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  #1  
Old 07-20-2018, 10:02 AM
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Default World Record Prices for Soccer Cards!

Pele Rookies sell for $33.6k (Quigol - PSA 8) & $26.4k (ALFA - PSA 8.5).

https://sports.ha.com/itm/olympic-ca...kedLots-101116


https://sports.ha.com/itm/olympic-ca...kedLots-101116

Wow! I always thought that these were undervalued when they were a couple of grand, but this is WAY more than I expected. Especially because the PSA 8 Quigol is really not his rookie and that fact that it has album residue on the back and should probably grade a PSA 2 or 3 (though the image is pretty good). Still, super high prices for these cards in my estimation.
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Old 07-20-2018, 06:42 PM
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Where do you see residue on the Quigol?

And yeah, high prices. But I think they will end up looking like bargains.
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  #3  
Old 07-21-2018, 12:43 AM
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Where do you see residue on the Quigol?

And yeah, high prices. But I think they will end up looking like bargains.
The pattern on the back of the card should not be there. The cards are blank backed with writing. I will try to post other back tomorrow.
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  #4  
Old 07-21-2018, 11:54 AM
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I sold an Alifa PSA 9 in 2015 for $5K and thought I did well with it. I even had it posted here for a while with no interest. Damn - wish I had that one back!!
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Old 07-21-2018, 11:58 AM
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Default Wow!

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I sold an Alifa PSA 9 in 2015 for $5K and thought I did well with it. I even had it posted here for a while with no interest. Damn - wish I had that one back!!
Yeah... that was a super high price back that... you did do quite well... I bought an ALFA 8.5 for less than $2k at an auction like three years ago... WOW... but I do not think that this will be a straight line up... There is more interest now because of the World Cup... things will likely come down to earth for the next couple of years and then go up again. I do, however, think that the days of $2k high grade Pele rookies are over.
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Old 07-21-2018, 05:31 PM
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I sold an Alifa PSA 9 in 2015 for $5K and thought I did well with it. I even had it posted here for a while with no interest. Damn - wish I had that one back!!
Damn...I wish I was collecting soccer then
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  #7  
Old 07-22-2018, 02:56 AM
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Interesting to see these trends compared to the soccer memorabilia market here in the UK.


As most of you will be aware, soccer is the primary sport in the UK. By some distance, the main soccer collectible in the UK has, however, been programmes / programs with very little attention paid to cards (unlike parts of continental Europe).


Programmes surged in value in the late 1980s through to the early to mid 2000s and, for the very best programmes, prices could hit five figure sums. However, since then, although those very best programmes have retained their value, there has generally been a considerable decline in value - including for those programmes which, in UK terms, would still be considered as very high end i.e. costing circa $1k to $3k each at their height.


More so, theres a concern as to collectors ageing and few new collectors entering the hobby - in some respects not too dissimilar to some of the discussion in the US - and exacerbated by the decision of an increasing number of soccer clubs to stop producing programmes in favour of online media.
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Old 07-22-2018, 10:03 AM
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At least before the Messi/Ronaldo era, the supply of soccer cards seems so tiny compared to the so-called major sports that if there is even a modest uptick in demand, I would think that could translate into substantial price increases. Of course that's a big if.
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Old 07-22-2018, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
At least before the Messi/Ronaldo era, the supply of soccer cards seems so tiny compared to the so-called major sports that if there is even a modest uptick in demand, I would think that could translate into substantial price increases. Of course that's a big if.
Im not sure if its that tiny or if people just havent bothered to find and sell them yet.

Of course, the populations of countries like Brazil and Sweden are much smaller than that of the US, so presumably production was lower.

It seems like we discover new sets and cards every day...
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Old 07-22-2018, 12:22 PM
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Im not sure if its that tiny or if people just havent bothered to find and sell them yet.

Of course, the populations of countries like Brazil and Sweden are much smaller than that of the US, so presumably production was lower.

It seems like we discover new sets and cards every day...
Just to pick 1991 at random, I would be very confident that the ratio of Chipper Jones rookies to Zidane rookies is close to infinity.
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  #11  
Old 07-22-2018, 12:42 PM
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Default OK Anish...

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Originally Posted by Anish View Post
Im not sure if its that tiny or if people just havent bothered to find and sell them yet.

