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  #11  
Old 07-22-2018, 12:42 PM
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Default OK Anish...

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Originally Posted by Anish View Post
Im not sure if its that tiny or if people just havent bothered to find and sell them yet.

Of course, the populations of countries like Brazil and Sweden are much smaller than that of the US, so presumably production was lower.

It seems like we discover new sets and cards every day...
You know I love you man, but to compare Sweden to Brazil in terms of size is CRAZY. I think that there are a TON of albums in Brazil, but people do not know what they have. There were 75 million people in Brazil in 1960 (now there are more than 200 million). There were 7 million people in Sweden in 1960 and only 9 million today.

My hypothesis is that many were tossed, but many Brazilian cards are stuck in boxes of "stuff" and when people realize some of the value of these things, they may actually make there way out. In Brazilian, football is not a religion... it is MORE important than religion! So there have to be a ton of cards and albums out there. It is just a matter of sheer numbers. I collect many Latin issues (Cuban, Puerto Rican, Mexican, etc.) and the number of Brazilian cards as of now are way lower than one would reasonably expect in relation to the others.

Here is some numbers of Pele ROOKIES to consider (current PSA number of cards graded):

VAV (Italy) - 7 - This, for me is one of the rarest of Pele rookies
Heinerle (Germany) - 62
Quigol (Brazil) - 29
Rekord (Sweden) - 70
ALFA (Sweden) - 33
Titulares (Brazil) - 23 (including cards #50 and #86)

OK, we would expect a lot of cards from Sweden as the World Cup was held there that year, but given the fact that Brazil is 10X the size, loves/eats/sleeps/dreams in football, it stands to reason that there are MANY more cards out there. I do believe, however, that they are much less common than the equivalent USA baseball issues (because they are roughly half the size in population and the standard of living was lower).

Anyway, these are my thoughts for the day.
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  #12  
Old 07-22-2018, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Ulidia View Post
Interesting to see these trends compared to the soccer memorabilia market here in the UK.


As most of you will be aware, soccer is the primary sport in the UK. By some distance, the main soccer collectible in the UK has, however, been programmes / programs with very little attention paid to cards (unlike parts of continental Europe).


Programmes surged in value in the late 1980s through to the early to mid 2000s and, for the very best programmes, prices could hit five figure sums. However, since then, although those very best programmes have retained their value, there has generally been a considerable decline in value - including for those programmes which, in UK terms, would still be considered as very high end i.e. costing circa $1k to $3k each at their height.


More so, theres a concern as to collectors ageing and few new collectors entering the hobby - in some respects not too dissimilar to some of the discussion in the US - and exacerbated by the decision of an increasing number of soccer clubs to stop producing programmes in favour of online media.

Yes, I frequent many UK auction sites and am typically disappointed with the amount of programs and tickets and the lack of cards available. I, for one, am bullish on soccer cards in general and very much like the early UK cards as there are many to choose from, they are attractive and show some of the early football stars. I also enjoy reading the history of the sport. Steve Bloomer, Billy Meredith, Fatty Foulke, GO Smith, CB Fry and many more. I love the Cope's Clips, Taddy & Co. cards especially.

If people globally get more interested in soccer and its history, you could make a case than that will spike interest in the early UK cards globally. I, of course, am unsure that this will happen, but I am a collector first and don't really care too much as I appreciate the learning, the history and, ultimately, the artifacts themselves. A few of my most prized cards in all of my collections are UK cards.
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  #13  
Old 07-23-2018, 12:56 PM
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$5,000 USD for a Pele card in 2015 was crazy money and 99.99% of collectors would never have done this. Like Scott pointed out, this PSA 9 card was listed for sale on here, and nobody wanted it. Even in 2016, I had a chance to purchase some nice Pele cards for a few thousand, and I thought the seller was out of his mind.

We often spend a lot of time debating over how many of these albums exist in Brazil, but this is something that I care very little about. We need to ask ourselves the following question: what made these soccer cards take off in value in the first place? The answer is PSA. When collectors started seeing these Pele cards in PSA holders, they went bonkers. Do you think those Pele cards on Heritage would have brought in those prices if they had been in SGC holders? Definitely not. Collectors want PSA.

