Spalding & Reach G&B cards existance verified

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Posted By: Andy Baran

There is a great article in this weeks SCD about the existance of G&B cards of Albert Spalding and Al Reach. There are even photos of both cards. I'm sure that HOF collectors everywhere are cursing.

There is one inaccuracy in the report. It states that Al Reach is not available on any team issues, when he is in fact pictured on an 1871 A's team composite cdv, and an 1872 A's team composite trade card.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

HOF Spalding has an INDIVIDUAL card???

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

All I have for him is my 1873 Boston team cabinet.

At least it is OLDER than the G&B, right?

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Posted By: leon

the G & B's they are talking about are from 1872....what year is your cabinet again?

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Posted By: Brian H (misunderestimated)

So how big is this "card" of Spalding from him playing days with the orignal BOSOX ? Is it "cabinet" sized like the individual ones of his teamates (which I recall Scott F had at one point) that are on the composite Hal is referring to ?

And who (besides Reach and Spalding) are in this "set" ??

As I said, I'll have to go out and find an SCD -- if I can.

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Posted By: Andy Baran

Both are standard size 1888 G&B Chewing Gum cards. Both cards are line drawing portraits, picturing Spalding and Reach as the respective "President" of their team.

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Posted By: Brian H (misunderestimated)

So this card is about 11 years after Spalding called it quits as a player....Its an "owner card" -- which is very rare historically. The only other owner cards I can even think of are of Van Der Ahe (Old Judge etc.) and Comiskey (CJs, Sporting News etc.) and a collector produced set with Bill Veeck from the 70's. Even "King George" (Steinbrenner) doesn't have a card !
Salding is an interesting HOFer. As I recall, Spalding was primarily inducted as an Executive Pioneer although his short career as a Pitcher was HOF caliber (like Koufax or Dizzy Dean):

http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/spaldal01.shtml

Fom Baseball Hall of Merit :

Al Spalding - 1906 - SP/1B
Rockford 1868-70, Boston (NA) 1871-75; Chicago (NL) 1876-77
Cap: Boston Red Stockings (NA)
Stats NL Cy Young Award winner for 1876. The star pitcher of the National Association. Ace starter for five consecutive pennant winners (1872-76). Best year was 1872, where he was 38-8, with a 1.98 ERA (league 3.72), starting every game and throwing 405 innings for the champion Red Stockings. In 1875 he was 55-5 with a 1.52 ERA (league 2.36) in 575 IP, as Boston won their fourth consecutive pennant. Also an outstanding hitter for a pitcher, career .313/.323/.382 (league .286/.299/.354). Finished his career with a 253-65 record and a 142 ERA+ in 2891 IP. Led his league in wins six straight years (1871-76).

See: http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/primer/hom_discussion/23411/

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Posted By: Geno

That's pretty interesting that Spalding won the Cy Young Award in 1876. I guess whomever it was that came up with the name for the award was quite surprised that 15 years later a pretty good pitcher by the same name showed up in Cleveland...

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Whew.

If it is a card from AFTER his playign days, then it doesn't fall into my desire parameters!!!



Yes, I know... My T204 Jesse Burkett card is from his "managing" days ...

but I am willing and ready to replace it with a "Just So" Burkett at any moment!

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Posted By: jamie

steinbrenner had 2 cards issued:
1979-83 Coral-Lee Postcards 5 George Steinbrenner OWNER
1991 Foul Ball 14 George Steinbrenner Boss

there are in fact plenty of regional issues depicting various owners. topps all time fan favorite even did them one better issuing cards of gm's

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Here's one of my alltime favorites, Mack and McGraw (OK, so McGraw was only a part owner):

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Posted By: Chris B.

Could someone scan the pics in the article and post them here for those of us who have let our subscription expire?

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Posted By: Bob Lemke

Here are the images as provided by the cards' owner. Richard also provided data and photos of a handful of Hall of Famers' cards to be added to the 1888 Yum Yums checklist. An article on those additions will appear soon in SCD.

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Posted By: Paul

That's amazing, and of course upsetting to us HOF collectors who don't want to spend $100K on a card.