Of course, the populations of countries like Brazil and Sweden are much smaller than that of the US, so presumably production was lower.

It seems like we discover new sets and cards every day...
You know I love you man, but to compare Sweden to Brazil in terms of size is CRAZY. I think that there are a TON of albums in Brazil, but people do not know what they have. There were 75 million people in Brazil in 1960 (now there are more than 200 million). There were 7 million people in Sweden in 1960 and only 9 million today.

My hypothesis is that many were tossed, but many Brazilian cards are stuck in boxes of "stuff" and when people realize some of the value of these things, they may actually make there way out. In Brazilian, football is not a religion... it is MORE important than religion! So there have to be a ton of cards and albums out there. It is just a matter of sheer numbers. I collect many Latin issues (Cuban, Puerto Rican, Mexican, etc.) and the number of Brazilian cards as of now are way lower than one would reasonably expect in relation to the others.

Here is some numbers of Pele ROOKIES to consider (current PSA number of cards graded):

VAV (Italy) - 7 - This, for me is one of the rarest of Pele rookies
Heinerle (Germany) - 62
Quigol (Brazil) - 29
Rekord (Sweden) - 70
ALFA (Sweden) - 33
Titulares (Brazil) - 23 (including cards #50 and #86)

OK, we would expect a lot of cards from Sweden as the World Cup was held there that year, but given the fact that Brazil is 10X the size, loves/eats/sleeps/dreams in football, it stands to reason that there are MANY more cards out there. I do believe, however, that they are much less common than the equivalent USA baseball issues (because they are roughly half the size in population and the standard of living was lower).

Anyway, these are my thoughts for the day.
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  #12  
Old 07-22-2018, 12:50 PM
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Default Yes....

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Originally Posted by Ulidia View Post
Interesting to see these trends compared to the soccer memorabilia market here in the UK.


As most of you will be aware, soccer is the primary sport in the UK. By some distance, the main soccer collectible in the UK has, however, been programmes / programs with very little attention paid to cards (unlike parts of continental Europe).


Programmes surged in value in the late 1980s through to the early to mid 2000s and, for the very best programmes, prices could hit five figure sums. However, since then, although those very best programmes have retained their value, there has generally been a considerable decline in value - including for those programmes which, in UK terms, would still be considered as very high end i.e. costing circa $1k to $3k each at their height.


More so, theres a concern as to collectors ageing and few new collectors entering the hobby - in some respects not too dissimilar to some of the discussion in the US - and exacerbated by the decision of an increasing number of soccer clubs to stop producing programmes in favour of online media.

Yes, I frequent many UK auction sites and am typically disappointed with the amount of programs and tickets and the lack of cards available. I, for one, am bullish on soccer cards in general and very much like the early UK cards as there are many to choose from, they are attractive and show some of the early football stars. I also enjoy reading the history of the sport. Steve Bloomer, Billy Meredith, Fatty Foulke, GO Smith, CB Fry and many more. I love the Cope's Clips, Taddy & Co. cards especially.

If people globally get more interested in soccer and its history, you could make a case than that will spike interest in the early UK cards globally. I, of course, am unsure that this will happen, but I am a collector first and don't really care too much as I appreciate the learning, the history and, ultimately, the artifacts themselves. A few of my most prized cards in all of my collections are UK cards.
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  #13  
Old 07-23-2018, 12:56 PM
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$5,000 USD for a Pele card in 2015 was crazy money and 99.99% of collectors would never have done this. Like Scott pointed out, this PSA 9 card was listed for sale on here, and nobody wanted it. Even in 2016, I had a chance to purchase some nice Pele cards for a few thousand, and I thought the seller was out of his mind.

We often spend a lot of time debating over how many of these albums exist in Brazil, but this is something that I care very little about. We need to ask ourselves the following question: what made these soccer cards take off in value in the first place? The answer is PSA. When collectors started seeing these Pele cards in PSA holders, they went bonkers. Do you think those Pele cards on Heritage would have brought in those prices if they had been in SGC holders? Definitely not. Collectors want PSA.

