That T210 Jackson

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul

What is going on with Robert Edwards' T210 Jackson? Didn't Steve Verkman auction one of these off 2-3 years ago for about $5,000? Now it's $80,000 for one that PSA refused to grade. I know some people don't bid in Verkman's auctions, but geez what a difference.

[Archive]

Posted By: Scott Elkins

For being OUT of the Hobby during that Verkman auction!!!! $5k is a very SMALL amount for a T210 Jackson in any condition. The one in the Halper auction years ago sold for around $10k. The only good thing about your letting me know the cheap price of the Verkman example is that I cannot be setting around having had a chance at winning it and didn't.

Personally, I would rather have a T210 Jackson than that Minor League Ruth that brought over $200k however. So, I guess it was a deal compared to that card in a sense.

[Archive]

Posted By: eric p.

the jackson did go for more that i thought it would, my high bid was $20,000, i would have gone as high as $30,000, $80,000 is too rich for my blood, the REA jackson is the nicest of all the jackson's that have come up for auction, i will pay $17,000 for a beater, the series 8 cards went for $290 a piece, it seems t210's are getting hotter by each passing day!

[Archive]

Posted By: WP

What is the highest graded copy on the Jackson?

[Archive]

Posted By: Hal Lewis

It wasn't graded Wally because the companies all thought it might be trimmed.

It was slabbed as "authentic."

That's what makes the final price even MORE remarkable.

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian

Regardless of the cut, the card image and visual appeal are remarkable. I would rather have a AUTH card with such presentation than a SGC or PSA VG card with creases or image issues.

Based upon the scan, the cut does appear to be vintage.

[Archive]

Posted By: WP

Does any body know what the actual highest graded copy is?

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian

I checked the pop reports.....

PSA has 2 cards in the 1-2 range and SGC list 0.


Be well Brian

[Archive]

Posted By: Derek

So, what is the reason for the scarcity on this card? If it was issued the same as the other t210's, wouldnt it stand to reason that there are many out there? Or is this a tough series within the set?

[Archive]

Posted By: Zach

Don't know too much on the set but have heard and seen through prices that series 8 is the rarest and commands the highest prices.

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian Weisner

Series 8 is much tougher than the rest......

[Archive]

Posted By: WP

Brian,
Where did you find it on the psa pop report, I had trouble locating it.

[Archive]

Posted By: eric p.

series 8 cards are the most difficult to obtain from the t210 set, like REA stated in his auction which is true, every card in series 8 is rarer the t206 wagner, they just don't come up very often, there is not a known complete t210 set let alone a complete series 8 set, the series 8 cards in the REA auction were exceptionally much more difficult to obtain than most of the series 8 cards because they were chattanooga and birmingham players, that is another reason why the cards demanded so much money, i have never seen a chattanooga player ever hit ebay, so that should tell you something, i feel that the jackson is well worth $80,000, if it ever comes up again it will probably bring $100,000+, the jackson actually brought $92,800 with the juice!

[Archive]

Posted By: Wesley

Are there any notable players in the T210 set besides Jackson and Stengel?

[Archive]

Posted By: robert a

From my experience, every series besided 1,2, and 3 are difficult and I actually have seen the series 8 more than some of the others, but probably just because it hits the market more because of the Jackson card.

This trimmed Jackson will probably do a lot for the sales of "authentic" cards in the future.

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

The other amazing thing about series 8 is that 47 of the 114 know players in the series made it to majors. This is a much higher percentage than an other series. Other names of note include Joe Berger, Gene & Lee DeMonterville and Frank Manush (Heinie's brother).

Jay

I like to sit outside drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

I am almost certain there is one complete set of T210 in the hobby, and I can tell you that the winner of the T210 Jackson is extremely pleased with his purchase. He recognizes he has the finest known copy, and neither he nor I believe it was trimmed; it just presented too much of a problem for PSA to grade it. I feel it was simply poorly cut at the time of issue.

[Archive]

Posted By: Hal Lewis

Barry:

I agree with you 100% in that it was NOT trimmed.

The grading companies are just wimps.

I was bidding on the card up to a point, so it certainly was not just ONE crazy guy who thought the card had such significant value.

Great photo on that card.

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian

"He recognizes he has the finest known copy, and neither he nor I believe it was trimmed; it just presented too much of a problem for PSA to grade it. I feel it was simply poorly cut at the time of issue."

Agreed. The cut is vintage.

