Jacob deGrom most Ks in first 200 games

[Peter_Spaeth]

How far are we from the day some middle reliever wins?

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How far are we from the day some middle reliever wins?

If they were in the right role and were used enough, I could see someone like Garrett Whitlock or Devin Williams winning at some point.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How far are we from the day some middle reliever wins?

If they're dominant enough, I don't see why not.

He didn't really come close to winning it, but Mariano did finish 3rd in the Cy Young voting in 1996, the year before he became the Yankees closer.

Another interesting tidbit looking at Mariano's record. The year he came in 2nd place for the Cy Young as a closer in 2005, the award was won by Bartolo Colon, who happened to win 21 games for the Angels. Johan Santana finished 3rd while pitching more innings then Colon, and having a superior season in just about every other way. In today's climate he likely wins the Cy Young going away.

He should arguably have 3 Cy Young awards in his pocket...along with a pitching triple crown, a Gold Glove, 3 ERA titles, 3 Strikeout Titles, 4 WHIP titles, and a whole bunch of other bolded black ink marks on his baseball reference page. Many, many more then Degrom.

Santana pitched about 800 innings more then Degrom has at this point, and his career was deemed too short apparently, by the HOF voters. Santana was kicked off the ballot after his first year of eligibility.

I mention this because Santana seems the closest comparison career wise to me regarding Degraom, even though they had different paths to get where they got to during their careers.

Both electric, both great pitchers, and both will eventually be thought of more highly then many pitchers who will get into or are already in the HOF.

[packs]

What do you consider Sparky Lyle to be? I mean, sure, he saved 26 games the year he won the Cy Young, but he also pitched in 72 games total, starting none, and threw 137 innings. Obviously he was being used in a hybrid role and while I can't tell from looking at baseball Reference, I would bet a lot of those saves were of the three inning variety.

Same goes for Mike Marshall. He started zero games, had 21 saves, but he appeared in 106 games and threw over 200 innings the year he won. That's not a middle reliever?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

What do you consider Sparky Lyle to be? I mean, sure, he saved 26 games the year he won the Cy Young, but he also pitched in 72 games total, starting none, and threw 137 innings. Obviously he was being used in a hybrid role and while I can't tell from looking at baseball Reference, I would bet a lot of those saves were of the three inning variety.

Same goes for Mike Marshall. He started zero games, had 21 saves, but he appeared in 106 games and threw over 200 innings the year he won. That's not a middle reliever?

Mike Marshall’s 21 saves led the entire league. The #2 guy had only 15. Lyle was 2nd in the league in saves. It was a different time and relievers were used very differently, but Marshall is pretty clearly more comparable to the closer role, as was Lyle.

[packs]

Closer role in the sense that he got saves and finished games but clearly not solely responsible for doing that. He pitched in over 100 games and threw 200 innings but only recorded 21 saves.

This SABR article has some interesting information on Marshall's season as well. It notes that under modern rules Marshall would have been credited with 30 saves that season, and that he only converted 64 percent of his save opportunities, which would be pretty poor for an out and out closer.

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/mike-marshall/

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

Closer role in the sense that he got saves and finished games but clearly not solely responsible for doing that. He pitched in over 100 games and threw 200 innings but only recorded 21 saves.

This SABR article has some interesting information on Marshall's season as well. It notes that under modern rules Marshall would have been credited with 30 saves that season, and that he only converted 64 percent of his save opportunities, which would be pretty poor for an out and out closer.

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/mike-marshall/

If your argument was that closers did not exist back then, you might have a point. To argue that closers in the current sense did not exist back then, and therefore Marshall and Lyle were middle relievers, is illogical.

[packs]

What I'm saying is that he finished games and got saves but he was clearly not solely a closer. I can't tell how many innings he would pitch or when looking at Baseball Reference but the SABR article illustrates he was not very good at getting saves when he had the opportunity. It seems like he was much better in other capacities, which is what I'm trying to point out. I don't think he won the Cy Young that year because he led the league in saves.

I think he won the Cy Young because of his volume usage, which is not something you associate with closers and you will never see a closer throw 200 innings or appear in 100 plus games. You WILL see a middle relief pitcher appear in a huge number of games and throw a large amount of innings.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

If your argument was that closers did not exist back then, you might have a point. To argue that closers in the current sense did not exist back then, and therefore Marshall and Lyle were middle relievers, is illogical.

Weren't Lyle and Gossage considered closers AT THE TIME? Or is that an after the fact gloss?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by packs

Closer role in the sense that he got saves and finished games but clearly not solely responsible for doing that. He pitched in over 100 games and threw 200 innings but only recorded 21 saves.

This SABR article has some interesting information on Marshall's season as well. It notes that under modern rules Marshall would have been credited with 30 saves that season, and that he only converted 64 percent of his save opportunities, which would be pretty poor for an out and out closer.

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/mike-marshall/

lot easier to blow a 2 or 3 inning save than a one inning save. I'm no mathematician, but probably two to three times easier...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

lot easier to blow a 2 or 3 inning save than a one inning save. I'm no mathematician, but probably two to three times easier...

I bet that isn't true. Among other things, it's more likely YOUR team would score in two innings than in one.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

What do you consider Sparky Lyle to be? I mean, sure, he saved 26 games the year he won the Cy Young, but he also pitched in 72 games total, starting none, and threw 137 innings. Obviously he was being used in a hybrid role and while I can't tell from looking at baseball Reference, I would bet a lot of those saves were of the three inning variety.

Same goes for Mike Marshall. He started zero games, had 21 saves, but he appeared in 106 games and threw over 200 innings the year he won. That's not a middle reliever?

I consider Lyle, like Gossage, a closer in an era when closers often went a couple of innings or occasionally longer. A middle reliever, in my view, is someone brought in with no expectation that he finish the game, typically in the 3rd to 6th inning?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

If they're dominant enough, I don't see why not.

He didn't really come close to winning it, but Mariano did finish 3rd in the Cy Young voting in 1996, the year before he became the Yankees closer.

Another interesting tidbit looking at Mariano's record. The year he came in 2nd place for the Cy Young as a closer in 2005, the award was won by Bartolo Colon, who happened to win 21 games for the Angels. Johan Santana finished 3rd while pitching more innings then Colon, and having a superior season in just about every other way. In today's climate he likely wins the Cy Young going away.

He should arguably have 3 Cy Young awards in his pocket...along with a pitching triple crown, a Gold Glove, 3 ERA titles, 3 Strikeout Titles, 4 WHIP titles, and a whole bunch of other bolded black ink marks on his baseball reference page. Many, many more then Degrom.

Santana pitched about 800 innings more then Degrom has at this point, and his career was deemed too short apparently, by the HOF voters. Santana was kicked off the ballot after his first year of eligibility.

I mention this because Santana seems the closest comparison career wise to me regarding Degraom, even though they had different paths to get where they got to during their careers.

Both electric, both great pitchers, and both will eventually be thought of more highly then many pitchers who will get into or are already in the HOF.

For all Koufax's supposed unmatched stretch of dominance, his WAR7 isn't much above Santana's. But the more interesting thing is that there are … wait for it … 57 pitchers ahead of Koufax in WAR7.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

For all Koufax's supposed unmatched stretch of dominance, his WAR7 isn't much above Santana's. But the more interesting thing is that there are … wait for it … 57 pitchers ahead of Koufax in WAR7.

We already settled this. Koufax and Ryu are the GOAT lefties.