Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use

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Posted By: Anson

It certainly smells of tabloid tactics. One criminal act doesn't make another right.

However, we can't go back in time now. It's too bad that Bonds looks like he's going to tarnish his image even more (hard to believe that's possible)

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

"...Bonds looks like he's going to tarnish his image even more (hard to believe that's possible)"

Hahahahahahahahahahaha..... that would be difficult...

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

I only read a couple of the posts in this thread an got bored with it but I got curious when I saw there were 251 posts so I thought I'd check it out again.

Is this really a thread where someone said that Sammy Sosa was better than Mickey Mantle?

Probably time for this thread to die.

-Ryan

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Posted By: Brian

Still sounds like a bunch of spin from both sides. Sadly, common sense and the law rarely meet and common sense says that Bonds should not be able profit from the illegally gained performance from the use of steriods/HGH. It shouldn't really matter whether he is the only one to do so. Even if he isn't the only one to commit the crime, you know that he paid well for this advantage. This just leads to more people committing crimes to profit from it.

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Posted By: Jason

Yes Sosa and Palmeiro. Palmeiro had over 500 HRs and over 3000 hits. Also he was more clutch. Now if Mantle would have stayed in better health there would be no question.

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Posted By: David Smith

He loses the first round of his lawsuit and now might not play until opening day. Why is that? Scared of what the public might say or do to him??

On another note, I think Bonds is still juicing. I think his trainer and BALCO cooked up something special just for Bonds other than the clear and the cream. Something only Bonds uses and nobody else. That way, if a test is developed that finds the clear and cream in either urine or blood tests, Bonds can say he is clean. However, the third steroid wont be found and Bonds can set records and get paid the big bucks and not be caught. Just my opinion.

David

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

Can't let this thing die without defending the Mick. How did this thread about steroid boy turn into a Mantle bashing??

"Howard: I never liked Mantle. He always seemed to fail when the chips were down."

Mickey's 18 World Series Homers attests to his ability to come through when it counted. That's a record that will likely never be broken. Speaking of records, Roger Maris batted ahead of Mickey in 1961. I don't think Roger would have hit 61 without Mickey in the on-deck circle.

I don't want to get into a statistic contest here, but I will note that I respect Bill James' HOF stats [black ink, gray ink, HOF standards, HOF monitor]. Mickey is in the top 20 in all 4 categories. [Griffey Jr. is not in the top 30. Harry Heilman is not in the top 40, neither is Palmiero. Kirk Gibson is not even in the top 500.]

Frank

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Posted By: jay behrens

Dave, one serious flaw with your conspiracy theory. There is no way a company is going to spend the money in R&D on a drug for just one athlete. Even Bonds doesn't make enough money to bankroll a personal steroid.

in response to your post in the other thread, I hope your prepared to ban every player from 1990-2003. They are just as guilty as as Bonds. Oh wait, Bonds isn't guilty of anything. And how about those greenie popping drug addicts from the 50s-70s? Do we ban them too and toss them from the HOF because they got an unfair added advantage of that extra "pep" from the special little pill? How many fewer hits, HRs etc would Mays, Aaron, et al have without this wonderful little helper?

Just remember, each record setter has a special set of circumstances that one else got to benifit from. Bonds may have used steroids, but he also face pitchers pumped up on the stuff too. Ruth never had to face juiced pitchers, or pitching specialists that came in the game for a batter or two.

Records are meant to be broken. If Bonds does set the mark, I really doubt it will make Ruth or Aaron's numbers any less significant. The numbers they generated were done under different circumstances and the other may not have been able to duplicate them if they had swapped eras.

so, get over yourself and realize that Bonds' numbers staggering relative to the era that he played in. Everyone else in this era had to face the same condition and most were juiced, so it doesn't diminish what he did. It actually makes it that much more more remarkable since most of the known steroid users have had careers that ended prematurely because their bodies broke down and their skills diminished. Bonds' body is only know starting to seriously breakdown, at age when most top athletes are feelingthis effect regardless of whether theyt used steroids or not.

