Should Seller Reimburse Buyer For Grading Fees?

[Buythatcard]

I recently sold a card that the buyer submitted to a grading service. The card turned out to have evidence of trimming. It was not something that would have been picked up by the naked eye. My policy is to send a full refund along with any shipping costs that the buyer paid to ship it back to me. That's exactly what I did.

Seller asked to be reimbursed for any fees that he had to pay to the grading company. In addition he asked me to refund higher shipping costs than he paid. I told him that I could not be responsible for any grading fees that he had. I paid him whatever he paid for the cards plus the exact shipping costs.

He was not satisifed and left a neutral feedback stating that I did not pay for his grading fees or shipping costs. Its true that I did not pay for his shipping fees but it was a lie about the shipping.

How do other sellers deal with a card that comes back graded trimmed or fake? Do you reimburse the buyer for their grading fees?

[WarHoundR69]

Happened to me once as a buyer. The seller refunded me my purchase price & postage costs. I did not ask for a refund on grading fees. I felt that was my choice (Grading), so I was responsible for that expense.

[Scott T]

I would think you did the right thing by refunding the purchase price and the shipping. Had you stated (or implied) that the card would get a numeric grade, then the grading fess should be refunded as well.

I am certain you did not do this, but I despise listings with the phrase "PSA 9?" as part of the description...especially if the seller is selling other recently graded cards.

[slantycouch]

Did the buyer see scans of the card? Especially if so, we all take risks when buying a card and the buyer should have known that risk. I think it's impressive that you refunded the original purchase after it being out of your hands for that period of time. It was the buyers choice to have it graded. I don't see why you should be responsible for that.

[Matt]

IMO it depends on the listing - if you guaranteed it would grade then I can see you needing to cover the grading costs as well.

[Leon]

If you said you guarantee it will grade, then yes. If you didn't mention grading then it was on him and he pays those fees. You didn't ask him to send it in. That being the case I might mitigate damages depending on other things in the transaction, and pay half.

This morning I am returning some cards that were grossly miss described. I am taking a hit too as I should have asked more questions. You did the right thing on this one with the caveat of the wording in the description.

Sellers not being able to leave neutral or negative feedback is a joke.

Howard you are not responsible for their grading fees. I have bought many cards from you in the past and the descriptions and every part of the auction are always on cue. I think 1 time I got an American Caramel card from you and upon recieving seen the bottom was trimmed. Never had an issue returning and ended up buying about 7-8 T206's that night from you. I would not worry about it. He could have left Negative feedback, and its our job as collectors and buyers to look at these item before sending them off. I would not send an obvious trim in to grading. It sounds like a guy who can't take blame to me.

[Jacklitsch]

I guess I will be a minority of one on this issue and say that you should reimburse for grading fees.

When you listed the card you implicity represented that it was authentic and unaltered. That was proven not to be the case. Depending on the card (and we don't know what it was) you might have had a reasonable expectation that someone buying the card was going to have it graded. With grading so prevelant these days that could be a safe assumption especially if it was a high end or valuable card.

If I were in your position I likely would reimburse for the fees. BTJM

[Ladder7]

Grading is subjective. I submitted a pack-fresh card from a sealed box and unquestionable dealer five years ago. The skittish grader returned it 'Trimmed". I later resub'd and received a 9. It's all a crap shoot.

As far as refunding., This buyer rolled the dice hoping you'd cave. If he truly felt you wronged him, you would've been Neg'd.

IMO, To best protect excellent feedback, sellers should only sell holdered cards.

[barrysloate]

Because the card came back trimmed it wouldn't be a bad idea to reimburse the buyer. Nobody likes to purchase a card and then discover later it was trimmed. Even if you are not technically obligated to pay his grading fees, I feel in this case you are buying some good will by doing so.

[JamesGallo]

I once bought a card that turned out to be trimmed and was in the same position. The seller refused to pay me back the grading fees if I returned the card. That being said I kept the card for several reasons.

Anyway to answer your question I would need more information.

If I understand this correctly, you gave him all his money back and let him keep the card? If that is the case I would assume that it was not a very expensive card. In this case I think you should not be held responsible for the grading fees as the buyer pretty much got a free card.

If the card was being returned to you and it was coming backed slabbed then I think you should have paid the grading fees. As far as shipping to the grading company as well I think that in on the buyer as it is unlikely he sent in 1 single card and therefore adding the shipping for 1 card really wouldn't matter.

I would also agree that unless you stated the card was trimmed I would assume a rare card by a known dealer would be unaltered.

Anyway just my thoughts based on the info I have now.

James G

[steve B]

Here's how the stamp auction places handle it. Expertising is a notch down from grading in most cases, but recently they have begun including grades for an extra fee. This policy is from Apfelbaum, but most of the auction places use a similar policy.

