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Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Postwar Sportscard Forums > Watercooler Talk- ALL sports talk

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  #1  
Old 05-09-2017, 11:10 AM
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Default Most overlooked active player?

Because the relative newness of Closers in the game I think Craig Kimbrel may be the most overlooked active players.

With talk about Trevor Hoffman going into the HOF soon after a 74% this last voting cycle and Mariano Rivera considered a sure thing it is interesting that possible future HOF Kimbrel gets little notice. I understand he only is in his 8th season, but his stats are impressive.

He already has 266 saves. He averages 42 saves per season. His SV:SVO is .911. His batting average against is .156 (not a single season over .185) with a 0.93 WHIP. Compare that to the the future "HOF".

Rivera
652 saves over 18 seasons (excluding first season when used as starter)
39 save 162 game avg
SV:SVO .891
BAA .211
WHIP 1.00

Hoffman
601 saves over 18 seasons
39 save 162 game avg
SV:SVO .888
BAA .211
WHIP 1.06

Even if Kimbrel's saves average goes down to match the 39 saves of Rivera and Hoffman and plays another 10 years he would still retire 4 years earlier than Rivera with more saves. Obviously, as is with any active player, anything can happen to derail the career, but as of now he may be better than the top 2 HOF candidates.

Last edited by bn2cardz; 05-11-2017 at 10:12 AM.
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  #2  
Old 05-09-2017, 11:37 AM
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I'll nominate Chase Utley. He was an excellent defender, with strong on-base skills, and more power than you expect from a second baseman. He doesn't really have a shot at the hall of fame, but that says more about the hall's election process than it does about Utley. They're good at recognizing players with a strong defining characteristic (think Ryan and strikeouts) but bad at recognizing players who are all-around contributors without some particular thing that really stands out.
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  #3  
Old 05-09-2017, 11:56 AM
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I'm going with Robinson Cano. Name another second baseman who has the offensive punch he does. Name another second baseman with the arm he has. I watched the guy play second every day for the Yankees for years. He is incredible out there.
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  #4  
Old 05-09-2017, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nat View Post
I'll nominate Chase Utley. He was an excellent defender, with strong on-base skills, and more power than you expect from a second baseman. He doesn't really have a shot at the hall of fame, but that says more about the hall's election process than it does about Utley. They're good at recognizing players with a strong defining characteristic (think Ryan and strikeouts) but bad at recognizing players who are all-around contributors without some particular thing that really stands out.
Good candidate. I think going against him, also, is playing at the same time as Cano. Utley has the better defensive numbers, but offense is weighted higher. I believe Utley is very comparable to Lou Whitaker, if Lou can't make it in then Utley won't either.
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  #5  
Old 05-09-2017, 12:18 PM
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Just wondering why you think Utley is a better defender than Cano? I've seen Cano make throws that no one else could make. He's got a third basemen's arm at second. He also has Gold Gloves whereas Utley does not.
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  #6  
Old 05-09-2017, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by packs View Post
Just wondering why you think Utley is a better defender than Cano? I've seen Cano make throws that no one else could make. He's got a third basemen's arm at second. He also has Gold Gloves whereas Utley does not.
If you notice I said defensive numbers, but I admittedly was stating that exclusively off of dWAR. The more I look through the raw numbers, though, I do see that I am confused by Utley having the higher dWAR as in less seasons Cano has more assists, PO, and double plays turned. I am in an NL baseball area (St. Louis) and therefor admittedly have seen very little of Cano and can't speak to his play from experience.

I have heard more about Cano and still would stick by my thinking that Utley is in his shadow and will have the same fate as Lou Whitaker because of it.

Last edited by bn2cardz; 05-09-2017 at 12:32 PM.
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  #7  
Old 05-09-2017, 01:08 PM
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Defensive WAR is such a scam stat. Don Mattingly is listed as a below Replacement level fielder by that statistic.

According to that statistic, Jason Giambi fumbling the ball all over the infield has nearly the same value as Don Mattingly scooping 4 balls out of the dirt per game, starting double plays from the 1st base position and making it seem routine, and leading the league at his position in Range Factor and Fielding % for the better part of his career.

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  #8  
Old 05-10-2017, 04:17 PM
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Big fan of Beltre... I think he has a legit shot. Cano as well

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  #9  
Old 05-10-2017, 07:10 PM
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Lots of excellent choices.
I'm going with Nick Markakis, hits, average, doubles, great right fielder.
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  #10  
Old 05-10-2017, 08:29 PM
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My favorite thing about Pence is that he looks like he's composed entirely out of elbows. What he does works, but man does he look awkward doing it.
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  #11  
Old 05-11-2017, 07:12 AM
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Raymond 'Robbie' Culpepper
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Default Speaking of Hunter Pence:

This is a scouting report from some years past. Not sure if it is authentic or not, but it is a great read. Enjoy!

Chicago White Sox
Free Agent Player Prospect
Personal Information

SCOUTING REPORT

HUNTER PENCE

PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION:
Gangly. Runs like a rotary telephone thrown into a running clothes dryer. Throws like an effete Frenchman throwing a bookcase uphill. Swings a bat like his elbows are stapled to his knees and his underwear is pulled over his head. Stares at you when you’re not looking.

STRENGTH:
He…he actually does everything well. Ball jumps off bat. Good speed both from home to first and around the bases. Strong, accurarte arm. Should hit for both average and power.

