Why not more buzz on the Al Demaree Find/Auction?

[cardswin53]

Just curious why there hasn't been many threads or posts on the Al Demoree find and auction. As a Cardinals vintage collector I am very excited about the find and the possibility of adding one or more to my collection.

[Leon]

They are neat cards, R304 Demaree, but are not too widely collected. One reason for that is because of their scarcity. Another is because of their awkward size, and lastly, even a common is several hundred dollars so it won't be easy to go for a set, financially. I know there are many uncataloged cards in the auction and I have a feeling there are plenty more uncataloged ones out there. Still I think they will do well in the long run and, as an esoteric card collector, I like them quite a bit. There is still 10 days left in the auction and I am sure they will do well. regards

http://www.collect-auctions.com/catalog.aspx

[rhettyeakley]

I think this hobby has really changed over the past 10-20 years where cards from the 1930's and 1940's aren't as widely appreciated by vintage collectors. Back in the day a Goudey was just as valuable (or more) than any t206 or t205 card and people preferred the colorful cards form the 1930's, that all seemed to change right about the same time as the advent of grading.

Honestly, when was the last time we had a long thread that specifically targetted 1930's or 1940's cards?

The reason for this is probably simple, we know a lot more about those cards than we do from the earlier decades and to a degree everything about them has already been written. As a hobby researcher/historian these decades just don't offer much in the way of "new" material or information. Also, the cards themselves, while often found beat up, are way more available in nice shape and the lower graded 30's and 40's gum cards haven't seen an increase in price in many years... if anything the common Goudey and Diamond Stars mid-grade stuff is cheaper now thn it has been in a LONG time. The high grade collectors are collecting them in earnest but I never get anyone interested in my 30's stuff, it just sits in my inventory for a long time.

The rare 1930's and 40's issues suffer because of all the things I mentioned as well, and are essentially "guilty by association" in that since the 30's cards have seen reduced interest as of late, so have the rare 1930's issues. A set from the 1910's that is of similar rarity to the Demaree Die-Cuts would be 5-6x as valuable as your average R304 common in somewhat decent shape w/o a trimmed tab ($300-450).

It just seems like the vintage baseball hobby has focused WAY more in the past 5-8 years on the 1900-19 era at the expense of the 19th century stuff and the stuff that came later. If you checked this same site (or its predecessor) 8 years ago there was a lot more people looking for 19th Century stuff than you see now. This hobby is cyclical, it seems like the more mainstream E-card sets are pretty frigid right now where a few short years ago a decent E102 or E96 HOFer was like money in the bank. It will be interesting to see the direction our hobby takes in the future, maybe the R-cards will have their day in the sun.

-Rhett

[cardswin53]

Thanks for your comments.
As a Cardinals team collector who has most of the vintage cards from the mainstream sets, a find and auction of Al Demaree cards is the most excitment I've had in the hobby for quite awhile, I would guess that most team collectors and type collectors would be equally excited. I would not expect anyone to try to collect these as a set.
For those of you that are type collectors, might I suggest you bid on non-cardinals in this auction !

[Orioles1954]

For the record Rhett, with few exceptions (T209 thru T216), I only collect 1930s cards. DeLong, Tattoo Orbit, Batter-Up, George C. Miller, Uncle Jack are just way way way more interesting to me than some random T206 card.

[tbob]

Rhett- I agree with most of your post but have to disagree with the caramel cards being frigid. I don't think their value has slumped more than the tobacco issues of the pre-war era. I believe there has been a real hoarding of many of the caramel issues like E94, E97, E99, E100 and E103 with the net result that you don't seem them for sale in numbers anywhere near where they were a few years ago or even a year ago. I have also noticed that the mid grade and high grade caramels are doing quite well in auctions. I have noticed, however, that the E92, E93, E95 and E96s have not held their value nearly as well as some of the other caracmel sets. Maybe it is because there are more available and are not being hoarded and are being acquired to flip.
It does seem that the cards from the 5 sets I mentioned above seem to be being purchased and going in to collections, not being flipped or coming back on the market months after purchase. The one exception in the 5 set is the black and white "proofs" in the E97 set. They are still tough to find but are now selling for prices no where near what they were selling for a few years ago. Good news for those of trying to complete the set, bad news for those of us holding many of them and watching prices drop.

[tbob]

I have watched the purchase prices of the DeLong cards (I own a set) and have been surprised that they are dropping in price like they are. I think the cards are very attractive and unique and am surprised you can pick them on ebay in nice shape for such low prices (relatively speaking).

[E93]

Originally Posted by tbob

I have watched the purchase prices of the DeLong cards (I own a set) and have been surprised that they are dropping in price like they are. I think the cards are very attractive and unique and am surprised you can pick them on ebay in nice shape for such low prices (relatively speaking).

I agree. I think it is a great set and very attractive. I am always surprised by the low prices too.
JimB

[smtjoy]

I only really collect one 30's series type and I can say 1930's exhibit sets have been tough to find and when they do pop up prices are strong to very strong. I say the opposite for some 20's exhibit sets, 1922's have dropped quite a bit and most 21's are off a little to. That said any of the truly scarce years prices are strong (1926, 1931-32, 1933).

On the E series, I have been collecting E93's (mid to low grade) for about 4 years now and they are down quite a bunch. What I paid for some 3-4 years ago are selling for 30-40% less today. The good news for me is I still need 10 more so I will be happy to get those at the newer price ranges.