Jay

WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: Jason

Bonds HR production is not enhanced from steroids like everyone assumes. He is a greatly disciplined hitter. He has probably the best eye in he game.

Jason

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Posted By: Max Weder

Many several posts ago, John Kal posted with a reference to Major League Baseball's drug policy in the early 90s. Here is a link to the policy:

http://www.businessofbaseball.com/docs/1991Memo_Baseballs_Drug_Policy_And_Prevention_Prog ram.pdf

The prohibition mentioned in the June 7, 1991 document applied to "all illegal drugs and controlled substances, including steroid or prescriptions drugs for which the individual in possession of the drug does not have a prescription".

I'm not sure if there were other policy statements that would modified or expand this.

Max

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Jason,

You're being facetious right (about the following statement)?

"Bonds HR production is not enhanced from steroids like everyone assumes. He is a greatly disciplined hitter. He has probably the best eye in he game."

The only reason I say this is because he SUDDENLY became twice as disciplined in a short period of time. HR production numbers of (about) HR/16AB to (about) HR/8AB would make it obvious that he had some type of hitters epiphany of sorts or he just might have started seeing the affects of performance enhancers. I can't recall any player that improved that much over a short period of time (and maintained the improvement). In other words there are flukes and aberations (Brady Anderson's 50 HR season, for example) that last a season but aren't maintained.

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Posted By: jay behrens

The 1991 rule ahs been dicussed on the SABR-l. Basically, the rule was there, but MLB had no desire or intent to enforce the rulle. I wish had some of the posts pointing out how this rule was essentially useless and worthless.

Judge, if you are going to use steroids to explain Bonds late life improvement, thenhow to explain Clemens latelife improvement? Once again, no one wants to takea serious look at St. Roger.

Here are some interesting numbers posted on the SABR-l list:

...performance at an advanced age,...Roger Clemens (best relative ERA of his career at age 42)and Craig Biggio (career high in HRs, HR pct, and HR pct relative to league at age 39 and 2nd highest HR total and 3rd highest HR pct of his career at age 38)

Jay

WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Jay, I figure this is a Bonds thread so that's my comments have been pretty much limited to Bonds. Now, if Clemens was hitting homers at such an improved rate I'm sure I'd try to draw a comparison between the two. Roger still has ZERO homeruns in his career. But just for arguements sake, I don't see vast improvement in Rogers career in the last 5 years or so. Last year he did happen to dip below 2.00 for his ERA (only the second time in his career). His ERA for the last 4 seasons is over 3.00 and his strikeout totals are nothing abnormal. One other comparison is that it doesn't appear that Roger Clemens muscle mass has immensely increased.

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Posted By: jay behrens

You don't need to do the gym work that Bonds does in order to make steroids effective. Bulking up is not going to make Clemens a more effective pitcher, but steroids will allow you get stronger, throw harder, throw faster and come back sooner. the majority of the players that have tested positive for steroids are pitchers, yet they make up roughly 1/3 of the roster. This should tell you something about steroids, their effectiveness and who they really help the most.

Jay

WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: Jason

If steroids could make you hit homers everyone would be playing baseball. If this were the case we would have 200 players every year hitting 70+ home runs. Watch Bond's hit. He has become more disciplined. I suppose you would have to have played the game at a higher level at some point to understand.


Jason

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Posted By: Cobby33

Well-put!

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Posted By: jay behrens

or more to Jason's point, MLB would be overrun by the steroid freaks of the WWE and we'd be watching them blasting out HRs every night.Big Papa Pump could hit 100 HRs a season with those guns he had.

Jay

WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

This is starting to repeat itself. First off, you have to have the talent to hit a baseball coming at you from different angles and speeds (not to mention different trajectories). You can't just take anybody on steroids and make them a baseball player. To hit homeruns requires someone that can first hit the ball, PERHAPS that is why we don't see professional wrestlers hitting 100 homeruns a season. Bonds already had the talent to jack the ball, all he did was POSSIBLY (hahahaha) enhance himself to get that bat through the strikezone a little faster (and harder). He had the hand eye coordination already. You take a talent like that and mix in the clear and the cream and you get BONDS. I don't think there's a person that knows baseball that would say pre-CLEAR/CREAM Barry was an untalented ball player.

