Most appropriate way to sell unverified autographs?

[JLange]

Hypothetically speaking, let's say you pick up a lot with several baseball related items and in this lot is an autographed card that you do not wish to keep. You intend to sell this item, but you have no idea of whether the autograph is real or fake. What is the best thing to do? Sell it "as is" with a disclaimer that you have no idea if auto is real? Authenticate (if you can) and then sell with the authentication? Sell as is and offer to take return if buyer attempts authentication and is rejected? I am looking for some ideas on what others would consider fair and appropriate. I occasionally purchase lots that have these "problem" cards and don't really know what to do with them. I worry more about perpetuating another fake auto in the hobby than in losing out somehow if the auto is real.

[slidekellyslide]

There seem to be many in this forum that are qualified to give an educated opinion on autographs. I'd post it here and ask...if it's good then I'd sell it on ebay with a money back guarantee if it doesn't pass JSA or PSA. That's what I'd do, and that's what I have done in the past. If it can't pass Net54 muster it goes in the junkpile.

[travrosty]

Whatever you do, dont promise a refund base on psa's or jsa's authentication skills regarding the autograph after the sale. that's crazy.

They have knocked down good autographs and passed bad ones. Do you want to refund based on that?

If someone asks if you guarantee it to pass psa or jsa, say no, you don't recognize those services as reliable.

http://www.fighttoys.com/Jeffries-Corbett-Sharkey.htm


They call James Jeffries "James Jeffers" for crying out loud.

all the entries for sunday are in the same hand, all the entries for monday are in the same hand, but a different hand from sundays entries. then the james jeffries at the bottom is in the same hand as the sunday entries again. None of these entries are in the actual boxers hand, but both jsa and psa certed this.

Is anybody home?




Travis Roste

[GrayGhost]

Trav, that is PATHETIC that someone would pass that. Even Moorales might have got that one right.

To not open up this same can of worms, to the original poster, I think Dan's idea is the best one, and as Travis said, don't count on the Alphabet boys either.

[jbsports33]

I would do your own research first!!!


Jimmy

[drc]

I wouldn't put it up for auction if you don't have an idea if it's real-- even with disclaimer. However, when you do put it up for sale, include a big clear image so bidders can make judgments for themselves.

I agree that posting an image here and asking for opinions is a good idea.

The source of your hypothetical lot is relevant. There's a difference between the lot coming from an anonyous garage sale and an experienced/reputable dealer. Authentic autographs can come from both, but you and others will have more confidence in the opinion and reliability of said dealer.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by drc

when you do put it up for sale, include a big clear image so bidders can make judgments for themselves.

+1

Regardless of your certainty of its authenticity or who has examined it for you, the #1 most important thing is to show the signature clearly. You won't get good bids based on yours or anyone else's promises that it's good coupled with a lousy pic (and you shouldn't). Moreso, if the photo/scan is lousy, legitimate collectors who know the player's signature will shy away, and you will wind up dealing with bidders who either don't have a clue about autographs or those who don't bother to look at pics and just buy based on the title. Either way, if you're selling on eBay and the sig turns out bad, the buyer will wind up getting their money back via an ebay/paypal claim regardless of what guarantee you state.

[slidekellyslide]

The reason I give the guaranteed to pass JSA or PSA is because those are the two authentication companies that ebay allows...not that I think they're the cat's meow. I've never had an autograph returned.

[travrosty]

eventually you will get one returned, and then the guarantee to pass jsa or psa won't look as good as an option.

that boxing piece had three big time signatures on it that go for 300-500 apiece, (Sharkey, Corbett, Jeffries) making it a 1000 dollar + item if the signatures were legit. they arent, but got two certs from the two big companies anyway.

I used to guarantee to pass psa or jsa also, but then jsa knocked down an obviously good sonny liston i had that held up a 1300 dollar sale. a few weeks later jsa certed that same piece as good.

my friend sold a bob fitzsimmons signed photo that is good, and psa knocked it down and the buyer sued my friend. The buyer lost as my friend showed up in court and showed that psa opinion is just that, an opinion and in many cases they are dead wrong.

I should know about these things as not too long ago PSA asked me to be their boxing autograph consultant expert because they didn't have one and said they needed help in boxing. I didn't want to do it because of their organizational setup in how they authenticate and their unwillingness to reform their policies and procedures. That's how this "James Jeffers" nonsense like this gets passed.

They still need help and still don't have anyone who knows boxing.

The authentication route is fraught with pitfalls when they don't know what they are doing. There is no shame in putting up something "as is". People can make there own informed decision and get opinions from people they trust before they buy.