[nolemmings]

I agree with Rhett for the most part, but rarity should still command higher prices. I know of one set where the prices are strong and seemingly getting stronger--Worch Cigars. Some collectors must be trying to put together a set, because the odd card for type used to be reasonable, and now the damn things are downright pricey.

[barrysloate]

Historically, irregularly shaped cards, such as the Demarees, don't have a great track record.

I sold an uncatalogued one on ebay about six months ago and got a so-so price for it. It popped up in a Legendary Auction shortly afterwards and sold for about the same. Just not a popular set.

[M's_Fan]

While new finds always interest me, I agree with Barry in that irregularly shaped cards just don't really appeal to me all that much. I didn't like them when I was a kid either. Rarity doesn't make me froth at the mouth either like most collectors, I just love the cards, whether rare or not.

[Matthew H]

Ten years ago the price of a common t206 was still roughly the same as a '33 Goudey (on ebay). The ones I was buying anyway. I think the popularity of the newer Topps 206 sets brought new collectors to the originals.

I could be wrong but I saw the same thing happen to CJ's in 2004. I was gettin' commons cheaper before then.

I disagree that a similar rarity from 1910 would fetch 5 to 6x more money. If that were true then the set of George C Millers that sold for 246,000 would sell for 1.4 million if it was 20 years older.

[tedzan]

Rhett and Tbob have pretty well stated reasons for the waning interest in these cards. My experience selling these cards
at shows in recent years echos what they've said. I would bring to the shows some nicely graded 1933 and '34 Goudeys,
1934-36 Diamond Stars, and 1941 Play Balls.

I had good shows, not because I sold many of these cards....but, because I sold most everything else I had with me. The
hype of the T206 Wagner and other factors (100 year anniversary of T206's, etc.), I think have diverted collectors away
from these 1930's - 1940's cards. It's really sad, as they are not only aesthetically appealing, but have some great bios
printed on them.

I still recall that back in the very early 1980's, a 1934 Goudey Lajoie (#106) was deemed as valuable as a T206 Wagner.
In 1982, I was at a Show in Atlantic City where a Lajoie (Ex) sold for $8K and a Wagner (Vg-Ex) sold for $10K.

So, I don't bring my nice 1933 Goudey's to shows anymore. Instead, I've started putting together another 239-card set
of them (it's my 3rd). All this stuff goes in cycles. The popularity of the 1930's stuff will come back again.



TED Z

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by tedzan

In 1982, I was at a Show in Atlantic City where a Lajoie (Ex) sold for $8K and a Wagner (Vg-Ex) sold for $10K.

I need a time machine.

[rhettyeakley]

Matthew, the George C. Miller set is a very extreme example as obviously I was talking about the era in general. There are some sets from the 1930's that are extremely rare and sell for nowhere close to what a similar type of card would sell for from ~1910.

Examples:
1938 Sawyer Biscuits (~250-300 for a NICE common)
1934 Tarzan Bread (~700-900 for a NICE common)
1934 Demaree Die-Cuts (~300-450 for a NICE common)
1936-39 Overland Candy (~300 for a NICE common)
1931 W502's are a VERY tough set and two HOFers just ended last night for $60-80 graded fairly high (I forgot to put in a snipe so I'm beating myself up on these)

compare these with some ~1910 sets that may not even be as tough as them and I'll stick by what I said...
1913 Voskamp's
1903-04 Briesch Williams
T206 rarest backs
1910 Obak Cabinets
1911 J=K candy
etc
etc
etc

Maybe the 5-6x was a bit extreme but overall if one was to paint with a broad brush it would be in the 3-10x depending on the 1910 era set you are talking about.

Again, I'm not saying it is right or anything else I'm simply stating the era as a whole is down in comparison and I am talking mainly w/o the registry bunch being taken into consideration here as I truly feel that (despite what some may say) the mid grade average joe is the true barometer of the health of the hobby or any given era within not the ultra-high graded set or card collector.

-Rhett

[Bob Lemke]

I believe the Demaree Die-Cuts lack of price parity with other contemporary bubblegum cards can largely be attributed to their rarity and the oddly sized format. Nobody knew what to pay because nobody knew what was out there.

The full story of the R304 "find" was published in SCD a year or so ago, along with checklist additions that bring the known checklist to nearly 100%. The story is available right now on the www.collect.com/auctions home page, via a link on the right-hand side.

I'm not sure what standards PSA applied to these cards when they were submitted for grading, but the slab grades are excessively harsh, in my opinion. I examined the cards when we met with the consignor. They have exceptional eye appeal, especially for cards that are in many (most) cases currently the only examples of those players.

[DaveW]

Bob,
Thanks for posting a link to the R304 article. It was really interesting.
- Dave

[Bob Lemke]

I just had occasion to check out the auction action on the Demaree Die-Cuts. With a week to go every lot, the single stars and the team groupings, has an opening bid.

The Hall of Famers, especially the previously uncataloged cards, are already bid up to several hundred dollars over their "catalog" value for the grade.

It will be interesting to watch where the bidding goes after the National closes its doors and collectors look for places to spend what they brought home from Baltimore.

[cardswin53]

I never questioned that the Demaree cards wouldn't do well in the auction,(although I was hoping I could pick up the Cardinals for a reasonable amount!) my surprise was the lack of interest in the find/auction on this board devoted to vintage baseball cards. I think it is one of the most exciting finds of vintage cards in recent history given that there are few of them around and some that have never previoulsy been identified for a checklist.