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Posted By: Anson

Judge, it's a dead thread. Obviously there are Bonds faithfuls and others that want to hang him. I find myself not liking the guy and certainly not believing he's clean. But, I do believe Jay is right in that there are many other folks to look at. Barry may be at the front of the line but I think there are SEVERAL question marks in MLB.

Steroids make good players great and great players icons. There is yet to be a substance that makes bad players good. Baseball is a game that requires many different skills to be successful. Bonds, Clemens, etc... possess those skills, no arguement here.

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Posted By: Al Crisafulli

"Steroids make good players great and great players icons."

That's the one comment in the above post that I can't agree with.

Alex Sánchez
Jorge Piedra
Agustin Montero
Jamal Strong
Juan Rincon
Rafael Betancourt
Rafael Palmeiro
Ryan Franklin
Mike Morse
Carlos Almanzar
Felix Heredia
Matt Lawton

These are the major leaguers who have been suspended for steroids. There is ONE great player on that list.

Now, I suspect that many of the monster players that have been discussed within this thread, and many more, have used steroids. I am much more inclined to believe Ken Caminiti, Jose Canseco and David Wells' comments on steroids than I am inclined to believe that steroid use has been limited to the eight or ten players who have become poster children for a game-wide problem (plus the 11 other nobodys on the above list).

Why did the above 12 guys get caught and nobody else? I have no idea. Smarter chemistry, maybe?

I think that steroids give a hitter the ability to get the bat through the zone quicker and hit the ball with more upper-body strength. I think they give a pitcher the ability to use his legs to drive harder off the rubber. I think they give all players the ability to recover more quickly from soreness and fatigue.

But I don't think steroids are what give Barry Bonds the ability to dominate his peers the way he does. Over the last five years or so, NOBODY has come close to his numbers consistently. And we're talking about some monster players during the last five years.

It may not be possible to make a clean comparison between Bonds and players of other eras, a point that has been made again and again in this thread. There are way too many variables to consider when trying to decide if Barry Bonds was a better player than Babe Ruth or Willie Mays.

However, it is entirely possible to make a clean comparison between Bonds and the other players of his OWN era. Barry Bonds has been one of the top five players in the game throughout his entire career. From the late 90s to now, there's nobody close.

So if A) the man has never tested positive, despite the fact that we all know he's used steroids, B) banishment from the game isn't even a penalty for testing positive if he HAD, C) steroid use has been widespread, and D) Bonds has clearly been the dominant player - or A dominant player - during his career, then how is it possible to question whether or not he is an obvious first-ballot HOFer?

Is it because he's a jerk, or is it because he's managed to not get caught using steroids? Because neither one of those is sufficient reasons to keep a guy out of the Hall.

-Al

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Posted By: jay behrens

Judge, the point is that these people make it seem like Bonds and other would never hit a HR if they weren't juiced.

I'm not an expert in batting, but I do know about it, power is derived from bat speed, torso strength and torsion and the proper swing to hit the ball over the fence instead of line drives. Big arms don't make you a HR hitter. Just look back at Brian Downing. The guy had some of the most massive arms the game has ever seen. Yet he never hit 30 HRs in a season.

Raw, brute strength does not get you HRs

Jay

WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Jay

This is getting scary....I'm agreeing with you too often, lately....Well said,
in your above post.

And, I might add that athletes (big ones) from other sports cannot walk up to
the plate, face major league pitching, and hit a BB effectively, much less a
long distance. I do not care how good they are in their respective sport.
Michael Jordon, as great a BasketBall player that he is, proved this point
when he tried playing BB.

It takes at least 10 years to produce a professional ballplayer....BaseBall,
Tennis, Football, BasketBall.....you name it. I taught my daughters to play
tennis from age 6 and when they entered HS they were at the top of the team.
I started playing BB with my grandson when he was 5 years old. In HS he was
on the A-team and hit several HR's over 400 feet in inter-school games. And,
mind you, he is only 5:7 and 160 lbs.

