Gonzalez and Wren must go...

[CMIZ5290]

I'm sorry, but these are two of the most overrated Mgrs. and GM's in the business. I know the owner has alot to do with the success of the team, but the Braves would be far better if they change these two positions...

[Shoebox]

Frankly I think manager has relatively little influence on the game. You take Joe Torre and a subpar roster. I will take a top level roster and will name a new manger selected from the crowd every night and my team still finishes 20 games above yours in the standing. There isnt a manager in the league I wouldnt trade in a heartbeat to upgrade my 3rd starter or the 6 spot in my line up.

[the 'stache]

I respectfully disagree. I think a manager can make all the difference. One great example is the 1982 Milwaukee Brewers. Buck Rodgers led the Brewers to a first place finish in the strike shortened 1981 season. But the team started off slowly in 1982 under Rodgers. He got fired at 23-24. Harvey Kuenn, who was a coach, was made manager the rest of the way, and the Brewers went 72-43 with him at the helm.

This was a team with 4 future Hall of Famers (Robin Yount, Paul Molitor, Don Sutton and Rollie Fingers) and another guy I think is a future Hall of Famer, Ted Simmons. It had the 1982 Cy Young Award winner in Pete Vuckovich, the 1981 Cy Young winner and MVP Rollie Fingers, the 1982 MVP in Robin Yount. This team was loaded offensively. It hit 216 home runs. Gorman Thomas hit 39, Ben Oglivie had 34, Cecil Cooper had 32, Robin Yount had 29, Ted Simmons hit 23, Paul Molitor hit 19, Don Money hit 16. Cooper, Yount and Molitor had over 200 hits. Four guys drove in over 100 runs, and Simmons drove in 97. They could flat out hit. The difference between the Brewers being a .500 team, and the American League Champions, was the manager. Kuenn had a completely different coaching style. He was more laid back. He told his players to have fun. The team loosened up, and started playing up to their potential. They added Sutton at the beginning of September, but the Brewers were already 25 games over .500 at 78-53.

In this case, the manager made the difference. The players loved Kuenn, and he knew how to take the controls perfectly. The Brewers could have brought in anybody, and I don't think they're as successful with somebody else. At that place in time, it was a perfect marriage.

Originally Posted by Shoebox

Frankly I think manager has relatively little influence on the game. You take Joe Torre and a subpar roster. I will take a top level roster and will name a new manger selected from the crowd every night and my team still finishes 20 games above yours in the standing. There isnt a manager in the league I wouldn't trade in a heartbeat to upgrade my 3rd starter or the 6 spot in my line up.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I respectfully disagree. I think a manager can make all the difference. One great example is the 1982 Milwaukee Brewers. Buck Rodgers led the Brewers to a first place finish in the strike shortened 1981 season. But the team started off slowly in 1982 under Rodgers. He got fired at 23-24. Harvey Kuenn, who was a coach, was made manager the rest of the way, and the Brewers went 72-43 with him at the helm.

This was a team with 4 future Hall of Famers (Robin Yount, Paul Molitor, Don Sutton and Rollie Fingers) and another guy I think is a future Hall of Famer, Ted Simmons. It had the 1982 Cy Young Award winner in Pete Vuckovich, the 1981 Cy Young winner and MVP Rollie Fingers, the 1982 MVP in Robin Yount. This team was loaded offensively. It hit 216 home runs. Gorman Thomas hit 39, Ben Oglivie had 34, Cecil Cooper had 32, Robin Yount had 29, Ted Simmons hit 23, Paul Molitor hit 19, Don Money hit 16. Cooper, Yount and Molitor had over 200 hits. Four guys drove in over 100 runs, and Simmons drove in 97. They could flat out hit. The difference between the Brewers being a .500 team, and the American League Champions, was the manager. Kuenn had a completely different coaching style. He was more laid back. He told his players to have fun. The team loosened up, and started playing up to their potential. They added Sutton at the beginning of September, but the Brewers were already 25 games over .500 at 78-53.