[Archive]

Posted By: eric p.

the jackson is not trimmed and barry there is NOT a known complete set around, there's not even a complete series 8 set known to exist, i will put my money where my mouth is on that one!

[Archive]

Posted By: dan mckee

Hi Eric, how long have you been in the hobby? Dan

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

I'm pretty sure that the late Bill Haber completed the T210 set and it was purchased by a well known east coast collector. Some of you know who it is, but I'll respect his privacy on this board. But I think you might lose that bet.

[Archive]

Posted By: Wp

Why would the card in the Vekman sale only sell for 5000? Does he not attract the same caliber of bidders as Robert Edward?

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

He probably doesn't, but the perception that REA's was the finest known copy brought out a whole different tier of bidders who would not have been interested in a lower grade example.

[Archive]

Posted By: eric p.

i have been collecting since 1977, i have only been collecting t210's for a little over 3 years, 312 cards to date which includes the stengel, no jackson of course, the closest completed known set is a hair over 600 cards, i go by proof not hear say, barry i know that your a well respected dealer and a very nice person to deal with, i am not saying that your story is not true but i go by facts, i understand your policy for not wanting to reveal a persons identity but until there is proof that one does exist, it will always be debated, some say bigfoot and ufo's exist, show me the proof and i will show you the money!

[Archive]

Posted By: Art M.

I couldn't resist...

[Archive]

Posted By: Hal Lewis

Boy oh boy, Art...

I haven't laughed that hard in a long time!!!

[Archive]

Posted By: Robert Cook

So Art, where's that T206 book?

I couldn't resist...

[Archive]

Posted By: eric p.

art, i can't stop laughing, i'm in tears, wow, now that's proof!, art would be getting paid right now if it was that "so called" completed t210 set he was showing!

[Archive]

Posted By: Julie

[Archive]

Posted By: Mark Macrae

In the summer of 1996, Mastro & Steinbach auctioned off the estate of legendary hobbyist Bill Haber. Included in this collection was a group of 640 different T-210 Old Mill cards, representing every different known player at the time, or now. The collection breakdown was 20% Execellent, 45% VG-Ex, 25% VG, 7% good, 3% lesser. The minimum bid was $4000. According to Sports Collectors Digest, who printed the results of the sale a few weeks later, the group sold for $13,801. I know the collector who purchased them and he still has them. Much like Barry Sloate, I will respect the privacy of the collector, but if push comes to shove, Barry & I will gladly accept your wager.

[Archive]

Posted By: HW

Yes, the complete set exists as I know who has it. I believe that Mastro auctioned it off 10 years ago or so. It was fairly low grade, but still complete.

Here is a scan of another that I am aware of. It sure looks as though it is much larger than the REA example. The borders on the bottom and both sides look much larger.

[Archive]

Posted By: WP

Hate to say it, but that looks better than the REA copy.

[Archive]

Posted By: eric p.

barry, it looks like i owe YOU and MARK some money, thanks again fellas, who says bigfoot doesn't exist!

[Archive]

Posted By: Trevor Hocking

REA Jackson is "TRIMMED" I know the current owner of the PSA 2 T210 Jackson and it is MUCH MUCH larger than REA's copy. Sorry to say Eric I too know of a complete T210 set.

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul

That other Jackson is much larger, and the coloring on the borders is much more vibrant. Maybe PSA knew what they were doing.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jay Miller

I agree that the REA Jackson appears trimmed and if I had just spent all that money on it I would be a little upset by the comparison.

[Archive]

Posted By: Douglas

The comparison between the two T210s is certainly compelling evidence that the REA "Authentic" once is trimmed.

Doug

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Not to say it is or isn't trimmed...but with the slightly rounded corners what would the motive have been? I could see it being trimmed unscrupulously to make it better condition but, if this is a trim job, it didn't. I have seen many cards trimmed top to bottom to fit in sleeves but not too many from left to right. regards

[Archive]

Posted By: david

it would be nice if most of the people who are strongly asserting the card is absolutely trimmed have actually seen the card in person and inspetcted the card.

[Archive]

Posted By: robert a

I'm definitely not a t210 expert by any means, but cards within the same series of the set have a lot of border variance. Some are skinny and some are fat. Some look painted on with squiggly border lines and some are a more faded color.

The card does have a trimmed look, but I haven't seen it up close and the fact that the borders are small is not enough in a set that has tremendous variance to prove that it is trimmed.

Although, if it was trimmed a long time ago, the corners could have rounded since.