Now the thing that bothers me is that PSA has been closing the door on some of these popular soccer sets. For example, they no longer grade the 1958 Titulares set, and this is very bad. This set has the true rookies of Pele, because it was issued before the Quigols. I've tried to get PSA to reverse their decesion on the Titulares cards, and they have been very polite with me, but so far their answer remains a "no." They are also no longer grading the 1947 Nannina cards, and this set has the Ferenc Pusks rookie. This is another blow for soccer cards.

The question we should be asking here is this: what will PSA do next? What if they decide to stop grading the Quigols? Remember, the #109 Pele has been driving the vintage soccer card market, and if the company shuts the door on this set, then we are in BIG trouble!

That's my take on this whole thing
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  #14  
Old 07-23-2018, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by samosa4u View Post
$5,000 USD for a Pele card in 2015 was crazy money and 99.99% of collectors would never have done this. Like Scott pointed out, this PSA 9 card was listed for sale on here, and nobody wanted it. Even in 2016, I had a chance to purchase some nice Pele cards for a few thousand, and I thought the seller was out of his mind.

We often spend a lot of time debating over how many of these albums exist in Brazil, but this is something that I care very little about. We need to ask ourselves the following question: what made these soccer cards take off in value in the first place? The answer is PSA. When investors started seeing these Pele cards in PSA holders, they went bonkers. Do you think those Pele cards on Heritage would have brought in those prices if they had been in SGC holders? Definitely not. Investors want PSA.

Now the thing that bothers me is that PSA has been closing the door on some of these popular soccer sets. For example, they no longer grade the 1958 Titulares set, and this is very bad. This set has the true rookies of Pele, because it was issued before the Quigols. I've tried to get PSA to reverse their decesion on the Titulares cards, and they have been very polite with me, but so far their answer remains a "no." They are also no longer grading the 1947 Nannina cards, and this set has the Ferenc Pusks rookie. This is another blow for soccer cards.

The question we should be asking here is this: what will PSA do next? What if they decide to stop grading the Quigols? Remember, the #109 Pele has been driving the vintage soccer card market, and if the company shuts the door on this set, then we are in BIG trouble!

That's my take on this whole thing
Fixed that for you XD I dont think actual collectors care about the case.

The Jordan Star RC seems to be doing pretty well without PSA. Would it be even more expensive if PSA graded it? Yup. But PSA is not the end all be and I think grading (authentication really) will always exist for most issues. TPGs are not going to turn down money from soccer dealers.
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Old 07-23-2018, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by aljurgela View Post
You know I love you man, but to compare Sweden to Brazil in terms of size is CRAZY. I think that there are a TON of albums in Brazil, but people do not know what they have. There were 75 million people in Brazil in 1960 (now there are more than 200 million). There were 7 million people in Sweden in 1960 and only 9 million today.

My hypothesis is that many were tossed, but many Brazilian cards are stuck in boxes of "stuff" and when people realize some of the value of these things, they may actually make there way out. In Brazilian, football is not a religion... it is MORE important than religion! So there have to be a ton of cards and albums out there. It is just a matter of sheer numbers. I collect many Latin issues (Cuban, Puerto Rican, Mexican, etc.) and the number of Brazilian cards as of now are way lower than one would reasonably expect in relation to the others.

Here is some numbers of Pele ROOKIES to consider (current PSA number of cards graded):

VAV (Italy) - 7 - This, for me is one of the rarest of Pele rookies
Heinerle (Germany) - 62
Quigol (Brazil) - 29
Rekord (Sweden) - 70
ALFA (Sweden) - 33
Titulares (Brazil) - 23 (including cards #50 and #86)

OK, we would expect a lot of cards from Sweden as the World Cup was held there that year, but given the fact that Brazil is 10X the size, loves/eats/sleeps/dreams in football, it stands to reason that there are MANY more cards out there. I do believe, however, that they are much less common than the equivalent USA baseball issues (because they are roughly half the size in population and the standard of living was lower).

Anyway, these are my thoughts for the day.
The thing that strikes me about your post, Al, besides the good analysis, is that all of the countries listed except Brazil were stable, Western, first-world democracies at the time of issue of these cards and have basically remained that way since. Brazil was a developing country with substantial political instability over the decades. Big populace but poor. Perhaps that difference has something to do with it.
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Old 07-23-2018, 07:20 PM
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Fixed that for you XD I dont think actual collectors care about the case.
How do we define a collector here? I've been in this hobby for a while and I've met a lot of great folks who call themselves "collectors," however, they start stacking up on certain cards (high-end Gordie Howe rookies, Pele rookies, Mantles, etc.) because they think something great is going to happen down the line. Sounds more like investors to me, right?