The short of it is - They refund purchase price only, and have to be informed in writing before the auction that it will be sent of for expertising.

EACH LOT IS SOLD AS GENUINE BUT WHEN IN THE OPINION OF ANY COMPETENT AUTHORITY MUTUALLY ACCEPTABLE TO US AND THE PURCHASER (A "MUTUALLY ACCEPTED AUTHORITY”) THE LOT IS DECLARED OTHERWISE, THE PURCHASE PRICE WILL BE REFUNDED IN FULL; PROVIDED, HOWEVER, THAT ADVANCE WRITTEN NOTICE OF INTENTION TO SEND FOR EXPERTIZATION MUST BE SUBMITTED BY BUYER BEFORE THE SALE AND EITHER (i) THE LOT IS RECEIVED BY US WITHIN A PERIOD OF FOUR WEEKS AFTER THE DATE OF THE AUCTION, OR (ii) WHERE AN OPINION IS NOT EXPECTED WITHIN FOUR WEEKS, WRITTEN NOTIFICATION THAT THE LOT HAS BEEN SUBMITTED FOR AN OPINION IS RECEIVED BY US WITHIN THIS PERIOD. ALL EXPENSES INCURRED SHALL BE BORNE BY THE PURCHASER WHETHER OR NOT THE ITEM IS DECLARED GENUINE OR NOT GENUINE OR NOT AS DESCRIBED.

Steve

[drdduet]

Did the buyer alter the card and then send it in to get graded. I'm afraid this is happening more than we notice.

Make good scans and detailed measurements prior to sending card to a buyer who intends to get a card graded. It sucks when you sell a card to a buyer who power erases a pencil mark or trims the card and then the card only gets an authentic grade and the buyer wants a refund.

[kmac32]

Depends on how you listed the card. If you guaranteed that it would get a grade other than authentic the yes on the grading fees, otherwise no.

[sportscardtheory]

No WAY should you have to pay the grading fees. Just like anything you buy in life, you bought what you bought and that's it. He didn't buy a card with a graded guarantee, he bought a raw card. I would have eBay take down the feedback as he was trying to extort you for more money.

[GoldenAge50s]

I think the Seller did all he was obligated to do. As long as nothing in the auction implied the card would Third Party grade, why should a Seller be held responsible for what a Buyer does w/ a card after the tranny is completed?

What if Buyer got a 6 & was expecting a 7?---is that grounds for wanting his fee back? How far can one expect to take a sale?

I say he did as much, or more, than required.

[egbeachley]

I disagree with Steve. Buyer got a discount because it was raw. He would not have sent you extra cash if it graded well.

Plus what if it was a $2 card and he expected $15 in grading fees back. Or a $100 card and he spent $100+ for express service? Or maybe it did grade, but lower than expected and put it in those non-slabbed authentic holders.

[Jacklitsch]

J. Owen Wilson 1911 T205 Gold Border sold for less than $20 including shipping. Basically a beater.

Seller's description:

"See the scan for the condition of this card.

Please look at the scan carefully. Scan does not always pick up the flaws. If you have any additional questions regarding the condition of the card, please EMail me and I'll do my best to answer your questions."

In this particular instance, now that I've seen the card, I might be inclined to tell the buyer no. But, with that said, looking at the seller's 20,000+ 100% feedback; over 5,500 in the last year alone, it might have been worth it to eat the grading fee. Couldn't have been much more than $8 or so. That single gray feedback is a blemish to what is otherwise a perfect record.

Not worth it IMO.

[teetwoohsix]

I've seen sellers make a statement to the effect of"I am not a grader,have not sent these cards to be graded,and don't know how or if they will grade",or something to that effect.I can see how this could make the buyer hesitant,but it also clears the seller in a situation like this-JMO

I feel the grading fees are a hit that the buyer takes upon himself in any situation where he/she sends ANY raw card to be graded-and this,my friends,is why I prefer to only buy slabbed cards(by a reputable slabber)....

[jbbama]

Grading was his choice, as dissapointed as he may be, that isn't your fault. You did right by him in my book. (unless you gauranteed it to grade)

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Jacklitsch

J. Owen Wilson 1911 T205 Gold Border sold for less than $20 including shipping. Basically a beater.

Seller's description:

"See the scan for the condition of this card.

Please look at the scan carefully. Scan does not always pick up the flaws. If you have any additional questions regarding the condition of the card, please EMail me and I'll do my best to answer your questions."

In this particular instance, now that I've seen the card, I might be inclined to tell the buyer no. But, with that said, looking at the seller's 20,000+ 100% feedback; over 5,500 in the last year alone, it might have been worth it to eat the grading fee. Couldn't have been much more than $8 or so. That single gray feedback is a blemish to what is otherwise a perfect record.