WEAKNESS:
Overly aggressive at the plate. Gets into too many bad counts and susceptible to breaking balls away. Puts whispers into your head, inviting you to become one with his people before the coming encroachment, breaking down your will and autonomy by replacing your thoughts with a one word mantra of ‘JOIN, JOIN, JOIN’ until you break down, sobbing, a shell of yourself looking to become wholly reborn within his protection. Takes the occasional bad break on fly balls.

SUMMATION:
Please consider this my 30-day notice. I doubt my ability to do this job properly anymore. I doubt my ability to scout baseball players effectively. I doubt my ability to sleep when I close my eyes. I doubt. I doubt. Oh God, how I doubt.

QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ QQQQQQQQQQQQQ
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Last edited by clydepepper; 05-11-2017 at 07:13 AM.
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  #12  
Old 05-11-2017, 07:33 AM
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Here's the link to 'Four Lost Scouting Reports':

http://www.sbnation.com/2013/5/9/431...ce-derek-jeter
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  #13  
Old 05-22-2017, 06:45 PM
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Big Jake Lamb fan

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  #14  
Old 05-27-2017, 09:48 AM
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Default Blackmon

Maybe people are hearing about Charlie Blackmon now?
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  #15  
Old 05-31-2017, 07:44 AM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by familytoad View Post
Maybe people are hearing about Charlie Blackmon now?
Crazy overrated, and frankly a little suspicious, guys don't usually hit their peak at 29-30 years old. Forget that for a moment though, until he tests hot let's just assume he is a very late bloomer.

He is hitting .270 on the road with zero HR's this year, tell me again Coors Field isn't ludicrous. If you think that's too small a sample size for his career he's a .339 hitter at home and a .262 hitter on the road. OBP .393 vs .304, Slugging .528 vs .423. Do I want him on my fantasy team? Sure do, even more so if I can platoon him. Do I want him on my favorite team? Hell no.

Arenado's 2017 splits are actually pretty equal, but when you look at the career numbers he too comes crashing back to earth. Avg .306/.264 OBP .354/.311 and SLG .578/.468 So he's still a decent player away from Coors, but nowhere near the stud he is when he's home.

Until they figure out a way to normalize Coors (they claim to have done so a few times over the years, the evidence doesn't back them up) it's going to be hard to take any Rockies stats seriously.
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  #16  
Old 05-31-2017, 08:06 AM
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Corey Dickerson was able to make the transition. He's having a pretty ridiculous year so far for Tampa Bay after leaving Coors.
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  #17  
Old 05-31-2017, 09:15 PM
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Default Ballpark advantages

Many great players have had favorable home park advantages since the beginning of the live ball era.

That's not to say a player is good/bad or indifferent, it's what he's faced with.

The Rockies players certainly have to deal with the perception that their home park somehow diminishes their accomplishments.
Seems they get penalized for their home park, but good hitting parks have always existed.
Polo Grounds, Right field in Yankee stadium, Fenway short distance fences, Baker Bowl, old Tiger Stadium, Houston's Minute Maid , Arizona's Chase field and dozens more both modern and vintage...

Sometimes it works in reverse, Dodgers parks ( for just one example ) sure tend to make LA pitchers look better...yet that advantage seems to not be important to compare historical or statistical discussion. Are all the Dodgers award winning pitchers exactly the same on the road?

I think it is what it is...if all you have to do to get great stats is to play for the Rockies everyone should be doing it.

Back to Blackmon.
He can run, hit,throw and field. Precious few players do that anymore. The 3 game series I watched recently was in Phoenix and he didn't hit a home run. He was clearly the most complete player on the field. Pollock was a close second. I don't know what other ballpark these teams should have been playing in , but even though they are both hitters parks, I didn't dismiss their talents. In game three, the score was 0-0 after 12 innings, Blackmon finished 0-6 and I still saw him as the best player.

Full disclosure, I don't have Charlie on my fantasy team, I am not a Rockies fan either.
I live for the deplorable Phillies.
I have been an avid baseball fan since I was a 8 yr old in 1970. I have read a hundred Baseball books about older players. I don't think less of Mel Ott or even Sandy Koufax for accomplishing what they did in their era or their ballpark. It just " is what it is " for me!
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  #18  
Old 06-01-2017, 08:49 AM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by packs View Post
Corey Dickerson was able to make the transition. He's having a pretty ridiculous year so far for Tampa Bay after leaving Coors.
So you're going to ignore the full season in which he hit .245 in favor of the less than 1/3 of a season where he's tearing it up? Call me at the end of the season, at least, maybe after the end of two good seasons in a row before I'm a believer.


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Of course there's a noticeable home advantage in many parks, and lots of players perform better at home, but Coors is a different beast entirely. It's not just the power numbers either. How many .280 hitters became batting champs at Coors? They moved the outfield walls out due to the thin air, so there is a ton more room for balls to drop in for hits. Historically nothing like the consistent disparate home/away splits exist in any park to the ridiculous degree they are present at Coors.
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Last edited by Aquarian Sports Cards; 06-01-2017 at 11:49 AM.
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  #19  
Old 05-31-2017, 05:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EldoEsq View Post
Big Jake Lamb fan

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Agree, i draft him every year on my fantasy team
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Old 05-30-2017, 09:43 PM
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Nolan Arenado, shared Home Run title, 3 straight Gold Glove Awards. I still hear people say, (Who Is He). Put him on a big market team, everyone would know him.
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  #21  
Old 05-31-2017, 04:19 AM
howard38 howard38 is offline
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Blackmon and Arenado are both outstanding but, fair or not, Rockies hitters will seldom get much recognition because of the park they play in.
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