Now the thing that bothers me is that PSA has been closing the door on some of these popular soccer sets. For example, they no longer grade the 1958 Titulares set, and this is very bad. This set has the true rookies of Pele, because it was issued before the Quigols. I've tried to get PSA to reverse their decesion on the Titulares cards, and they have been very polite with me, but so far their answer remains a "no." They are also no longer grading the 1947 Nannina cards, and this set has the Ferenc Pusks rookie. This is another blow for soccer cards.

The question we should be asking here is this: what will PSA do next? What if they decide to stop grading the Quigols? Remember, the #109 Pele has been driving the vintage soccer card market, and if the company shuts the door on this set, then we are in BIG trouble!

That's my take on this whole thing
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  #14  
Old 07-23-2018, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samosa4u View Post
$5,000 USD for a Pele card in 2015 was crazy money and 99.99% of collectors would never have done this. Like Scott pointed out, this PSA 9 card was listed for sale on here, and nobody wanted it. Even in 2016, I had a chance to purchase some nice Pele cards for a few thousand, and I thought the seller was out of his mind.

We often spend a lot of time debating over how many of these albums exist in Brazil, but this is something that I care very little about. We need to ask ourselves the following question: what made these soccer cards take off in value in the first place? The answer is PSA. When investors started seeing these Pele cards in PSA holders, they went bonkers. Do you think those Pele cards on Heritage would have brought in those prices if they had been in SGC holders? Definitely not. Investors want PSA.

Now the thing that bothers me is that PSA has been closing the door on some of these popular soccer sets. For example, they no longer grade the 1958 Titulares set, and this is very bad. This set has the true rookies of Pele, because it was issued before the Quigols. I've tried to get PSA to reverse their decesion on the Titulares cards, and they have been very polite with me, but so far their answer remains a "no." They are also no longer grading the 1947 Nannina cards, and this set has the Ferenc Pusks rookie. This is another blow for soccer cards.

The question we should be asking here is this: what will PSA do next? What if they decide to stop grading the Quigols? Remember, the #109 Pele has been driving the vintage soccer card market, and if the company shuts the door on this set, then we are in BIG trouble!

That's my take on this whole thing
Fixed that for you XD I dont think actual collectors care about the case.

The Jordan Star RC seems to be doing pretty well without PSA. Would it be even more expensive if PSA graded it? Yup. But PSA is not the end all be and I think grading (authentication really) will always exist for most issues. TPGs are not going to turn down money from soccer dealers.
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  #15  
Old 07-23-2018, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aljurgela View Post
You know I love you man, but to compare Sweden to Brazil in terms of size is CRAZY. I think that there are a TON of albums in Brazil, but people do not know what they have. There were 75 million people in Brazil in 1960 (now there are more than 200 million). There were 7 million people in Sweden in 1960 and only 9 million today.

My hypothesis is that many were tossed, but many Brazilian cards are stuck in boxes of "stuff" and when people realize some of the value of these things, they may actually make there way out. In Brazilian, football is not a religion... it is MORE important than religion! So there have to be a ton of cards and albums out there. It is just a matter of sheer numbers. I collect many Latin issues (Cuban, Puerto Rican, Mexican, etc.) and the number of Brazilian cards as of now are way lower than one would reasonably expect in relation to the others.

Here is some numbers of Pele ROOKIES to consider (current PSA number of cards graded):

VAV (Italy) - 7 - This, for me is one of the rarest of Pele rookies
Heinerle (Germany) - 62
Quigol (Brazil) - 29
Rekord (Sweden) - 70
ALFA (Sweden) - 33
Titulares (Brazil) - 23 (including cards #50 and #86)

OK, we would expect a lot of cards from Sweden as the World Cup was held there that year, but given the fact that Brazil is 10X the size, loves/eats/sleeps/dreams in football, it stands to reason that there are MANY more cards out there. I do believe, however, that they are much less common than the equivalent USA baseball issues (because they are roughly half the size in population and the standard of living was lower).