In this case, the manager made the difference. The players loved Kuenn, and he knew how to take the controls perfectly. The Brewers could have brought in anybody, and I don't think they're as successful with somebody else. At that place in time, it was a perfect marriage.

Bill- Now, please allow me to preface my thoughts be recognizing you as the resident Brewers authority...however...

I respectfully disagree with your specific example. I don't believe the first third of 1982 was in any way indicative of how well the team played 'for Buck Rodgers'...remember that they were a first place team in 1981 and many a team has been as low as a single game under .500 through the first third of the season before showing marked improvement. Who's to say that they would not have achieved the same results under Rodgers?



As far as the original argument is concerned, it is very difficult to tell if great teams are that due to great managers. The 'what makes a great team great' is an argument that has so very many possibilities. Where the Braves' in the 1990s a great team because of Cox, or was it Mazone, or was it the improved defense, or was it the individual pitchers (ie Ruffing with the Yanks), or was the GM or even George Toma to thank?

Clearly, there was a lot to be thankful for and many to be thanked....but where do you draw the line? The Hall-of-Fame contains no Coaches and no Scouts...but few can argue that they are not part of the equation.

[Shoebox]

I wont say that a manager makes no difference at all but I think its pretty minimal. The Dodgers hsd a rather similar record to the Brewers example you gave. Mattingly was all but fired and the Puig caught fire. If ownership had been quicker to pull the trigger would we credit the guy taking his place with pushing the right buttons? The Marlins had a similar run under McKeon years back was that do to him or a team with mostly young players taking a large chunk of the season to find their stride. Before Torre won titles hevwas panned as Clueless Joe. I think rather than great managers elevating a team its easier to spot a bad manager that mangers to get in the way. I have always considered hiring Bobby Valentine on par with throwing gasoline on your head and trying to smoke a cigaratte. Eventually it will go bad fast. Those are the exceptions though. I see 90 percent of them as interchangeable and the way organizations treat the position indicates they feel similar. The most managers in baseball dont make nearly what their counterparts in other sports do. If things arent going well just fire the guy and plug in someone that got fired somewhere else.

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I respectfully disagree. I think a manager can make all the difference. One great example is the 1982 Milwaukee Brewers. Buck Rodgers led the Brewers to a first place finish in the strike shortened 1981 season. But the team started off slowly in 1982 under Rodgers. He got fired at 23-24. Harvey Kuenn, who was a coach, was made manager the rest of the way, and the Brewers went 72-43 with him at the helm.

This was a team with 4 future Hall of Famers (Robin Yount, Paul Molitor, Don Sutton and Rollie Fingers) and another guy I think is a future Hall of Famer, Ted Simmons. It had the 1982 Cy Young Award winner in Pete Vuckovich, the 1981 Cy Young winner and MVP Rollie Fingers, the 1982 MVP in Robin Yount. This team was loaded offensively. It hit 216 home runs. Gorman Thomas hit 39, Ben Oglivie had 34, Cecil Cooper had 32, Robin Yount had 29, Ted Simmons hit 23, Paul Molitor hit 19, Don Money hit 16. Cooper, Yount and Molitor had over 200 hits. Four guys drove in over 100 runs, and Simmons drove in 97. They could flat out hit. The difference between the Brewers being a .500 team, and the American League Champions, was the manager. Kuenn had a completely different coaching style. He was more laid back. He told his players to have fun. The team loosened up, and started playing up to their potential. They added Sutton at the beginning of September, but the Brewers were already 25 games over .500 at 78-53.

In this case, the manager made the difference. The players loved Kuenn, and he knew how to take the controls perfectly. The Brewers could have brought in anybody, and I don't think they're as successful with somebody else. At that place in time, it was a perfect marriage.