Jay, you are absolutely correct....bigness, bulk, whatever, has nothing to do
with hitting HRs.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Jay,

You're right! Bonds already had the talent to hit the baseball. The thread is about Bonds so he's getting hit pretty hard here. There are others that juiced so Bonds is not alone, he just happened to use the edge to better himself more than others have. I've posted it several times already, I like to watch Bonds hit the ball and I like to watch his at bats because they are somewhat mesmerizing. Although I don't think to highly of Bonds "the person", I do think he's added a lot of excitement to the game. Now on the subject of bulk and homeruns... a good example of raw power and bat speed without all the bulk is George Foster. Wow, he was fun to watch in a game. Actually, that whole Red Machine team was great to watch.

Again, I'm not a big Bonds fan but I can admit that he's been fun to watch lately.

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Posted By: jay behrens

So has anyone actually gone out and bought the book?

Jay

WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: Anonymous

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Posted By: Anson

"That's the one comment in the above post that I can't agree with."

Alex Sánchez
Jorge Piedra
Agustin Montero
Jamal Strong
Juan Rincon
Rafael Betancourt
Rafael Palmeiro
Ryan Franklin
Mike Morse
Carlos Almanzar
Felix Heredia
Matt Lawton

Well, most of these guys aren't GOOD players. Take away Palmiero and maybe Lawton, you're left with mediocre talent at best.

Steroids don't positively help every ball player. But, for a top-notch talent like Bonds, it would make an outstanding player an Icon.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Does Schmidt also believe that the players that used greenies should be banned from the HOF too? Or did he conviently gloss over or ignore and important part his playing days that invovled an illegal substance?

Jay

WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Brendan booth posted this excerpt from a radio interview with Bonds attorney on the SABR-l list:

In an interesting interview on AM 680, KNBR out of San Francisco, with
Ralph Barbieri and Mark Ibanez last Friday, Bonds' attorney Michael
Rains described the case made by the book in contrast to the case put
together by the federal government against Bonds. He stated that the
main sources from the book are a jaded former lover, a criminal given a
break by the Government for testimony, and the Balco evidence. In
regards to the mistress, her stories have changed from statement to
statement and Mr. Rains has contradictory letters, sent over the course
of a couple of years, from the mistress who was targeting Bonds before
the authors got a hold of her, and it is all documented. The books
"unnamed source", a man named "Steven" (Rains' name, I haven't read the
book), has a long criminal history, and agreed to give the feds whatever
they wanted for reduced charges/immunity etc. Apparently, he has been
kept in the shadows because of his credibility, thus "unnamed source."
And what he revealed about the Balco "evidence" against Bonds was the
most compelling to me. He argued that the book paints a broad picture,
including stating that Bonds used steroids all throughout the year 2002.
However, for 2002, all the FBI could come up with from Balco was that a
"customer" was given a product in the latter part of the year, and a
"ballplayer" was sold a steroid in February. Nothing mentioned Bonds.

Jay

WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Jay,

In an effort to keep this going so that you can be post #300 (this is post 278)...

You've heard one side of the story via the book or SI now we get to hear Bond's attorney's side - maybe somewhere in the middle is a "better" truth.

People that dislike Bonds will not accept his attorney's point of view and those that are Bonds fans will probably choose not to believe the book but deep down probably realize that Bonds juiced it.

Just kidding about trying to stretch this thread to 300 posts...

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Posted By: leonl

and it gets locked just kidding...it could go to 500 for all I care...

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Posted By: davidcycleback

For incentive, my favorite movie is 2001. Luckily, my favorite isn't 20,000 League Beneath the Sea

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Posted By: Brian

Mitchell to head steroid investigationESPN.com news services



ESPN has learned that George Mitchell, former U.S. Senate majority leader from Maine, will be hired by Major League Baseball to head an investigation into past steroid use by major-league players, most prominently Barry Bonds.


Mitchell will not be the lead investigator, but he will head the investigation effort.


