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  #301  
Old 07-10-2019, 03:50 PM
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Yes, thanks Peter, for posting that... It’s about as damning as evidence gets. I see no way that PWCC can survive this, assuming law enforcement is even somewhat monitoring this. The evidence looks irrefutable.

They ruined some truly great cards in that particular submission. And why the hell is PSA passing these cards, when over half of the submission is deemed altered? Even the most elementary system should’ve raised 15 red flags.
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  #302  
Old 07-10-2019, 03:56 PM
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Yeah separate and apart from Brent and PWCC, I have often wondered why at some point if they are seeing too many altered cards in a submission they don't just punt the whole submission back, note well who the submitter is, and ban the submitter or put future subs under special scrutiny. I don't know what goes on at that company.
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  #303  
Old 07-10-2019, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Yeah separate and apart from Brent and PWCC, I have often wondered why at some point if they are seeing too many altered cards in a submission they don't just punt the whole submission back, note well who the submitter is, and ban the submitter or put future subs under special scrutiny. I don't know what goes on at that company.
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  #304  
Old 07-10-2019, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth
Yeah separate and apart from Brent and PWCC, I have often wondered why at some point if they are seeing too many altered cards in a submission they don't just punt the whole submission back, note well who the submitter is, and ban the submitter or put future subs under special scrutiny. I don't know what goes on at that company.

[quote=Exhibitman;1897667]Money, sonny. Everything is about money.

Arnold Rothstein: What's the secret of America? MONEY! Everything is MONEY, Charlie.


So, they don't ban the person outright, but let them continue to submit. The TPG does however, put that person's submissions under extra special scrutiny (double-secret probation?). That way, the TPG still gets their money, even though they're sending the cards back to the person, ungraded/unslabbed.

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  #305  
Old 07-10-2019, 06:48 PM
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[quote=Steve D;1897703]Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth
Yeah separate and apart from Brent and PWCC, I have often wondered why at some point if they are seeing too many altered cards in a submission they don't just punt the whole submission back, note well who the submitter is, and ban the submitter or put future subs under special scrutiny. I don't know what goes on at that company.

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Money, sonny. Everything is about money.

Arnold Rothstein: What's the secret of America? MONEY! Everything is MONEY, Charlie.


So, they don't ban the person outright, but let them continue to submit. The TPG does however, put that person's submissions under extra special scrutiny (double-secret probation?). That way, the TPG still gets their money, even though they're sending the cards back to the person, ungraded/unslabbed.

Steve
Private speculation or should I say what if they submit cards in holders which the graders can recognize. Then they get stuff passed/bumped and the graders gets a special thank you at a later date.
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Last edited by BeanTown; 07-10-2019 at 08:37 PM. Reason: Better wording than Rumorville
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  #306  
Old 07-10-2019, 07:27 PM
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[quote=BeanTown;1897712]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve D View Post
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth
Yeah separate and apart from Brent and PWCC, I have often wondered why at some point if they are seeing too many altered cards in a submission they don't just punt the whole submission back, note well who the submitter is, and ban the submitter or put future subs under special scrutiny. I don't know what goes on at that company.



Rumorville has it that they submit cards in holders which the graders can recognize. Then they get stuff passed/bumped and the graders gets a special thank you at a later date.
Wow - now we have hit bottom.
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  #307  
Old 07-10-2019, 07:37 PM
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[quote=wondo;1897726]
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Originally Posted by BeanTown View Post

Wow - now we have hit bottom.
How? not sure exactly what you are referring to so figured I would ask.
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  #308  
Old 07-10-2019, 07:52 PM
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My comment was a reaction to jay cee gossiping about totally corruption. “Rumorville”? Either there is some evidence of that activity or the post is irresponsible.
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  #309  
Old 07-10-2019, 07:59 PM
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My comment was a reaction to jay cee gossiping about totally corruption. “Rumorville”? Either there is some evidence of that activity or the post is irresponsible.
That is what I though but figured I would ask. I somewhat agree with you at calling them out without proof. Could be a fact and he is not at liberty to give up his source.

My problem is could the graders really be that completely incompetent. If so how the hell does someone that worthless at their job keep it.
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  #310  
Old 07-10-2019, 08:08 PM
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If so how the hell does someone that worthless at their job keep it.
If they suspended or fired the graders that have graded all those submissions in the threads, they might not have anyone left? Are they researching which graders reviewed all of those submissions? I don't know.

They are unwilling to tell, so far, if they are Incompetent or Involved.
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  #311  
Old 07-10-2019, 08:34 PM
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A quick search shows PSA is currently seeking new graders. One of their bullets struck me as odd. "Sharing knowledge to help improve skill of PSA Grading Team" My first thought was they want new people to come in and help show them HOW to grade. You would think that PSA would have a training program and teach everyone how to be subjective and do it the same way everytime.