Anyway, these are my thoughts for the day.
The thing that strikes me about your post, Al, besides the good analysis, is that all of the countries listed except Brazil were stable, Western, first-world democracies at the time of issue of these cards and have basically remained that way since. Brazil was a developing country with substantial political instability over the decades. Big populace but poor. Perhaps that difference has something to do with it.
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  #16  
Old 07-23-2018, 07:20 PM
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samosa4u samosa4u is offline
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Originally Posted by Anish View Post
Fixed that for you XD I dont think actual collectors care about the case.
How do we define a collector here? I've been in this hobby for a while and I've met a lot of great folks who call themselves "collectors," however, they start stacking up on certain cards (high-end Gordie Howe rookies, Pele rookies, Mantles, etc.) because they think something great is going to happen down the line. Sounds more like investors to me, right?

In 2003, my good British friend sold a decent-looking Quigol Pele on eBay for $20. If this card was still selling for around that amount, would you still choose it as your avatar? Would we even be discussing it? The same goes for me: would I choose the Bobby Hull rookie as my avatar if NM examples were going for $100? Probably not. I think most of us on here are investors, but that word just bothers a lot of people for some reason, and they avoid using it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Anish View Post

The Jordan Star RC seems to be doing pretty well without PSA.
Don't get me started on the #101 Star Jordan (I could write up pages on it). If PSA were to start grading it, the value will quadruple. PSA has so much power here, and their refusal to grade Star cards is the biggest reason why people keep going after that mass-produced 86' Fleer (and calling it his rookie).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anish View Post

TPGs are not going to turn down money from soccer dealers.
Yeah, and they stand to lose a great deal of money, right? (lol) I can only think of like three sellers who deal in vintage soccer cards. Look at Beckett, for example. They no longer grade the vintage Brazilian figurinhas. This means no Quigol, no Titulares, no Balas - none of them. They don't care.
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  #17  
Old 07-23-2018, 09:37 PM
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My current avatar retails for next to nothing, does that mean I can call myself a collector?
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  #18  
Old 07-23-2018, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
My current avatar retails for next to nothing, does that mean I can call myself a collector?
Everyone here knows you are a hustler, Peter.
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  #19  
Old 07-24-2018, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samosa4u View Post
How do we define a collector here? I've been in this hobby for a while and I've met a lot of great folks who call themselves "collectors," however, they start stacking up on certain cards (high-end Gordie Howe rookies, Pele rookies, Mantles, etc.) because they think something great is going to happen down the line. Sounds more like investors to me, right?

In 2003, my good British friend sold a decent-looking Quigol Pele on eBay for $20. If this card was still selling for around that amount, would you still choose it as your avatar? Would we even be discussing it? The same goes for me: would I choose the Bobby Hull rookie as my avatar if NM examples were going for $100? Probably not. I think most of us on here are investors, but that word just bothers a lot of people for some reason, and they avoid using it.





Don't get me started on the #101 Star Jordan (I could write up pages on it). If PSA were to start grading it, the value will quadruple. PSA has so much power here, and their refusal to grade Star cards is the biggest reason why people keep going after that mass-produced 86' Fleer (and calling it his rookie).



Yeah, and they stand to lose a great deal of money, right? (lol) I can only think of like three sellers who deal in vintage soccer cards. Look at Beckett, for example. They no longer grade the vintage Brazilian figurinhas. This means no Quigol, no Titulares, no Balas - none of them. They don't care.
Yeah, I would still have it as my avatar because its a really cool looking rookie card of an amazing player from a half century ago.

If you want to collect certain cards, you will do so no matter who grades or does not grade it. Thats my point...

Honestly, Id prefer if these cards didnt increase in value so I could afford more of them and in better condition.
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  #20  
Old 07-24-2018, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anish View Post
Yeah, I would still have it as my avatar because its a really cool looking rookie card of an amazing player from a half century ago.
Alright, I'm looking at your website now ... pretty impressive ...

- 1923 V145s (Howie Morenz)
- 1935 National Chicle Bronko Nagurski
- 1951 Parkhurst Gordie Howe
- 1958/59 Quigol Pele
- 1958 Alifabolaget Pele
- 1968 Sicker-Verlag Johan Cruyff
- 1974 Ageducatifs Michel Platini
- 2004 Panini Megacracks Lionel Messi

etc.

And you have all these cards because they are cool-looking rookies of amazing players, right? Alright, got ya!
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