[KCRfan1]

I tend to agree with the others that the manager will make little difference, it's the talent on the field that wins the games. The 82 Brewers could hit the ball, however their weakness was the starting rotation. Offense will win games, pitching will win championships. Fingers is a relief pitcher, and most if not all clubs have a very good closer. Pete won 18 games, 3.3 something era, yet after that those starters were rough. I believe Caldwell had an era of 3.9 or so, the other 3 had era's in the 4's with one pushing close to 5. That team was pure offense and carried the Brewers staff.

[HRBAKER]

Good team, their biggest problems were Darrell Porter and Willie McGee in the end.

[CMIZ5290]

My God the Braves suck so bad...Get rid of these two idiots....

[clydepepper]

Braves fired GM Frank Wren today. I am on board with firing of the entire coaching staff with the exception of Pitching Coach Roger McDowell.

I've never been a fan of Terry Pendleton and co-hitting coaches Greg Walker and Scott Fletcher have been unable to get the results justifying their retention.

With a September crash worse than that in 2011, Freddie Gonzales, while being hand-picked by Bobby Cox, does not seem to be able to motivate improvement.

Further, they must find a way to unload B.J. Upton without risking the alienation of his brother Justin or the other young core players.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Braves fired GM Frank Wren today. I am on board with firing of the entire coaching staff with the exception of Pitching Coach Roger McDowell.

I've never been a fan of Terry Pendleton and co-hitting coaches Greg Walker and Scott Fletcher have been unable to get the results justifying their retention.

With a September crash worse than that in 2011, Freddie Gonzales, while being hand-picked by Bobby Cox, does not seem to be able to motivate improvement.

Further, they must find a way to unload B.J. Upton without risking the alienation of his brother Justin or the other young core players.

+1...I agree, this entire coaching staff is a joke. If I were John S., I would actually seek out some of the past Brave players who were great leaders (Murphy, Glavine, Smoltz etc...) They need a complete enema big time...

[Lgarza99]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

I'm sorry, but these are two of the most overrated Mgrs. and GM's in the business. I know the owner has alot to do with the success of the team, but the Braves would be far better if they change these two positions...

One down and one to go! The other domino should fall at seasons end.

[clydepepper]

Greg Walker, who was twice called a 'great hitting coach' by those someone should know and would not have an agenda in saying so....a Braves radio broadcaster, fell on his sword today.

Even Hubble saw the writing on THAT wall.

Cox wants to keep Gonzalez, but that shouldn't happen.

Only the third losing season in the last 24 - we are a spoiled fan base, huh?

- and a new stadium every 20 years.

[tonyo]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Greg Walker, who was twice called a 'great hitting coach' by those someone should know and would not have an agenda in saying so....a Braves radio broadcaster, fell on his sword today.

Even Hubble saw the writing on THAT wall.

Cox wants to keep Gonzalez, but that shouldn't happen.

Only the third losing season in the last 24 - we are a spoiled fan base, huh?

- and a new stadium every 20 years.

Did you hear the Chipper Jones interview on 680 a few days ago? He was very candid - said there would probably be scapegoats. Mentioned Walker saying he is a good hitting coach and he would endorse him to any team in the league.

Also said he believes they should keep Freddi

[clydepepper]

He's either drunk or posturing for a future position - or both.

[CMIZ5290]

I can't believe the Braves are retaining Gonzalez, but sources say they are.....

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by tonyo

Did you hear the Chipper Jones interview on 680 a few days ago? He was very candid - said there would probably be scapegoats. Mentioned Walker saying he is a good hitting coach and he would endorse him to any team in the league.

Also said he believes they should keep Freddi

Chipper Jones was a solid player, but he was also the biggest asshole in the League. For him to endorse Walker and Gonzalez shows what a poor leader he always was...

[clydepepper]

I seriously don't think that going to work. I think once a team goes through two separate September collapses, it's about not being able to motivate people...and that's management's job.

I hope they are watching the way the Royals manufacture runs.

The Braves have good pitching and defense, but the way that lineup is set up will never work! They need players who know their rolls. Jason Heyward could improve dramatically if they would just decide where to put him in the lineup.