In 2003, my good British friend sold a decent-looking Quigol Pele on eBay for $20. If this card was still selling for around that amount, would you still choose it as your avatar? Would we even be discussing it? The same goes for me: would I choose the Bobby Hull rookie as my avatar if NM examples were going for $100? Probably not. I think most of us on here are investors, but that word just bothers a lot of people for some reason, and they avoid using it.



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The Jordan Star RC seems to be doing pretty well without PSA.
Don't get me started on the #101 Star Jordan (I could write up pages on it). If PSA were to start grading it, the value will quadruple. PSA has so much power here, and their refusal to grade Star cards is the biggest reason why people keep going after that mass-produced 86' Fleer (and calling it his rookie).

Quote:
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TPGs are not going to turn down money from soccer dealers.
Yeah, and they stand to lose a great deal of money, right? (lol) I can only think of like three sellers who deal in vintage soccer cards. Look at Beckett, for example. They no longer grade the vintage Brazilian figurinhas. This means no Quigol, no Titulares, no Balas - none of them. They don't care.
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  #17  
Old 07-23-2018, 09:37 PM
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My current avatar retails for next to nothing, does that mean I can call myself a collector?
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Old 07-23-2018, 09:55 PM
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My current avatar retails for next to nothing, does that mean I can call myself a collector?
Everyone here knows you are a hustler, Peter.
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  #19  
Old 07-24-2018, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by samosa4u View Post
How do we define a collector here? I've been in this hobby for a while and I've met a lot of great folks who call themselves "collectors," however, they start stacking up on certain cards (high-end Gordie Howe rookies, Pele rookies, Mantles, etc.) because they think something great is going to happen down the line. Sounds more like investors to me, right?

In 2003, my good British friend sold a decent-looking Quigol Pele on eBay for $20. If this card was still selling for around that amount, would you still choose it as your avatar? Would we even be discussing it? The same goes for me: would I choose the Bobby Hull rookie as my avatar if NM examples were going for $100? Probably not. I think most of us on here are investors, but that word just bothers a lot of people for some reason, and they avoid using it.





Don't get me started on the #101 Star Jordan (I could write up pages on it). If PSA were to start grading it, the value will quadruple. PSA has so much power here, and their refusal to grade Star cards is the biggest reason why people keep going after that mass-produced 86' Fleer (and calling it his rookie).



Yeah, and they stand to lose a great deal of money, right? (lol) I can only think of like three sellers who deal in vintage soccer cards. Look at Beckett, for example. They no longer grade the vintage Brazilian figurinhas. This means no Quigol, no Titulares, no Balas - none of them. They don't care.
Yeah, I would still have it as my avatar because its a really cool looking rookie card of an amazing player from a half century ago.

If you want to collect certain cards, you will do so no matter who grades or does not grade it. Thats my point...

Honestly, Id prefer if these cards didnt increase in value so I could afford more of them and in better condition.
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Old 07-24-2018, 01:55 PM
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Yeah, I would still have it as my avatar because its a really cool looking rookie card of an amazing player from a half century ago.
Alright, I'm looking at your website now ... pretty impressive ...

- 1923 V145s (Howie Morenz)
- 1935 National Chicle Bronko Nagurski
- 1951 Parkhurst Gordie Howe
- 1958/59 Quigol Pele
- 1958 Alifabolaget Pele
- 1968 Sicker-Verlag Johan Cruyff
- 1974 Ageducatifs Michel Platini
- 2004 Panini Megacracks Lionel Messi

etc.

