Wilt da Stilt gamer/Tiernan jersey info

[mickeymao34]

A Quick note about legit Tiernan vs NON-LEGIT Tiernan Laker jerseys.



Legit Tiernan Laker jerseys should and always have the following:

1) top of Laker logo should be close to neckline (see pic)

2) bottom of L in Laker logo should have little to almost no spacing in regards to top of number. (see pic)

3) the tackle twill shadow should ALWAYS have indentation in regards to inner number indentation. (see pic and example)

--if you ever see a Tiernan Laker shirt lacking any of these traits (Many Magics and Kareem's) laugh and pass on them. Many these bad shirts have been featured in auctions.

compare the real Wilkes to knock off Magic.

IMO the Wilt jersey that is appearing in latest AH does not possess the traits that are characteristics of legit Tiernan game worn jerseys. Thats my opinion and there does not exist a photo in existence that would prove that any Lakers players A-Z wore a number font like that during the Tiernan era. The spacing during Wilt era could have wider gap. Also the spacing between the 1 and 3 is way to close. All Wilt pics i looked at have a much wider gap. Again my opinion and opinions have been proven to be wrong before. Take it for what its worth its your 40-70k. IMO a photomatched item deserves the honors of a A10 grade. A10 grade should mean beyond a reasonable doubt that the item is shizit and nothing below it and this example is a few light years remotely close to even the A7.5 grade. The intact Tiernan tag is somewhat troubling too. I have seen them on some game worn jerseys from this era, but only on common players who saw little to no playing time. Tiernan tags were not stitched on routinely during this era.

[WindyCityGameUsed]

Mick

I think you present a compelling case.

I'm not a BB guy but I for 1 am always leery of GU that comes out of nowhere.

Kind of appears that the tag on the Stilt is beat while the rest of the jersey looks pristine but then again I'm no self appointed expert so what would I know!!

I can't see spending any money on significant GU that can't be proven with a 100% photo match. If all you got as proof is a jersey to spec & sum opinion that is written in a way so that an AH doesn't have to assume any liability than I'm out.

I'm surprised that a consigner of such an "important piece" wouldn't consign with an AH whose known speciality in the industry is BB.

Maybe its just me but bidding seams rather low for such a "historic piece" don't you think?

Ron Kosiewicz

[mickeymao34]

Good eye on tag. And you speak the truth about perfect photo identified specimen. A10=photomatch NO LESS. Only LOA I like is a positive ID Photo. Anything else is blah blah blah on paper.
Mike

[Leon]

Originally Posted by mickeymao34

Good eye on tag. And you speak the truth about perfect photo identified specimen. A10=photomatch NO LESS. Only LOA I like is a positive ID Photo. Anything else is blah blah blah on paper.
Mike

There are things on the card side we look for too. For me it's big borders because there is less likeliness of them being trimmed. If I collected autographs it would be on official docs and if I collected GU it would have to all be photo matched.

[mickeymao34]

Originally Posted by Leon

There are things on the card side we look for too. For me it's big borders because there is less likeliness of them being trimmed. If I collected autographs it would be on official docs and if I collected GU it would have to all be photo matched.

In this day of age of countless AHs where the buck comes before integrity, you would have to go with a spot on photograph as a LOA. It's my belief the AH do not care whether an item is game worn but the perception of it being game worn is all that matters. In the early days of collecting game used the chance of getting a legit game worn item was good as long as spec's were correct. Today, spec's are known by everybody and duplicated (although not with accuracy) even the common players are forged. IMO the very historical items are not going to appear in a AH. More than likely a private sale if it ever even enters market...few do. Collectors of Very vintage and historical game worn jerseys definitely need to do the research and always take that "let the buyers beware" stance. Its unfortunate but an education in this hobby is expensive and learnt the hard way.

[mickeymao34]

approaching 34k SMH

[mickeymao34]

Ended at 34k not including juice...with juice 40k.. this figure way low for a wilt piece. Legit wilt gamer would surpass 70k easy. But still i feel for the poor dude who has to cut that check.40k aint no chump change. What gets me is the AH's analysis to other examples of Tiernan Laker shirts. If this was researched correctly this does not correlate to given examples spec wise. Most unfortunate. Renege is an option and def part of the biz.