ESPN's confirmation of Mitchell as the head of the investigation comes after Wednesday's New York Times reported that commissioner Bud Selig was on the verge of announcing an investigation into steroid use by Bonds and other players as detailed in the book "Game of Shadows" and that Mitchell's name was being floating around baseball circles as the outside person to head such an investigation.


ESPN has learned that Bonds and any other current player who may be part of this investigation will be allowed to play while the investigation is ongoing.

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Posted By: Anonymous

--

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Posted By: David McDonald

The New Yorker, April 3, 2006: "Bigger than the Game"

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Posted By: Kenny Cole

So long as ALL potentially culpable parties are investigated. That would include the Commissioner, the players union, the owners, and the players. After all, since we're looking to preserve the "sanctity" of the game (something that I believe was lost long ago, if it ever really existed), we certainly need to insure that not only are the actual cheaters not allowed to prosper, but that those who knowingly prospered off of the cheaters who prospered are properly sanctioned as well. Certainly, it cannot seriously be argued that only the players are tasked with preserving whatever "sanctity" the game presumably possesses. Above and beyond all else, isn't that the job the Commissioner is supposed to have?

In that regard, if the powers that be in baseball were aware of this steroids thing and did nothing about it because, say just for the sake of example, it was bringing TONS of money into a game that was near death due to a strike, it seems to me that those powers are equally culpable. So, shouldn't we punish them equally? If an owner or commissioner had "guilty knowledge" [to use K.M.Landis' explanation for banning Buck Weaver]of the use of steroids, give them the boot too. While I realize the concept loses a lot of meaning when you are talking about professional athletes and owners, isn't it nonetheless supposed to be true that here in America, not even the REALLY rich and powerful, like owners, are above the righteous hand of the law?

Give me a break. I haven't weighed in before because reading all of the inane BS about the sanctity of baseball's records and whatnot has just made me tired. None of those records are sancrosact, and none of them were achieved by saints. Perhaps this is a news flash, but practically every one of the records we so worship was recorded by someone who cheated, somewhere, somehow. Unfortunately, when the lynch mob mentality gets whipped into a frenzy, as it is now, we tend to forget that fact. However, it is almost indisputable.

I guess you can argue about degrees of cheating, and you can argue about whether some types of cheating are more honorable than other types of cheating. That's what this discusion boils down to, and I'm simply not smart enough to figure out what type of cheating by the pantheon of record setters is/was best and least deterimental to the game. Moreover, I frankly don't care. What I am convinced of is that all of our heros cheated, or at least gave themselves some sort of undue advantage, in some form or fashion. That's why they set records. For "baseball" (or anyone else for that matter) to point the finger at Bonds, while ignoring all of those others who stood to prosper from his alleged misdeeds much more than he did, in my opinion, is the height of hypocrisy.

If all of the "wrongdoers" are treated equally, I'm all for a full scale investigation. Somehow, I don't think that's gonna happen.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I totally agree with Ken and this exact point was brought up by Olberman and numerous others, that if this is to bea truely legit investigation, then they also need to find out when what the commissioner and owners knew. They are just as guilty as the players for turning a blind eye to what was going on.

I can remember back in 1987 when I was living in SF, there were all sorts of rumors about Canseco and McGwire using steroids. So it's not like there weren't hints of this problem until 2 years ago.

Jay

WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Great art; I wonder if Bonds will sign it?

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Posted By: John J. Grillo

I don't buy into investigating owners and the commish as well. We live in an era where individual responsibility cannot be fully accepted--we must find a way to blame others (or solely blame others) as well.

Bonds, McGwire and others may have taken illegal, performance-enhancing drugs and if an investigation reveals that they in fact did so, they (and only they) should be held responsible imo. Don't blame the owners. While they may have turned a blind eye, they are not the ones who shot some juice into their own veins. Bonds and McGwire are big boys--they should've known right from wrong.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I am one of the biggest propopents of personal responsibility. The difference here is that the owners benefited greatly from these players juicing. People don't want to see Bonds, et al benefiting or profiting from from doing this, so why should the owners benefit and profit if they knew their employees were doing something illegal? They should have stepped in and put an end to it, but there is no way they are going to kill the cash cow, so they are just as culpable.