I'm still not 100% clear on why Spalding was elected -- if it was as a pioneer pitcher, like Candy Cummings, or as an executive like Branch Rickey. Like Hal, I'm hoping for the former.

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Posted By: Paul

By the way, how in the world did cards of this extraordinary signifcance remain unknown among most advanced collectors for so many years? (I know Jay Miller mentioned these once in the past, but they were still unknown to MOST collectors).

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Posted By: Andy Baran

Paul & Hal,

Sorry to disappoint you, but Spalding was elected as a pioneer executive, which makes the G&B card legitimately from when he was active in the role for which he was elected. He may have deserved to be enshrined for his playing record, but he played far too few seasons.


Hal,

The Just So Burkett is currently being professionally restored to it's original condition, using a period actress card from the same set. It is not actively for sale, but everything has it's price. I can tell you that it would cost more than you were willing to pay for the E107 Young to get the card away from me.

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Posted By: Paul

I have written to the Hall of Fame to see if their records distinguish between "pioneers" and "executives". If Spalding was elected strictly as a "pioneer", I think that would describe his role as an early pitcher and perhaps as someone who helped found the N.L., but not his role as an owner of the Chicago team. At least, that's what I'll tell myself.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Me too, Paul!

I don't think I would pay big bucks for the card...

but probably only because Spalding was never much of a HOF anyway.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Andy:

Remind me ... are there ANY OTHER Burkett "Just So" cards known to exist ANYWHERE??

Or is the one you are having re-done the ONLY one known to exist?

You are a brave man to have a "one-of-a-kind" item re-done!!

It will look a LOT better ... but I wonder what the "gurus" and "purists" will say about the value of it??

Then again .. if you have the only one ... the value is what YOU SAY IT IS!

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Posted By: Andy Baran

Hal,

Mine is the ONE AND ONLY Just So Tobacco Burkett known to exist

The reason that I am comfortable having it restored is that the card is already altered. All 4 borders, including the Just So Advertising, have been trimmed off. What I am doing is restoring the card back to it's original condition, using an original actress card from the Just So set. I would never restore a card just to improve the condition (or to try to get a better grade) nor would I restore the card unless I had period materials available to use in the restoration. This is really a unique situation. I'm not sure that restoring a card that is already altered can hurt the value, and I have to believe that improving the appearance of the card dramatically would have to at least increase it's desirability, if not it's value.

I'd be interested to hear what others think.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I think is prefectly fine as long is there is something being done to make it obvious that it is restored so that it cannot be sold later on down line as an "orignal" unrestored vard.

Jay

I saw weird stuff in that place last night. Weird, strange, sick, twisted, eerie, godless, evil stuff. And I want in.

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Posted By: runscott

When I created my OJ reprints I asked for board opinions, even sent out sample sets to OJ collectors prior to selling.

But of course I couldn't help myself - I made a couple of sets that looked as close as I could possibly manage...to the real thing (I even sent a set to Jay Miller as a joke). Keeping in mind that my heirs probably won't know the difference, I destroyed the "real-looking" fakes and created a "real-looking" set that had the same script "R" on the front as my reprint set.

True, they still might end up on ebay in 40 years, but you would have to be from the Ohio-Kentucky border to think they were real. What is it with that tiny section of the planet?

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Posted By: Andy Baran

There is going to be enough restoration done on the card that it's not going to fool anybody. I don't plan on writing "restored" anywhere on the card.

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Posted By: Paul

I agree with Andy that restoring the Burkett enhances its desireability and that there's nothing wrong with it. I doubt anyone in the market for this card would be unaware of the restoration, even 50 years from now. It's fairly well known that there is only one of these, and Andy has made no secret of what he's doing.

But I'm not sure the restoration increases the value that much. To me, the value should be equal to the value of the unrestored card plus the cost of the restoration. If I was willing to pay (just for the sake of argument) $50K for Andy's restored card, and he un-did the restoration, I should still be willing to pay $50K minus the cost of restoration, and then pay for the restoration myself.

Paul

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Posted By: Julie

Spaulding's holding the ball behind George Wright; I promised I'd stop posting the Ramly Burkett. Last time.
(Dreadful scan of the woodcut; they hate being shrunk--it's a big one.)