[mickeymao34]

So it looks like another Magic has hit AH market with current bid of 8500. IMO it is the same jersey as the one I used as an example as to what a replica looks like. And it has a Mears A10 stamp of approval! How do they justify a A10 grade? Again, there is ZERO images/pics in existence that would support the Lakers (any player A-Z in Tiernan era) ever to wear a shirt with this type of number font PERIOD. Is anybody seeing the correlations of strings of A10s and AHs????????

[perezfan]

Have you called or written Mears directly? I would think that in order to justify the A10 grade, they'd have to produce at least a few images of this style being worn in games.

And if you did correspond with them, what was their response? Very curious to know, as lots of $$$ obviously at stake. Great thread!

[dwightclarkJ]

I agree a very interesting thread. I have some game used stuff but far from a expert. Just out of curiosity myself i emailed them a link to this thread.
Clark.

[MEARSAUCTIONS]

I have received some questions about the grade we assigned the Wilt Chamberlain shirt. As always, I am always glad to share my process for which I applied to render an opinion. It is always my hopes that after my opinion has been published and the methodology and references are supplied that you agree with my findings. If not, that is okay too, but you will always know how and why MEARS rendered an opinion.

Per the original post, I believe the following questions were asked:

1) top of Laker logo should be close to neckline (see pic)

2) bottom of L in Laker logo should have little to almost no spacing in regards to top of number. (see pic)

3) the tackle twill shadow should ALWAYS have indentation in regards to inner number indentation. (see pic and example)

Going in order, I addressed each point:

1) top of Laker logo should be close to neckline (see pic)

Based on the images I used to evaluate the Chamberlain shirt, my research when comparing to available image determined:

Answer 1: The placement of the LAKERS logo varied from high to low in conjunction with the bottom of the neck line. See images.

2) bottom of L in Laker logo should have little to almost no spacing in regards to top of number. (see pic)

Answer 2: Based on my answer to question 1, it would change the placement of the spacing. My images supported more space between the bottom of the word LAKERS and the top of the 13. The poster uses a 1980 magic Johnson photo when examining a early 1970s Lakers shirt, and in my opinion, the variation between the Chamberlain and the Magic is justified via photographic evidence.

3) the tackle twill shadow should ALWAYS have indentation in regards to inner number indentation. (see pic and example)

Answer 3: The indentation is often present, but these numbers were hand cut. With Magic, Wilt, and Jabbar ordering and using more shirts that their teammates, it is reasonable to assume more variations of the numbering when hand cut could occur. The Magic shirt shows no indentication, and the third Chamberlain shows either no indentation or a very little one. (see graphic Wilt Chamberlain Front Comparison, last image)


What I know about Lakers shirts and hope I have illustrated here are there are many variations with respect to LAKERS placement and numbering style/placement.

At the end of the day the original poster may not agree with my final conclusion and that is right. It is my hope that readers were able to follow the MEARS process and see how we came to the conclusion we did.

This post is also in response to the Magic Johnson shirt currently being offered by Heritage Auctions and hope that the provided image of Magic without the indentations in the numbering supports that opinion also.

Regards,

Troy R. Kinunen – Memorabilia Evaluations and Research Services

(414) 828 -9990, troy@mearsonline.com

wilt front response 1-1.jpg

[perezfan]

Thanks for posting.

Do we know for a fact that the "no notch" photo matches are Tiernan Jerseys?

Wasn't there an alternate supplier? Is there evidence of a Tiernan Jersey without the notched shadowing?

Just want to be clear on this key point.... Thanks!

[MEARSAUCTIONS]

Yes, the referenced examples are Tiernan shirts. In 1986 the Lakers switched to Sand Knit, but those would be found with the NBA logo on the front shoulder since that was the season the logo was mandated by the league.

[perezfan]

Thanks

[WindyCityGameUsed]

Originally Posted by MEARSAUCTIONS

I have received some questions about the grade we assigned the Wilt Chamberlain shirt. As always, I am always glad to share my process for which I applied to render an opinion. It is always my hopes that after my opinion has been published and the methodology and references are supplied that you agree with my findings. If not, that is okay too, but you will always know how and why MEARS rendered an opinion.