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  #312  
Old 07-10-2019, 08:45 PM
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It also says “Maintain quality of grading product” - not advance or improve. They must be confident in their current product.

Both Bulletpoint descriptions are fodder. To nitpick, dissect or assign meaning to either is silly.
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Last edited by wondo; 07-10-2019 at 08:47 PM.
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  #313  
Old 07-10-2019, 08:46 PM
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Remember, they are also having a "try your skills at grading" competition at the National. And according to their radio show this afternoon, you should expect there to be some counterfeits and/or altered cards within the cards you're supposed to grade.
Winner gets $1000, and maybe a callback?
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  #314  
Old 07-10-2019, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
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It also says “Maintain quality of grading product” - not advance or improve. They must be confident in their current product.

Both Bulletpoint descriptions are fodder. To nitpick, dissect or assign meaning to either is silly.
Other than how obsessed they are with "production goals" mentioning it twice.

Overall I'd be more concerned with getting things right over "production goals"
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  #315  
Old 07-10-2019, 09:01 PM
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And why do you need strong verbal communication skills? You are being hired because you have great eyes and know how to grade behind the curtain or closed doors which the public never sees. Not sure how having strong verbal skills helps grading other than them being popular among other graders in the back during break time.
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Last edited by BeanTown; 07-10-2019 at 09:02 PM.
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  #316  
Old 07-10-2019, 09:20 PM
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Remember, they are also having a "try your skills at grading" competition at the National. And according to their radio show this afternoon, you should expect there to be some counterfeits and/or altered cards within the cards you're supposed to grade.
Winner gets $1000, and maybe a callback?
Riiiight. Because PSA would obviously know. That has been proven beyond a doubt lately.
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  #317  
Old 07-10-2019, 09:24 PM
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The better gimmick would be to put the graders' skills on display.
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  #318  
Old 07-10-2019, 09:35 PM
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The better gimmick would be to put the graders' skills on display.
I would suggest that is absolutely what PSA doesn't want to do.
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  #319  
Old 07-10-2019, 09:36 PM
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I would suggest that is absolutely what PSA doesn't want to do.
I couldn't find the sarcasm font.
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  #320  
Old 07-10-2019, 09:59 PM
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Money, sonny. Everything is about money.

Arnold Rothstein: What's the secret of America? MONEY! Everything is MONEY, Charlie.

Yeah but a bad faith clause where they get to keep the money would solve that. To me it's incompetence from executive decision making, down to peon graders.
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  #321  
Old 07-10-2019, 10:43 PM
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Hi everyone. There's a great scene in the movie Margin Call where Risk Analyst Peter Sullivan (played by Zachary Quinto) tells CEO John Tuld (played by Jeremy Irons) that if the company's assets of mortgage-backed securities were to drop by just 25% and remain on the books, that loss would be greater than the current market capitalization of the entire company.

With that in mind, I wonder if PSA were to pay out on their guarantee on every single altered card, if that payout would be greater than CLTC’s current market capitalization of $217M. Based on what I have read here and on Blowout Cards, I’m not confident it would not.
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  #322  
Old 07-11-2019, 10:00 AM
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Hi everyone. There's a great scene in the movie Margin Call where Risk Analyst Peter Sullivan (played by Zachary Quinto) tells CEO John Tuld (played by Jeremy Irons) that if the company's assets of mortgage-backed securities were to drop by just 25% and remain on the books, that loss would be greater than the current market capitalization of the entire company.

With that in mind, I wonder if PSA were to pay out on their guarantee on every single altered card, if that payout would be greater than CLTC’s current market capitalization of $217M. Based on what I have read here and on Blowout Cards, I’m not confident it would not.
But they aren't paying on the guarantee. They've successfully deflected the responsibility back on the sellers, reducing their liability.

For example, card graded A =200 graded 5= 1000 graded 6= 2000

Instead of paying the owner 1800 for a card altered from a 5 to a 6, they have them return it, and maybe pay the scammer 800. Unless they have some excuse to not pay the seller, perhaps referring them back up the chain to whoever altered it who they probably don't have to pay.

Brilliant, but scummy.
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  #323  
Old 07-11-2019, 01:18 PM
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But they aren't paying on the guarantee. They've successfully deflected the responsibility back on the sellers, reducing their liability.

For example, card graded A =200 graded 5= 1000 graded 6= 2000

Instead of paying the owner 1800 for a card altered from a 5 to a 6, they have them return it, and maybe pay the scammer 800. Unless they have some excuse to not pay the seller, perhaps referring them back up the chain to whoever altered it who they probably don't have to pay.