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

NOTHING wrong with a good Burkett scan!!



ANDY: I forgot that your "Just So" had already been trimmed. Given that situation, I agree 100% that there is nothing wrong with restoring it ... as long as nobody ever tries to pass it off as the "real thing."

By the way ... I know NOTHING about restoring a card...

but I assume this is something that SGC and PSA would pick up in an instant??

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Posted By: Brian H (misunderestimated)

The HOF calssifies Spalding as an Executive/Pioneer (as they do with both Wright brothers and Candy Cummings). His HOF plaque reads:
ALBERT GOODWILL SPALDING
ORGANIZATIONAL GENIUS OF BASEBALL'S
PIONEER DAYS. STAR PITCHER OF FOREST
CITY CLUB IN LATE 1860'S, 4-YEAR
CHAMPION BOSTONS 1871 - 1875 AND
MANAGER-PITCHER OF CHAMPION
CHICAGOS IN NATIONAL LEAGUE'S FIRST
YEAR. CHICAGO PRESIDENT FOR 10
YEARS. ORGANIZER OF BASEBALL'S FIRST
ROUND-THE-WORLD TOUR IN 1888.

(it never mentions that Spalding's skills as a businessman/competitor effectively quashed the Player's Legaur Revolt of 1890 or that he was the driving force behind the promotion of the "Doubleday Myth).

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Posted By: Andy Baran

Hal,

Restoring a card is very easy. You just take it to a paper restoration company (the baseball card restorers are hacks), tell them what you want, they give you an estimate, then you write them a check. Very easy.

Remember, they are combining 2 cards to make 1. I'm would hope that any of the grading companies, any knowledgeable collector, and any collector willing to spend the kind of money it would take to get the card, would all be able to tell that the card was restored (on close inspection). I am hoping that one of the grading companies will ultimately be willing to slab the card as authentic (which it most certainly is) - for the long term protection of the card. I'm not trying to fool anyone, or I wouldn't be so open about it here. However, my main purpose is to make the card look as nice as possible, which is why I am not willing to do anything to it to make it look obviously restored. Restoration ain't cheap if you want it done correctly.

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Posted By: Julie

Nor do I disapprove of his restoring the only example of a Just So Burkett. Instead of being "The only Just So Burkett--trimmed," it will be "the only Just So Burkett--restored." I'm anxious to see it!

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Andy:

With a card as rare as the one we are discussing...

I would think that SGC would JUMP at the chance to slab it as:

"Authentic - Restored"

I agree 100% that the slabbing would be HUGE for two reasons: Protection and Authentification

Call me once it's slabbed!!

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Of course, to retain any semblance of "leverage" in possible future negotiations...

I must make it clear that I think the value of any restored card is only about $5.00.

But Andy, since I like you so much, I might be willing to go a "wee bit" higher.

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Posted By: runscott

If they don't notice the restoration, then it never happened. But don't send it to SGC - they pay attention to this board and might look at the card more closely.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Only because I think SGC should start doing this for ALL vintage cards.

I think they SHOULD slab cards that have problems (coloring, trimming, restoration, rebacking, etc.) ... and they SHOULD state the nature of the problem right there on the label.

This would HELP the hobby in several ways.

These cards would get slabbed and protected from the elements.

These cards would get "authenticated" as part of the slabbing process, so future buyers would be protected.

These card would have their problems "documented" so that future buyers are protected.

These cards would get entered into the PSA or SGC "pop reports" so that all of us will know how many of them exist.


I, for one, am HOPING for a day where EVERY vintage card in existence is slabbed and accounted for by whatever grading company is the best with vintage cards (probably SGC).

Then ALL of us will know what is out there...

and we will never again have to hear that a certain card is "thought to be only one of two known to exist" on EVERY item in every auction.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I will probably get crucified for being so stupid and not knowing the answer...

buy why are these old drawings always called "wood cuts"??

Did they cut them into a block of wood and then use the wood as a "printing press" or "stamp"??

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Posted By: runscott

but now it's become apparent that the grading companies can't necessarily detect alterations.

