaps now that the truth is going to be told 'officially', Mastro will produce a small box containing the Wagner trimmings. If he doesn't , someone will.

[g_vezina_c55]

i vote for a re-grade by SGC

[barrysloate]

I voted for the last choice so it wouldn't get shut out. I know that nothing will change. Idealism and capitalism do not intersect.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

Is it really possible that someone can drop 2.8 million dollars on on a piece of cardboard with out knowing the history of the item?

NO.

[timzcardz]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Perhaps now that the truth is going to be told 'officially', Mastro will produce a small box containing the Wagner trimmings. If he doesn't , someone will.

And will PSA slab them "AUTH TRIMMINGS"?

[ctownboy]

IF Mastro is truly on the up and up NOW and IF he is going to tell the truth about the Wagner then MAYBE we will find out whether the Wagner was cut from a sheet. Furthermore, IF the card WAS cut from a sheet then MAYBE there is a photograph of that sheet.

If so, then MAYBE that photo will be released and we will have a better idea of how T206's were printed, as far as, how many cards were on a sheet and how the players were arranged.

David

[atx840]

Originally Posted by Runscott

a small box containing the Wagner trimmings.

The ultimate scrap, Johnny start saving.

[bsuttonosu]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Perhaps now that the truth is going to be told 'officially', Mastro will produce a small box containing the Wagner trimmings. If he doesn't , someone will.

If Topps gets ahold of them they'll probably put them in a 2013 Topps relic card. I can just see a Wagner Cuts Relic being the big pull next year.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

Who bought the card?

[Jay Wolt]

Originally Posted by Hot Springs Bathers

Who bought the card?

The owner of the Arizona Diamondbacks

[jefferyepayne]

I hope the value doesn't change at all and it completely wrecks the entire grading system. We need to get back to a time when a card's inherent aesthetics is considered in its price, not just the number on a slab.

jeff

[drc]

I think the owner doesn't get compensation if he believed it was trimmed before he bought it-- irrelevant to what the label says. And I assume most to all recent buyers were knowledgeable about the card. Many hobbyists believing the card is trimmed has been common knowledge for quite a few years to Pre-War collectors and dealers. I don't know, but would guess recent owners purchased the card aware of the prevailing theories it is trimmed.

[SetBuilder]

No one knows for sure whether it was trimmed or not. What a joke!

Even if it was, who cares...its the best baseball card in the world, trimmed or not.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

The owner of the Arizona Diamondbacks

That is correct. According to this article, the Wagner was to be put on display at Cooperstown and then at the D-Back's ballpark.

http://www.psacard.com/articles/arti...id=6852&type=1

Based on the FBI's indictment, it is therefore implied that the label on the holder is false by PSA's standards. In my opinion the Wagner needs to be reholdered as "AUTH", and PSA needs to be proactive in fixing it and compensating the owner for the monetary loss incurred. The card should not continue to be put on public display as a PSA 8 card in my opinion.

Also if the owner ever plans to sell the Wagner, he really needs to get the grade corrected otherwise he could be setting himself up for making a fraudulent sale unless he discloses the alteration in the sale, but that wouldn't make sense since the owner, not PSA would take the potential financial loss on the sale.

Originally Posted by jefferyepayne

I hope the value doesn't change at all and it completely wrecks the entire grading system. We need to get back to a time when a card's inherent aesthetics is considered in its price, not just the number on a slab.

jeff

Only PSA. I think a lot of us have been waiting to watch them burn for a while. I have at least

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

...
In my opinion the Wagner needs to be reholdered as "AUTH", and PSA needs to be proactive in fixing it and compensating the owner for the monetary loss incurred. The card should not continue to be put on public display as a PSA 8 card in my opinion.

Also if the owner ever plans to sell the Wagner, he really needs to get the grade corrected otherwise he could be setting himself up for making a fraudulent sale unless he discloses the alteration in the sale, but that wouldn't make sense since the owner, not PSA would take the potential financial loss on the sale.

I don't see how PSA can be ordered to compensate the current owner for monetary loss, when he hasn't yet lost any money, and there's really no way with a 1-of-a-kind item like this, that you can assume he would lose money if he sold it. But I wouldn't be too surprised if he pursues some sort of settlement with PSA, leaving the card holdered as-is.