Per the original post, I believe the following questions were asked:

1) top of Laker logo should be close to neckline (see pic)

2) bottom of L in Laker logo should have little to almost no spacing in regards to top of number. (see pic)

3) the tackle twill shadow should ALWAYS have indentation in regards to inner number indentation. (see pic and example)

Going in order, I addressed each point:

1) top of Laker logo should be close to neckline (see pic)

Based on the images I used to evaluate the Chamberlain shirt, my research when comparing to available image determined:

Answer 1: The placement of the LAKERS logo varied from high to low in conjunction with the bottom of the neck line. See images.

2) bottom of L in Laker logo should have little to almost no spacing in regards to top of number. (see pic)

Answer 2: Based on my answer to question 1, it would change the placement of the spacing. My images supported more space between the bottom of the word LAKERS and the top of the 13. The poster uses a 1980 magic Johnson photo when examining a early 1970s Lakers shirt, and in my opinion, the variation between the Chamberlain and the Magic is justified via photographic evidence.

3) the tackle twill shadow should ALWAYS have indentation in regards to inner number indentation. (see pic and example)

Answer 3: The indentation is often present, but these numbers were hand cut. With Magic, Wilt, and Jabbar ordering and using more shirts that their teammates, it is reasonable to assume more variations of the numbering when hand cut could occur. The Magic shirt shows no indentication, and the third Chamberlain shows either no indentation or a very little one. (see graphic Wilt Chamberlain Front Comparison, last image)


What I know about Lakers shirts and hope I have illustrated here are there are many variations with respect to LAKERS placement and numbering style/placement.

At the end of the day the original poster may not agree with my final conclusion and that is right. It is my hope that readers were able to follow the MEARS process and see how we came to the conclusion we did.

This post is also in response to the Magic Johnson shirt currently being offered by Heritage Auctions and hope that the provided image of Magic without the indentations in the numbering supports that opinion also.

Regards,

Troy R. Kinunen – Memorabilia Evaluations and Research Services

(414) 828 -9990, troy@mearsonline.com

Attachment 221402

How about Troy furthering this discussion and his points by replacing the low resolution auction listing picture of the Magic jersey in question in the current HA auction to a high resolution picture.

Its annoying that with all of todays technology that issues like this exist where when you increase the size of sum auction house listing pictures they distort to the point that you can't tell anything. GFC also uses the same type of annoying pictures in their auctions.

Troy thanks for your understanding

Ron Kosiewicz

[mickeymao34]

Ron, I do believe you are referring to this "example" pic. This example pic falls under the criteria of post #1 of this thread. It does in fact have indentations (notch) on top and bottom of 3 and top of 2. The picture that Mears provided is ambiguous and distorted due to it being blown up version of a low resolution picture (IMO even though its a low resolution pic the notch can still be noted in that pic). Also the example pic that Mears provided does not even come close to the spacing issues noted in post #1 (spacing tween bottom of number and top of L in Lakers is always small to virtually none-again NO photos exist in Magic era to refute this). In addition the whole picture should have been included which will show Big Game James standing next to him with also a 42 font that follows criteria of post #1. Pics to follow. I have high resolution pics of this exact jersey from many different games including, I believe, the NBA Finals. Also the Wilt pic he provided is distorted and ambiguous and the spacing does not even come close to style matching to his example. That jersey also has the indentations (notch) per post #1. example pics to follow. I will go further, as stated before, that there is NO pics in existence of any players A-Z that exhibits letter fonts as those jerseys of the Wilt and Magic in question. Find me ONE quality pic of ANY player A-Z wearing that style of font (sand knit era font) and I will call it all good. BUT none exist! I have had discussions with equip mgrs. from both Tiernan era and Sand knit era. He stated that in tiernan era players were issued 2 homes and 2 roads and that was the stars! Lesser players were issued 1 home and 1 road as verified to me by player Clay Johnson. Magic played 7 years (79/80 to 85/86) wearing Tiernan and even if he was issued 4 home per season there should be ~28 legit home Magics-and that's being liberal b/c,as stated before, many years they were issued 2 homes and 2 roads. So NO WAY all these home lakers Magics could have been possibly have been worn. If you goggle the topic there is a multitude of these types (wrong font) of Tiernans from many different auctions. I have included in this post 2 other examples of questionable shirts with wrong letter fonts with the traits of washed out tiernan tag and which shows little wear to the letter and numbers with exception to the over-bleeding of the gold onto letters and numbers. It is my understanding that the late Bernard Tiernan sold many blank Lakers jerseys to whomever wanted them and many of these were added with the wrong font (sand knit era fonts)..many of these entered the hobby. These questionable Tiernan jerseys were offered and sold in great numbers in the 90s prior to advent of the internet. Thorough research was very tough task back then. Again pics are coming. I have been a collector of Lakers cards and game used jerseys for many many years. The education process for game worn Laker jerseys has been a expensive time consuming one.