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

Ok look at REA's lot of series 8 T210's. I know they say they are not trimmed but come on just look at these cards. I know that if even one of these cards were in lets say a PSA or SGC number graded holder all we would be reading about is how PSA has graded bad again. Ok they night have been hand cut or trimmed a long time ago but that still dosen't change the fact they where not that way when they where pulled out of the cig boxes!!!! Plus these look a lot like the same cut as the series 8 Jackson. Do you think thay came for the same group Yes they are very rare and worth every penny. But they are not they way you would have found they right out of the box. Boy PSA grades right and they get **** on for that as well.

[Archive]

Posted By: Hal Lewis

Good Point, Snider4prez.

People say that large auction houses get special treatment from PSA...

but it sure would have been BETTER for that particular auction house to have the card GRADED rather than authenticated...

so no favors were given in this instance.

[Archive]

Posted By: eric p.

trevor, how many t210's do you have in your collection?, t210's are just like n172's, they just happen to come in different sizes and are sometimes miscut, cut at an angle, cut short, other times they appear to be handcut from a sheet, i love how all of these opinions come from people who don't even collect t210's, the jackson is rarer than the t206 wagner, t210's come in different sizes, i have some in sgc, psa and gai holders, all of the ones that are slabbed are shorter than some of my raw t210's, the REA jackson card is a beautiful specimen, yes it is shorter than the other jackson and the other jackson is nicer, but you cannot deny it's rarity and beauty, this is the holy grail of t210's and jackson cards!

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

Eric,
Yes the Jackson is one of the greats in our hobby. I was involved with the sale of the PSA 2 Jackson as well as a complete T210 set. I know these cards very well. It sounds like you have great knowledge as well when it comes to T210's, but you said it best when you said many have been hand cut. That's what I'm trying to say the REA T210's where hand cut!!!! The size is not the issue the issue in the wavy cuts and I guess I will take back the size is not the issue thing because it doesn't help the cards to have wavy cuts and being shot at the same time. Was I there when these cards where made NO!!! Do I know the collector who could have cut these down NO!!! Just some common thought. Eric I'm sure you know far more than the average collector about T210's as I'm sure you love them as much as I love N172's but just admit you think these could be hand cut. Dose that take away from the REA Jackson being one of the coolest cards in world, NO WAY. That cards KICKS ASS. And is worth every penny!!!! But it is hand cut!!!

[Archive]

Posted By: Hal Lewis

The grading companies also "think" that these "wavy" cards were also "hand-cut" long ago... but I could care less:





As long as the cards are REAL... just like the T210 Jackson... then the beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Sure, a "hand-cut" Topps card from 1995 would be worthless...

but a "hand-cut" card from the olden days is just something that happened every so often due to primative printing and cutting devices.

[Archive]

Posted By: Trevor Hocking

Hal you said it!!!!! Buy what you like. I have many trimmed N172's of very tough cards some one of a kinds do I care NO!!!! I was just making the point that the card is TRIMMED. HAND CUT, what ever you would like the call it.

[Archive]

Posted By: Hal Lewis

Trevor:

The ONLY time I would be concerned about a vintage "hand-cut" card is when there is a possibility that it came from a poster of some type and was NOT originally printed to be cut as a card.

This would NOT apply to the Jackson.

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian

The issue with the word "trimmed" is the connotation that someone tried to deceive and/or improve the condition of the card.

I would argue that "hand cut" carries a completely different connotation to some people -- the cut is vintage and its purpose was not to deceive and/or improve condition.

I don't know a thing about T210s. But I have many T212-1 cards that were hand cut in 1909. I don't consider them "trimmed" in the sense that the word is used in the hobby today. The cut is vintage and the cut's purpose wasn't to get a higher number on a slab to command more dollars.

Given the connotation that "trimmed" carries, I would not say the REA Jackson is trimmed. I would say it appears to be hand cut. I would say there is a strong likelihood the cut is vintage and not intended to deceive a buyer by unfairly improving the condition.

[Archive]

Posted By: Trevor Hocking

Brian

Sorry but hand cut is trimmed. I get your point we all hate people who try to rip ignorant people off for a quick buck, but we also hate people who massage words to make it sound better to hear. Sorry Hal I know you do that for a living But lets get to it hand cut means someone went and cut these cards with there hands. So if I had a Pro Graded 11 Minty Mint T206 Cobb and cut it with same crappy tool that somebody did in 1911 to get the same result as a T206 hand cut scrap from 1911 it would make it a justified hand cut card to you? I don't get it however you say it, it's still the same thing.