Everyone who bought it, or was a serious player, knew it was trimmed, and that fact didn't seem to affect value. Perhaps we should assume that it is only selling for as LOW as it has been, because everyone knew it was trimmed. If it had been a legit card, maybe it would sell for double...triple what it has (I don't really believe this, but it's as valid as assuming the value will drop to some unknown number if it's 'officially' deemed to be trimmed).

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

Only PSA. I think a lot of us have been waiting to watch them burn for a while. I have at least

Don't you mean "melt"?

[SetBuilder]

Ken Kendrick could crack the slab, urinate on the card, re-slab it with duct tape, and the card would still be worth 7 figures.

[bbcard1]

I wouldn't know why it would be a consideration. Isn't the rule at hand for those who slab, resubmit until you get a grade your are happy with? Can't imagine it would do better.

[E93]

Who knows how long he will keep it. Assuming the evidence is definitive, it cannot be sold as a PSA 8 without disclosure any longer. Might as well re-slab it. I doubt it will drop in value both because it is still the nicest Wagner and the notoriety probably won't hurt it. That said, it will be interesting to see if the nicer untampered with Wagners, when they are next available, see a price hike.
JimB

[e107collector]

According to this article in the NY Daily News, one memorabilia dealer, who wants to remain anonymous, stated that the card is now worth $500k more, as soon as the indictments were unsealed.

I'm not sure how he came to that figure, but here is a link to the story:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-...icle-1.1122742


Tony

[SetBuilder]

.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I don't see how PSA can be ordered to compensate the current owner for monetary loss, when he hasn't yet lost any money, and there's really no way with a 1-of-a-kind item like this, that you can assume he would lose money if he sold it. But I wouldn't be too surprised if he pursues some sort of settlement with PSA, leaving the card holdered as-is.

Everyone who bought it, or was a serious player, knew it was trimmed, and that fact didn't seem to affect value. Perhaps we should assume that it is only selling for as LOW as it has been, because everyone knew it was trimmed. If it had been a legit card, maybe it would sell for double...triple what it has (I don't really believe this, but it's as valid as assuming the value will drop to some unknown number if it's 'officially' deemed to be trimmed).

You make some interesting points. First off, PSA guarantees their grades, so they have to honor that. See below:

http://www.psacard.com/about/financial_guarantee.chtml

As for buyer, to claim, "[Kendrick] knew it was trimmed" is a bit overstated. It's a safe bet he was aware of the rumors, but to say he knew the card was trimmed is a bit of a reach and to compound the problem can PSA prove that? Even if PSA argued that "Everyone in the hobby knew the Wagner was trimmed", such an argument would be a self-incriminating, public relations nightmare and would contradict what they've published about the card for the past two decades.

It's going to be real interesting how all of this plays out.

[christopher.herman]

SGC should slab the Wagner in the PSA slab and label it "AUTH".

[mrvster]

Chris,

LOL

That would be the ultimate scrap!!!

[RUSH2112]

I am no lawyer but the card will likely be presented as evidence in a trial, if there is a trial, and re-grading at this point would be useless and maybe against the law. The card could very well be in the hands of authorities right now. A prosecutor is going to want to present the actual card and slab as it was when it changed hands.

Ohio law 2921.12 Tampering with evidence.

(A) No person, knowing that an official proceeding or investigation is in progress, or is about to be or likely to be instituted, shall do any of the following:

(1) Alter, destroy, conceal, or remove any record, document, or thing, with purpose to impair its value or availability as evidence in such proceeding or investigation;

(2) Make, present, or use any record, document, or thing, knowing it to be false and with purpose to mislead a public official who is or may be engaged in such proceeding or investigation, or with purpose to corrupt the outcome of any such proceeding or investigation.

(B) Whoever violates this section is guilty of tampering with evidence, a felony of the third degree.

Effective Date: 01-01-1974

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by christopher.herman

SGC should slab the Wagner in the PSA slab and label it "AUTH".

that's ingenious, yes, they should take the wagner, still in the grade 8 psa slab, and slab the entire psa slabbed wagner in a bigger sgc slab, and mark it Authentic/trimmed. Nothing sweeter than that for SGC.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I voted for the last choice so it wouldn't get shut out. I know that nothing will change. Idealism and capitalism do not intersect.

I also voted for the last choice, only because it's a legal issue now.

Sincerely, Clayton

[FrankWakefield]

Voted no, the first choice.

The case is criminal, USA v. those defendants. The owner isn't a party. Realistically, the owner can't complain too much about what he bought, he chose to buy it.