It's all part of our "win at all cost" society.

Jay

WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

I don't like Bonds as a person but...

He's the poster child for steroid abuse in the majors. He's definitely not the only one but he's argueably the one player that has made the best use of his enhanced ability and his raw natural talent.

There have probably been a number of players that have used performance enhancers (like HGH and steroids) and have not seen the results of Bonds but that only goes to show how talented Bonds was before the juice. Unfortunately, Barry is a focal point. Does he deserve it? Perhaps, but singling him out isn't fair either.

I couldn't imagine that owners and managers didn't know that their players were juicing - these are professional sports teams and the people that are in these organizations can't all be that naive.

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Posted By: Cy

There is talk with this new investigation of placing asterisks on the records if players juiced. My first question is, if a player hits a home run off a pitcher who juiced, does that player get a positive asterisk?

Secondly, if there was irrefutable evidence that Aaron took greenies, would you strip him from his home run title as they want to do with Bonds?

Cy

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Posted By: ChuckkieB

Greenies never turned a 390 ft fly ball into a 450 ft home run.

Is investigating Bonds and other players, and discussing potential asterisks next to records "too little, too late?" Of course it is, but what else can Selig and MLB do at this point??? The alternative of MLB sitting on it's hands and doing nothing is not an option. People criticize Selig and MLB for doing NOTHING for years, but now also criticize them when they finally take action??? It's a complete contradiction. In the end, it will be impossible to "out" every player that did steroids, but investigating Bonds and all of the other players implicated in the BALCO scandal is a good start, and it starts MLB down the path to cleaning up the problem for the future. Along the way, if anyone is found to have done steroids, they should be dealt with in the harshest of terms, and their records should be removed completely from the record books - no astersisks.

More stringent drug testing should be the next step.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Chuck,

Nice post...

"The alternative of MLB sitting on it's hands and doing nothing is not an option."

I don't think they sat on their hands. I think they had their thumbs up their arses.

Thank you for pointing out that greenies probably didn't turn a routine fly out into a tape measure shot (at least not on any consistent basis).

As far as expunging records I think that would be a bit drastic because it wouldn't be fair/right to only go after the players that made the most of their enhancements. The ones that improved slightly would fly under the radar. The fact is that the enhanced power hitters did hit the HRs in real games.

As much as it bothers a lot of people I figure removing the records would be a waste because how would you explain that an old box score showed that a player hit a homerun, really didn't hit that homerun. It would be like pretending that several games were never really played...

As mentioned, more strict testing policies and harsher penalties would really go towards cleaning up the game. But then what about Steve Howe who was suspended (drug policy, ok a different type of drug) at least 6 or 7 times only to be reinstated time and again.

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

What would Kennesaw do?



Frank

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Posted By: Al Crisafulli

"Greenies never turned a 390 ft fly ball into a 450 ft home run"


Nope. But they may well have turned a 30 HR season into a 40 HR season, and even more. They may have turned groundouts into base hits, singles into doubles. They may have created stolen bases, added 50-100 AB per season, etc.

Greenies help a player get over fatigue. Where a player in the middle of July may be exhausted to the point of not being able to play, or to the point of dragging through a meaningless game, amphetamines pump a guy up and eliminate the fatigue. Instead of asking for an off day, he goes out and plays, maybe goes 2-for-4. Instead of jogging down to first on a base hit to left-center, maybe he hustles out a double. Instead of getting forced out at second base, maybe he steals second instead.

Over the course of a 20 year career, if greenies give a guy enough gas to hit just 5 more HR a year, that's 100 HR. Turns a superstar with 655 home runs into an icon with 755.

-Al

Edited for clarity

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

This is post 295 Jay. Are you going to be 300?

Devils advocate -

Greenies - amphetamines -

I'm not sure if a player could continually use amphetamines because one side affect would be (believe it or not) fatigue.

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Posted By: jay behrens

296

WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: jay behrens

297


WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: jay behrens

298

WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: jay behrens

299 cheatin like the Judge did

Jay

WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.