[mickeymao34]

Posted are Tiernan examples from 70-80s. These examples follow the criteria of post #1 as far as spacing and notches and note that NONE deviate from post #1.

[mickeymao34]

Originally Posted by mickeymao34

Posted are Tiernan examples from 70-80s. These examples follow the criteria of post #1 as far as spacing and notches and note that NONE deviate from post #1.

here are few more tieran "commons" example

[TB12GOAT]

Here is a Kareem with no notch...

[mickeymao34]

Originally Posted by TB12GOAT

Here is a Kareem with no notch...

My point being is that there is not a shred of photographic evidence whatsoever of a player,any player from A-Z, wearing a shirt with a number font without notch during Tiernan era. Over time the replicas have gotten better as they improved their creations in regards to spacing, especially after the advent of internet. There has also been some instances where a legit common gamer has been altered to a star player (Cazzie Russell to Magic comes to mind). The ones with inaccurate spacing and lack of notched were all made in early 90s. Also the material of the shirts in question compared to an actual game worn jersey (one that has been proven worn thru photomatch) actually feels different. One must ask how come its only the big stars with the lack of notch in number fonts that appear frequently for sale? As stated before show me 1 CLEAR pic from Tiernan era of any player w/o a notch and I'll admit my ignorance. Displaying a example without a notch from an AH doesn't refute my points but only reinforces it IMO. Showing me a photograph of actual player wearing it in game play is a totally different story. Lastly, in this example why is it that the Tiernan tag is worn out and beat to hell while the rest of the piece looks virtually pristine? Sadly the game worn collecting hobby is 90% deception (10% buried deep for years in collections) especially in big named star players from vintage eras. In todays environment the only way to go in purchasing a legit big name star vintage shirt is with a solid photomatch. No Letter of Opinion can make a vintage jersey actually real, maybe "real" in the minds of the unknowing.

[Bpm0014]

Great read!!

[WindyCityGameUsed]

Is this thread going to be ignored now since going got tough?

It's been over 24 hours since a high resolution picture of the Magic jersey in question was requested to be posted in this thread to add much needed validation to Troy's posted position given the other contradictory posted pictures.

On a side note I personally never understood the whole A10 grade system cause to me personally if I'm going to give an item a 10 out of 10 grade then I better be able to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt what I'm saying with some serious photographic evidence otherwise no way it can grade out a 10.

[mickeymao34]

Ron, Here is the pic you requested (UNCROPPED) that Mears used as example and it is the same exact shirt worn in pic with Bird in NBA Finals. All the mesh holes match up perfectly like a fingerprint at a crime scene. These are much higher resolution than the example pic that was provided to prove my theory (fact) of notched Tiernans wrong. Note the prominent notches and spacing as stated in post 1 on BOTH players (Magic and Big Game). This jersey was worn in many, many ,many games and in Getty pics of that year. I have more higher resolution pics of this jersey in different games if you wish to see. I'm not pushing agendas here (as this is a free country and entitled to spend your cash as you see fit) this is all purely from a collector stance and not from an entity that stands to make dineros.

[mickeymao34]

Originally Posted by WindyCityGameUsed

Is this thread going to be ignored now since going got tough?

It's been over 24 hours since a high resolution picture of the Magic jersey in question was requested to be posted in this thread to add much needed validation to Troy's posted position given the other contradictory posted pictures.

On a side note I personally never understood the whole A10 grade system cause to me personally if I'm going to give an item a 10 out of 10 grade then I better be able to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt what I'm saying with some serious photographic evidence otherwise no way it can grade out a 10.

Ron, that is a great point. I can further this discussion by adding the question of how many of these A10's are evaluated and produced at the request of a AH vs collector request?

[WindyCityGameUsed]

48 Hours and counting now of silence since the very simple request of a high resolution picture of the A10 Magic being sold be added to this thread.