So by slabbing a card as "restored", slab collectors will believe even more so that the ones without the "restored" designation have not been restored...and we all know that isn't the case.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Certainly a valid point, Scott.

My whole premise entirely assumes that the graders would be "top-notch" experts... and it sounds like maybe this isn't the case.

Do we know of some "restored cards" that are getting graded?

Was that what all the furor was about a few weeks ago about a red Cobb card that Greg had sold to someone? If so, I don't need to re-open all the hullabaloo...

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Posted By: runscott

I brain-washed myself about three weeks ago and can't even remember why. I must have missed that discussion.

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Posted By: Julie

engravings made with hand-held tools. They should properly be called "wood engravings", not woodcuts. See VCBC #14.
So much for "these drawings." I have 8 or 9 of them, and they are way underpiced.
A woodcut, NOT a wood engraving, is carved into wood with the intention of inking the wood with differentr, often very bright colors, and the woodblock print is not complete until the colors-and-lines are transferred to a piece of paper. They can be re-colored numerous times--in fact, until the lines cut in the wood wear out. Thus, no two woodcuts are exactly the same--they are either brighter or paler, or with slightkly different colors than the rest of the same design. Harper's wood engraving:

Japanese woodblock print (with an extra spot on her nose--sorry):

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Posted By: Paul

I'm going to ask my question again, and hopefully not sound like I'm whining. How could cards as significant as these escape notice for so long?

Also, a related question. How rare are G&Bs generally? I thought there were about 5-10 of each known. Are they actually rarer than this? Are there some that have been catalogued for a long time that are believed to be one-of-a-kind? If not, does that suggest that there could be more Spaldings and Reaches hiding out there somewhere?

Thanks.

Paul

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Posted By: Andy Baran

Paul,

I believe that the scarcity is all over the board, though I doubt that there are more than 10 of any 1 card out there. There are quite a few 1 of a kind cards in the set (1 known, but possibly more out there). The Spalding and Reach cards fall into that category. There could be others out there, but it is likely that they are unique.

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Posted By: Paul

Thanks Andy.

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Posted By: david

i think g and b's fall into three levels of scarcity- the why bother you will never own one so why even try (1-2 examples), the you see them in mastro and wouldnt it be nice to own one(5-10) and the maybe some day category (10-15) this puts them about a little tougher then the oj spotted ties which in general fall into the maybe some day category. for the most part though i think that yum yums are a little tougher and fall into the middle category. of course with g and b's there are the two types for some cards, which if you are worying about those make it much much more difficult

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Posted By: Julie

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Posted By: Paul

I always thought the portraits in the G&B set were real photos, and the action shots and poses were line drawings. But the Spalding and Reach look like line drawing portraits. Are there any others like this, or am I reading too much into a light scan?

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Posted By: Andy Baran

The Spalding and Reach are line drawings. I also thought that all of the portraits were photos. I'm not sure if there are any other line drawing portraits.

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Posted By: Richard Masson

Other line drawing portraits in G&B set:
Von Der Ahe, Bushong, McInnis, Latham, Robinson, Sullivan, Comisky, Welch, Carruthers, O'Neill, Nicoll, Barkley....those are all I know of.

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Posted By: Paul

Here's what the Hall of Fame had to say about the Spalding's election. I had asked whether Spalding was elected as a "pioneer" or an "executive". The answer is not very informative, but it seems pretty clear that his role as an executive was at least part of the reason for his selection.

"The Hall of Famers were listed under the categories for which they were inducted. For example Tommy Lasorda was inducted for his accomplishments as a manager, not for his accomplishments as an executive or player. Albert Spalding was inducted for his contributions to the game as an executive/pioneer of the game, not for his accomplishments as a pitcher. Please see the link below for more information."

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Yeah ... but he would NEVER have been named "Manager" if he hadn't been a great pitcher ...

so I am sticking with my position that the following Pioneers were inducted in SOME PART because of their playing skills in the very early days of Baseball:

Al Spalding
George Wright
Harry Wright
Candy Cummings

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Posted By: hankron

I've never owned one or seen one in person, but aren't the G & B and Yum Yum cards with drawings actually photographs of drawings? If so, they are simultaniously sketches and real photos.