Part of the 'charm' of that card is that it is in the first PSA holder... to break it out, something I normally advocate, would reset the card back toward what it was... and a significant component of that card's mystique is what that card has become, not what it was.

Gotta leave it in that plastic crap.

[ruth-gehrig]

+1

Originally Posted by travrosty

that's ingenious, yes, they should take the wagner, still in the grade 8 psa slab, and slab the entire psa slabbed wagner in a bigger sgc slab, and mark it Authentic/trimmed. Nothing sweeter than that for SGC.

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by e107collector

According to this article in the NY Daily News, one memorabilia dealer, who wants to remain anonymous, stated that the card is now worth $500k more, as soon as the indictments were unsealed.

I'm not sure how he came to that figure, but here is a link to the story:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-...icle-1.1122742


Tony

what a laugh ! Why remain anonymous ?

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

The owner of the Arizona Diamondbacks

I wonder what all the past owners are thinking right now.....or if they even care

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by T206DK

I wonder what all the past owners are thinking right now.....or if they even care

My guess: "I can't believe some of these guys on Net54 just realized my old Wagner was trimmed."

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by whitehse

I almost think this card has become more iconic in the hobby than it was before. Removing from it's current slab would make it nothing more than a "common" Wagner (if that is possible). Everyone knew it was trimmed card before now so removing it from this slab would just ruin the mistique of the card. If and when this card comes on the market I am sure the new price will reflect what is now common knowledge where before there were only whispers of its past.

+1

All the best, guys,

Larry

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

Voted no, the first choice.


Part of the 'charm' of that card is that it is in the first PSA holder... to break it out, something I normally advocate, would reset the card back toward what it was... and a significant component of that card's mystique is what that card has become, not what it was.

Gotta leave it in that plastic crap.

Very, very well said, Frank. It carries the story of a large part of our hobby with it, both good and bad, and a mystique that makes this particular card a transcendental one, an example that need not adhere or comply with other hobby standards at all.

Always appreciate your posts,

Larry

[Zach Wheat]

An item in this price range would probably be sold with a contract in place. The items concerning grading, card condition etc. would probably be covered under a Warranties & Representations section to avoid the legal issues.

[mark evans]

Some wild guesses: I believe the card will be re-slabbed in the context of its next sale and that PSA will not need to confront compensation as the card will not be sold for a loss. Having said that, I do believe its value (and the value of vintage cards generally) will taper off due to general economic conditions and aging (I can't bring myself to say 'demise') of baby boomers.

[boneheadandrube]

If the card was destroyed would anybody agree or be satisfied? I'm being serious btw.
GB

[Zach Wheat]

Greg,

Why would they do that?

[atx840]

Originally Posted by boneheadandrube

If the card was destroyed would anybody agree or be satisfied? I'm being serious btw.
GB

Um no, don't take it out on the card.....

[boneheadandrube]

Originally Posted by atx840

Um no, don't take it out on the card.....

Agreed,
Just tired of thinking about a trimmed T206. I was heavily involved in this hobby (pre WWII stuff) when I was an early teenager ('87ish) and was completely taken advantage of by A-Hole dealer types that would sell me trimmed T206's...I would then unwittingly sell them to collectors that trusted and liked me...I've had to live with this for a long time...
GB

[Peter_Spaeth]

Greg, I am sure Honus has plenty of company in high graded slabs, so destroying one card wouldn't do much to ease your pain, unfortunately.

[boneheadandrube]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Greg, I am sure Honus has plenty of company in high graded slabs, so destroying one card wouldn't do much to ease your pain, unfortunately.

Agreed again...would make one hell of a youtube though. "scotch taped to an m80" Boom! and no more...
GB

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by boneheadandrube

Agreed,
Just tired of thinking about a trimmed T206. I was heavily involved in this hobby (pre WWII stuff) when I was an early teenager ('87ish) and was completely taken advantage of by A-Hole dealer types that would sell me trimmed T206's...I would then unwittingly sell them to collectors that trusted and liked me...I've had to live with this for a long time...
GB

A good poll: what percentage of NM and up cards slabbed by PSA and SGC are trimmed? I won't post such a poll, but my personal guess is 85%

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Runscott

A good poll: what percentage of NM and up cards slabbed by PSA and SGC are trimmed? I won't post such a poll, but my personal guess is 85%

Pre WWI cards?