Not worth it IMO.

Ebay's feedback system is totally flawed. I was speaking with a good friend very recently. He is someone we all know and I have never, ever heard anyone in the whole hobby say one bad word about him. He has at least 15000 perfect feedback. NO neutrals, no negs....perfect. Recently someone stiffed him on 5 ebay auctions. Knowing he couldn't give a negative, not that he would have, he asked his ebay account manager if he could let other people know, in the remarks section of the feedback place, about this guy renegging. The account manager said yes he could but the guy that didn't pay could give him 5 negatives if he does AND HE DIDN'T even pay for the lots he won. On this point I have to agree with Steve, even though I disagree with the whole extortion (that's what ebay makes it be, in reality) situation. I would give back $10 to not worry about a neg.....but I absolutely see folks not wanting to do that. I just have so many other issues it's not worth $10 for me to dwell on it......

[Buythatcard]

Just a few facts about this transaction.

Cost of card was $30.00 plus $2.50 S/H fees.

Buyer wanted the above costs refunded plus $2.50 for shipping it back even though he paid $1.22 plus he wanted $11.00 for the grading fees.

I refunded $33.72 which included the cost of the card plus S/H fees that I charged him plus $1.22 for the shipping costs he paid for. He wanted $46.00. He returned the card to me.

I was considering paying back the grading fees until he tried to make an extra buck off me on the return shipping costs. I know its a small amount but its just a matter of principle.

To top things off, the neutral feedback that he left was for another card that he won. It wasn't even the one he sent to have graded.

I send off all this info to eBay. Lets see what they have to say about. I'll probably get a computer generated email.

Thanks for all of your opinions.

[painthistorian]

I feel E bay's policies are so out of line that feedback is meaningless anymore. Unscrupulous buyers can manipulate good sellers and e bay does not do anything about it...I do not feel in any way you need to reimburse grading fees and do not worry about the neutral, block this guy from bidding going forward.

E bay also allowing the DSR to be manipulated by buyers allowing 1 and 2 stars for sellers that have great feedback especially for S&H, often even when it is reasonable...you can have the other 3 categories near perfect and then S&H if not given free is often an excuse for buyers to "bully" sellers.

[JamesGallo]

I think the buyer was being a bit of a dick and greedy too.

That being said it sounds like you got back a graded card so I think the grading should have been covered by the refund but I totally understand your principle point as well.

As Leon said the feedback system is total BS and we all know that. The problem is that with the DSR not refunding a guy $10 could cost you a lot more with a neg and a lower DSR. I had a guy claim to not get his $10 worth of crap. He never asked me for a refund because he knew I had a DC number and he would have lost the case. 6 months later my DSR are still lower then they should be cause this ass gave me 2 negs. In the end it cost me more in the DSR discount then it would have if I would have just sent the $10 to him, but he was a total ass and made no attempt to try and track the package down on his end so I went with principle much like you did. The neutral won't hurt as much as the negs, just make sure he can't hit you on other cards as well.

If in any email through ebay he said I will leave you a negative or neutral feedback if you don't refund me, then you should have a pretty good case with ebay, otherwise I think you will be SOL.

In the end I think its a split, you got a bit of a benefit cause you got back a graded card but the buyer lost $11 because he was a dick. Serves him right and I don't think you were in the wrong with your decision.

James G

[Buythatcard]

Just to clear things up. The card sent back was not in a slab. It came back in a soft top loader with a label stating "Evidence of Trimming"

[JamesGallo]

Originally Posted by Buythatcard

Just to clear things up. The card sent back was not in a slab. It came back in a soft top loader with a label stating "Evidence of Trimming"

Well if it is a SGC flip you should be able to get it slabbed at no charge, PSA your out of luck.

Based on this and the other information you provided I think you are in the right as long as you are accepting of the resulting feedback. You certainly shouldn't have to pay for feeback but that is how ebay has left it for sellers these days.

James G

[Dan Carson]

It was a $30 card and the guy wanted it graded!? Give me a break! People waste more money getting cards graded than there worth to them.
The only winners are the grading companies! Give the guy his money back and be done with it. One red mark won't be the end of your card dealing days. And that's that!

[Matt]

Howard - I'm not sure what card it was, but I'm pretty sure Scott Susor would be interested in buying it.

[tbob]

I have never asked or a refund for grading services nor returned a card which ended up coming back from the grader as "authentic." I had 3 very nice E94s I bought in the last year, 2 from a major auction house and one from the BST which came back from SGC as "authentic" (trimmed) and simply kept them because a) the color variations of these cards are so tough and b) they didn't appear trimmed to the naked eye.
The only sad thing was I traded away a PSA 2 E94 when I bought the EX looking one from the BST. Oh well, you live and learn.