Has Troy left the building now cause all I hear are crickets??

[Bpm0014]

Post 23. The two Magic shirts at the very bottom. Notice the positioning of the "a" in Lakers in relation to the capital "L". They are vastly different.

[mickeymao34]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

Post 23. The two Magic shirts at the very bottom. Notice the positioning of the "a" in Lakers in relation to the capital "L". They are vastly different.

Nice eye Brendan. Now that you mentioned it the Lakers Logo on both Wilt and A10 Magic look waaay off. The space between the L and A is too wide and not consistent with the examples I posted of Tiernans that are dated from Wilt era (#21 Flynn Robinson) thru Magic era. The Lakers logos in all those examples are pretty consistent. IMO the Lakers logo looks like a replica in those two. The space inconsistency is also quite noticeable in Mears post to compare a game pic vs A10 Magic pic.

[mickeymao34]

If you compare the Flynn Robinson (same era and played with Wilt) Lakers logo to Wilt you will note the obvious difference. Also compare the game pic Wilt to AH Wilt.

[WindyCityGameUsed]

Mick

Maybe I'm missing something here since Troy has fallen silent but can you explain how this could be that the LA Lakers script placement between the neckline and #'s seems inconsistent with the Magic A10 and the game jersey's and game pictures you have posted??

While your at it can you also explain why in all of the pictures you've posted of same era jersey's you own and game pictures that these Laker jerseys all show tremendous wear while the A10 displays none on the same characteristics on the LA Lakers script or #'s???

Maybe Troy would like to post again and point out ANYTHING that is correct on the LA Lakers script or #'s on the Mears A10 graded Magic??

[WindyCityGameUsed]

Originally Posted by mickeymao34

Ron, that is a great point. I can further this discussion by adding the question of how many of these A10's are evaluated and produced at the request of a AH vs collector request?

WOW

IMO I don't know if I can give an honest speculative answer to your question even on an open forum as I believe the TRUE answer to that might send shock waves thru the GU community.

IMO that is a serious spot on question with a dangerous answer

[mickeymao34]

Forgot I had this one too, found buried in closet.

[dhernandez]

Interesting stuff!

[dhernandez]

Are you sure of your claims? Because this Magic jersey sold for 18k on heritage auctions.

[mickeymao34]

Really? WoW! Will it is a A10 afterall.

[TB12GOAT]

Never say never when it comes to vintage stuff...a lot of these uniforms were numbered and lettererd locally...I've seen plenty of anomalies over the years.

Here is a picture of Magic with no notches in the number 3...

[mickeymao34]

Originally Posted by TB12GOAT

Never say never when it comes to vintage stuff...a lot of these uniforms were numbered and lettererd locally...I've seen plenty of anomalies over the years.

Here is a picture of Magic with no notches in the number 3...

that is a sand knit era pic,,NOT tiernan... Magic had a goatee and facial hair thru-out Tiernan years and plus that is an older Magic Johnson,,the NBA logo just hidden from postion of that shot,,, so NEVER can be said in this argument,... NEVER has a no notched shirt existed in any way shape or form in Tiernan years...Magic years 1979/80 to 1985/86.. no way ! I will give you this it definitely is a NO NOTCHED 3 font.

[mickeymao34]

that pic can possibly be even a Champion era pic.. Magic didn't shed the facial hairs until mid 1987/88 season which is WELL beyond the Tiernan era. And BTW Tiernan did use local seamstresses to cut and sew on fonts and all had notched fonts. Hell for kicks lets throw in this pic and call it a no notch shirt since the logo is somewhat hidden in a low res pic.

[mickeymao34]

Originally Posted by WindyCityGameUsed

Mick

Maybe I'm missing something here since Troy has fallen silent but can you explain how this could be that the LA Lakers script placement between the neckline and #'s seems inconsistent with the Magic A10 and the game jersey's and game pictures you have posted??

While your at it can you also explain why in all of the pictures you've posted of same era jersey's you own and game pictures that these Laker jerseys all show tremendous wear while the A10 displays none on the same characteristics on the LA Lakers script or #'s???

Maybe Troy would like to post again and point out ANYTHING that is correct on the LA Lakers script or #'s on the Mears A10 graded Magic??