Brilliant, but scummy.
I think it is brilliant also. The problem is like we seen on here with the T3 Cobb and Dan McKee. If the sale wasn't through eBay and recent enough for eBay/PayPal to force a refund the cards owner is out of other options. With private sales and older sales the seller just tells the buyer to pound sand.
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  #324  
Old 07-11-2019, 02:06 PM
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Unless they have some excuse to not pay the seller, perhaps referring them back up the chain to whoever altered it who they probably don't have to pay.

I think that's the strategy because it's a violation of their TOS to knowingly submit altered cards. So, if they can push the refunds back to the submitter, they won't have to pay anything.
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  #325  
Old 07-11-2019, 04:59 PM
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Class action suit will follow...
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  #326  
Old 07-11-2019, 06:51 PM
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Class action suit will follow...
We can only hope...
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  #327  
Old 07-12-2019, 05:51 PM
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Joe D turns over a new Leaf.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4137
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  #328  
Old 07-12-2019, 09:14 PM
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Mercy another whitewashed Leaf Jackie graded by SGC.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4141
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  #329  
Old 07-12-2019, 11:05 PM
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But they aren't paying on the guarantee. They've successfully deflected the responsibility back on the sellers, reducing their liability.

For example, card graded A =200 graded 5= 1000 graded 6= 2000

Instead of paying the owner 1800 for a card altered from a 5 to a 6, they have them return it, and maybe pay the scammer 800. Unless they have some excuse to not pay the seller, perhaps referring them back up the chain to whoever altered it who they probably don't have to pay.

Brilliant, but scummy.
And there's a very simple solution - stop buying graded cards. Period. Full stop. Never buy another graded card in your life. And you will solve this problem.

But no one will do that.

So PSA, Moser and PWCC will win.
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  #330  
Old 07-13-2019, 01:10 AM
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And there's a very simple solution - stop buying graded cards. Period. Full stop. Never buy another graded card in your life. And you will solve this problem.

But no one will do that.

So PSA, Moser and PWCC will win.
I understand the sentiment, but the statement that card alterations would disappear if we stopped buying graded cards- is wishful thinking at best.

Last edited by Stonepony; 07-13-2019 at 01:43 AM.
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  #331  
Old 07-13-2019, 03:55 AM
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You know what's really interesting (for me, anyway)? I like that card better as a 1 Poor. Has more character. The doctoring really sucked the life out of it.
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  #332  
Old 07-13-2019, 06:58 AM
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And there's a very simple solution - stop buying graded cards. Period. Full stop. Never buy another graded card in your life. And you will solve this problem.

But no one will do that.

So PSA, Moser and PWCC will win.
That’s correct and you and I both know this will never happen....people are gonna have to accept the fact the industry is loaded with fraud and manipulation or move on and find a new hobby to be passionate about it’s sad.....to many people are making money so they keep hush....
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  #333  
Old 07-13-2019, 07:49 AM
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Class action suit will follow...
Oh a civil lawsuit?
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  #334  
Old 07-13-2019, 07:50 AM
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I understand the sentiment, but the statement that card alterations would disappear if we stopped buying graded cards- is wishful thinking at best.
It will go down drastically as the easy money incentive with disappear.
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  #335  
Old 07-13-2019, 07:53 AM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
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Mercy another whitewashed Leaf Jackie graded by SGC.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4141
another on the 5k or more profit list.
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  #336  
Old 07-13-2019, 01:23 PM
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I understand the sentiment, but the statement that card alterations would disappear if we stopped buying graded cards- is wishful thinking at best.
True- alterations will never disappear, but would definitely be lessened to a large degree. The risk/reward payoff for card doctors and corrupt dealers would take a giant hit. The reason that Moser and others are doing this in such huge volume, is attributed to the huge paybacks they receive for a single numerical bump. Without the grading insanity, their ROI would be a fraction of what they are currently getting by manipulating the TPGs.

In addition, collectors would pay a hell of a lot less for any mistakes made than they're paying now. The current situation is simply "minting" tons of money for Doctors, Dealers and the TPGs. Perhaps it's time that the balance of power shifted away from them, and back to the collector.
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  #337  
Old 07-13-2019, 06:27 PM
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And there's a very simple solution - stop buying graded cards. Period. Full stop. Never buy another graded card in your life. And you will solve this problem.

But no one will do that.

So PSA, Moser and PWCC will win.
I've bought very few. probably under 20. I have sent some to SGC to be graded, but not for a while.
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  #338  
Old 07-13-2019, 06:45 PM
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Default Cleaned T206 SGC Young in current PWCC

Grade unchanged, but apparent stain removal, same National submission as cards previously identified as cleaned, a Leaf Jackie and a CJ Joe Jackson.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1306000
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