And you have all these cards because they are cool-looking rookies of amazing players, right? Alright, got ya!
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Old 07-24-2018, 03:52 PM
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I don't know if soccer rookies are defined as tightly as other sports but isn't Cruyff's rookie the 1967 Palirex? Not saying anything negative about the Sicker Verlag, I paid a lot of money for one myself.
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Old 07-24-2018, 04:11 PM
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The thing that strikes me about your post, Al, besides the good analysis, is that all of the countries listed except Brazil were stable, Western, first-world democracies at the time of issue of these cards and have basically remained that way since. Brazil was a developing country with substantial political instability over the decades. Big populace but poor. Perhaps that difference has something to do with it.
Big populace, but poor. Absolutely the case. However, you have seen these cards? They are slightly more than paper and must have been extremely cheap to make.. why? Because even the poor could afford them. That is my hypothesis. I am not 100% sure, but that is my thought. Still whatever the numbers, they will pale in comparison to the number of 1950's Topps baseball cards... I just think that there will be substantially more found when/if word gets out of the value and the TPGs continue to grade them. It is still shocking to me that the VAV number is so low. Significantly more scarce than I have expected prior to researching the population reports.
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Old 07-24-2018, 05:05 PM
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I don't know if soccer rookies are defined as tightly as other sports but isn't Cruyff's rookie the 1967 Palirex? Not saying anything negative about the Sicker Verlag, I paid a lot of money for one myself.
Both the Sicker-Verlag and Palirex are his rookies. They came out 67/68.
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Old 07-24-2018, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by samosa4u View Post
$5,000 USD for a Pele card in 2015 was crazy money and 99.99% of collectors would never have done this.

]The answer is PSA[/b]. When collectors started seeing these Pele cards in PSA holders, they went bonkers. Do you think those Pele cards on Heritage would have brought in those prices if they had been in SGC holders? Definitely not. Collectors want PSA.

Now the thing that bothers me is that PSA has been closing the door on some of these popular soccer sets. For example, they no longer grade the 1958 Titulares set, and this is very bad. This set has the true rookies of Pele, because it was issued before the Quigols. I've tried to get PSA to reverse their decesion on the Titulares cards, and they have been very polite with me, but so far their answer remains a "no." They are also no longer grading the 1947 Nannina cards, and this set has the Ferenc Pusks rookie. This is another blow for soccer cards.

The question we should be asking here is this: what will PSA do next? What if they decide to stop grading the Quigols? Remember, the #109 Pele has been driving the vintage soccer card market, and if the company shuts the door on this set, then we are in BIG trouble!

That's my take on this whole thing
Very good points... and I agree on almost all fronts. I venture to say that I am one of the largest soccer card collectors in the USA and have graded nearly exclusively with SGC as I prefer the holder and the people.

While I admit that I am primarily a collector and do not plan to sell anytime soon, when you are buying things you should always think about the exit and therefore, I am also an investor (and especially in what I deem "golden" cards - rookies of the top cards where I have many copies in various grades).

When I sell my dupes on eBay, I frequently get questions on why they are not PSA graded... this leads me to believe that you are correct that the market generally wants PSA versus SGC or others.

I have roughly 1,000 cards that I am thinking of submitting to PSA just to see how it goes. It may be good for the hobby to get a few Cruyff Palirex rookies in PSA holders (right now there is just one) and some other key rookies so that at least some of these cards are "out there". I do that that PSA will likely want to be long on the soccer trade as it is a growing market and should bring more international business, however, so let's see.

Frankly, while I love the guys at SGC, it has been extremely painful to educate them and get the cards in their system (let alone the custom cuts). Frequently they have my submission for more than 6 months. I live with it because I am not a flipper and I really like the holder and to support the guys there, but I have questioned myself about it potentially being a fools errand in the long run.

I would like to know why PSA stopped grading the Titualares cards. I have a few that they graded and they seem appropriately graded (PSA1s and PSA 2's) and while they rate them as hand cut (probably out of caution), I do not believe that they were. Do you happen to know why they stopped grading these cards. That would be important (to me at least). I have to believe that these are isolated cases, although quite unfortunate ones given the importance of the cards.
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Old 07-25-2018, 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by aljurgela View Post
I just think that there will be substantially more found when/if word gets out of the value and the TPGs continue to grade them. It is still shocking to me that the VAV number is so low.
This is an important point. I have almost zero knowledge of cards but the more traditional soccer collectibles were incredibly hard to find from Southern and Central America through the 1980s and 1990s which was frustrating for collectors due to the World Cups being held in Uruguay in 1930, Brazil in 1950 and Chile in 1962.

Items such as programs and tickets from those tournaments were incredibly hard to find and when they did come up for auction, commandes high prices.