And yes Ron you are correct in your statement that a grade of a perfect 10 shouldn't be anything less than anything that can proven to be BEYOND a reasonable doubt. A company's reputation should not hold the standard to which a piece deserves the perfect 10. Proof is in the pictures and nothing less and no yakking head can convince me otherwise. The company doing the assessing has had ample time to substantiate they're proof in "my errors" from post 11. The silence is the verdict in my book and at this point it wouldn't surprise me that trying to discredit persons making and throwing out questions would be the next task at hand. Instead of producing true fact finding/photo altering evidence.

[TB12GOAT]

Other examples where I dont see a "notch"...

[TB12GOAT]

No "notch" on Magic...Magic and Kareem with different color numbers

[TB12GOAT]

Lesser known player... No "notch" in the 5...wish these pictures would upload as the same size as I can view them 🙈

[mickeymao34]

Originally Posted by TB12GOAT

Lesser known player... No "notch" in the 5...wish these pictures would upload as the same size as I can view them ��

TB 5's have no NOTCH...3's and 2's do.

[mickeymao34]

those are crap low res pics and they do have notches... that magic with bird from NBA finals and I have multiple high res pics plus I have actual issue of that sporting news... I see that this is your 4th and only 4 -5 posts..why don't u state ur name per rules of the board. are you a AH employee? a particular one? come up with HIGH res pic of any player and i'll offer up my first born.

[mickeymao34]

Originally Posted by TB12GOAT

Other examples where I dont see a "notch"...

wrong again... give it up. But its your time go play notch-buster.

[Bpm0014]

Great detective work Mike.

[mickeymao34]

Originally Posted by TB12GOAT

Never say never when it comes to vintage stuff...a lot of these uniforms were numbered and lettererd locally...I've seen plenty of anomalies over the years.

Here is a picture of Magic with no notches in the number 3...

What I find to be an anomaly is when you have a total of 5 posts and all 5 here in a card forum. Your use of certain words associated with the hobby indicates that you are familiar with it and yet you are purposely posting neophyte mistakes. What's the agenda bro? State your name . Too bad it is Winter Term but I do believe you can retake Trolling 101 in the summer sessions.

[mickeymao34]

Originally Posted by mickeymao34

What I find to be an anomaly is when you have a total of 5 posts and all 5 here in a card forum. Your use of certain words associated with the hobby indicates that you are familiar with it and yet you are purposely posting neophyte mistakes. What's the agenda bro? State your name . Too bad it is Winter Term but I do believe you can retake Trolling 101 in the summer sessions.

Who you gonna call? Notch-Busters!!!!!

[Samets]

Originally Posted by mickeymao34

... What's the agenda bro? State your name . Too bad it is Winter Term but I do believe you can retake Trolling 101 in the summer sessions.

Pot calling kettle black!

You're the guy that had 10 different accounts on GUU and used to comment on your own posts with different accounts! How many of your accounts were banned and how many do you still have left?

Your BFF WindyCityGameUsed was banned as well except with him, EVERY single post he ever made were deleted!

[WindyCityGameUsed]

If you want to be smug and talk smack about me You best get your facts straight (Once Again) comrade smegma

If its any of your business I HAD doug aka pet monkey #2 delete all my pictures and posts after being banned for calling out Kenny G's plant/fake user account Phil316 in my last post. Like you don't know that Kenny likes 2 use Phil316 to play with the hobbyist & take swipes at competing AH's particularly Grey Flannel? I would also luv 2C Phil/(KG) say those things to Russek's face and watch what happens next.

If you stood for anything besides being a hoarder & cheap maybe you would post some of those derogatory comments you've made about Kenny G's business practices on the Clown College site instead of posting and hiding those thoughts on that low brow GUC site (Like Kenny isn't monitoring the internet!!! LOL)

Stick to the topic of this thread bro from what I've seen of that so called collection you have at least 3 very questionable items sourced from the very same people.

Bottom line your collection makes as much sense as you do so stick to what you really know which is bottom feeding the next LBT "price is right" pick-up on ebay

[Samets]

No one is talking smack.

Facts were posted. You two were banned. Your posts were deleted.

Your reply is the perfect example of why both of you and the multiple accounts were banned.

I hope the moderators see your response and follow GUU Moderators and ban you from this great forum as well.