However, a number of high profile auctions (esp. by Sothebys in London in Q4 1999 which included one of the two finest collections of 1930 World Cup memorabilia) helped to highlight the money that could be made from such items. The result over the subsequent two decades has been a deluge of memorabilia from these regions and focused on these World Cup - some of the memorabilia has been high quality, some low quality and much is fake (esp early poster and tickets).

The net result, unsurprisingly, has been a sharp drop in prices, with the fake items leading to contagion in terms of prices realised for even the very good items with solid provenance.
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Old 07-25-2018, 08:48 AM
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Alright, I'm looking at your website now ... pretty impressive ...

- 1923 V145s (Howie Morenz)
- 1935 National Chicle Bronko Nagurski
- 1951 Parkhurst Gordie Howe
- 1958/59 Quigol Pele
- 1958 Alifabolaget Pele
- 1968 Sicker-Verlag Johan Cruyff
- 1974 Ageducatifs Michel Platini
- 2004 Panini Megacracks Lionel Messi

etc.

And you have all these cards because they are cool-looking rookies of amazing players, right? Alright, got ya!
Do you happen to notice that the hockey cards are part of SETS? I’m even doing the Quigol set with all the “worthless” commons.

Yeah, I collect cards that I like. For the set, player, time, etc. not because a TPG grades it or not.

Sorry it doesn’t fit your narrative. Nothing wrong with investing and/or reselling. But without collectors cards have no value. Not without PSA.

Last edited by Anish; 07-25-2018 at 08:52 AM.
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Old 07-25-2018, 09:26 AM
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I think Star BKB is a perfect example of the PSA mindset. They are so dominant that they don't see the need to expand the list of issues they will grade if it's at all controversial. On the non-sports side they are notorious for kicking back cards that aren't already in their database because it's just not worth the time for them to do the necessary research.
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Old 07-26-2018, 02:54 AM
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I don't know if soccer rookies are defined as tightly as other sports but isn't Cruyff's rookie the 1967 Palirex? Not saying anything negative about the Sicker Verlag, I paid a lot of money for one myself.
A good time for my first post as I've been looking at which Cruyff rookie to pick up down the line.

Isn't the Palirex collection from the 68/69 season as it features all the teams taking part in the 68/69 European Cup? There is no way they would have known who all the champions would be at the start of the season in 67. For example Juventus were Italian champions in 66/67, Milan in 67/68 but Milan feature in the collection. Likewise both Manchester clubs feature as Man Utd were European Champions in 67/68, Man City English champions in the same year so they both qualified for the 68/69 European Cup. That would mean the earliest it could be from is May 1968?

I saw the Sicker Verlag Bundesliga ASSE 1968 album has a fixture list in the back of the album that has all the results from the first half of the season & lets you fill in the results for the return fixtures from January on. That would mean the earliest it could be from is January 1968?
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Old 07-26-2018, 07:58 AM
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Big populace, but poor. Absolutely the case. However, you have seen these cards? They are slightly more than paper and must have been extremely cheap to make.. why? Because even the poor could afford them. That is my hypothesis. I am not 100% sure, but that is my thought. Still whatever the numbers, they will pale in comparison to the number of 1950's Topps baseball cards... I just think that there will be substantially more found when/if word gets out of the value and the TPGs continue to grade them. It is still shocking to me that the VAV number is so low. Significantly more scarce than I have expected prior to researching the population reports.
The stock makes card survival even less likely. Look at the paper Cuban issues. A Montiel that isn’t near trashed is rare.

I am sure more will emerge. That has been the case with my beloved Argentinean boxing issues. When sellers realized there’s a US market for the cards they started selling on eBay and now you can find the more common issues regularly.
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Last edited by Exhibitman; 07-26-2018 at 08:00 AM.
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Old 07-26-2018, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Exhibitman View Post
The stock makes card survival even less likely. Look at the paper Cuban issues. A Montiel that isnt near trashed is rare.

I am sure more will emerge. That has been the case with my beloved Argentinean boxing issues. When sellers realized theres a US market for the cards they started selling on eBay and now you can find the more common issues regularly.
Agree with you that survival in good condition is near impossible, but if housed in the album, I think that many will make it. Noticed the same thing for the Argentine soccer cards. They are more available, but still very tough to get.
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