There is a dichotomy in autograph collecting right now. On one hand some people are interested in finding out if somethins is real. On the other hand some people want resale value and optimized marketability, but these two thibgs are not necessarily inclusive and the same thing, and many times are not. It's two different kinds of people collecting for two different reasons, neither reason is wrong by itself but the trick is to get resale value AS WELL as a great opinion on to the authenticity of the piece and psa and jsa only have one of these bases covered unfortunately.

Travis Roste


I agree that the Psa-Jsa boxing piece I showed is totally pathetic and it is as bad as other Forensics opinions, but the people who bash the Forensics opinion never have anything to say about Psa or Jsa when they do similar things.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by travrosty

my friend sold a bob fitzsimmons signed photo that is good, and psa knocked it down and the buyer sued my friend. The buyer lost as my friend showed up in court and showed that psa opinion is just that, an opinion and in many cases they are dead wrong.

I should know about these things as not too long ago PSA asked me to be their boxing autograph consultant expert because they didn't have one and said they needed help in boxing. I didn't want to do it because of their organizational setup in how they authenticate and their unwillingness to reform their policies and procedures. That's how this "James Jeffers" nonsense like this gets passed.

They still need help and still don't have anyone who knows boxing.

I have no idea whether it was good or not, but that Fitzsimmons piece you mentioned caused a lot friction in the hobby between a lot of good people who were just trying to do the right thing on both sides.

It's a tight knit community and it's amazing the ripples that one piece caused.

[travrosty]

It was the final straw as far as psa is concerned to me. the problem i had with their opinion is that they didnt say why they didnt like it. They didnt say if they thought it was a forgery, or a stamp, or what? Thats the part i didn't get.

If someone is going to sue based on psa's opinion, then the lawsuits would never stop.

Lesson to be learned is to get many opinions before you buy, if you wait until after it is too late.

I know the people on both sides of that piece too. And if it was judged to be good, no one would have been upset at anyone else. The buyer was confident in the piece when he bought it, but when it was judged to be no good, then he couldn't get the paper to resell, so now he didnt want it anymore. It's still a good piece in my opinion, as I have never seen any evidence to suggest otherwise, an opinion from psa doesnt make a bad piece good, nor a good one bad.

What that piece and lawsuit did was tighten up dealers and collector return policies, (they had to spell it out completely so nothing like this can happen again).

So something good did come about from it. If I sell something I don't allow returns based on psa or jsa opinion. (no evidence provided). I return based on evidence no matter where that information comes from. And other dealers, collectors took the same warning and spelled it out on their websites. I don't blame them.

I can't have psa and jsa hanging over my heads all day because they don't like a Firpo I have, but they like a firpo and issue a cert that is totally bogus? Why are they so good again? I don't know. I have personally found their ability to be severely lacking.

People need to get opinions before they buy, from whoever they like and feel confident with. If that is PSA or JSA, fine. If it is me, fine, if it is you, fine, if it is others, fine.

If someone says they don't want to buy from me because PSA didn't like an autograph I had for sale. That's fine, because it is before they buy. But if someone says psa didnt like my autograph after they bought it, so now they want a refund, I would tell them no dice. psa wanted me to join their team as the boxing guy, so why would my opinion not be good to them now and PSA's non boxing experts trump mine? Just because they are PSA and I am not?

http://www.fighttoys.com/Firpononauthentic.htm

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by travrosty

eventually you will get one returned, and then the guarantee to pass jsa or psa won't look as good as an option.

If it happens, it happens...I'll still guarantee anything I sell. I'm not in the business of selling Mickey Mantle, Babe Ruth or any other highly forged autograph...I usually have a pretty good idea if something is real or not before I sell it.

[JLange]

Thanks for the help! I agree this forum does have the right SMEs - subject matter experts - to help vette autos, and I will surely look for opinions here if I go to sell such items.

[travrosty]

I guarantee everything I sell too. I just don't guarantee it to pass psa or jsa, why take a step down, when it is has already passed TRA. I had the 'whatever will be, will be" mindset too, until jsa held up a 1300 dollar sale on a dead on, no brainer Sonny Liston autograph, that my little nephew could have certed. They snatched 1300 dollars from my hands, when they ultimately passed the darn thing several weeks later anyway. You are giving all the power to sell YOUR autographs to psa and jsa. Getting their opinion is one thing, and people can take their opinion for what its worth, but to dictate a sellers policy based on their "whichever way the wind blows" authentication process is crazy to me anyway and counterproductive.

If I am the only one that feels this way, then thats okay too. But I will never allow psa or jsa to stand in between me, my autograph and a buyer. Credo to follow is: -- Get opinions before you buy, not after.

Travis Roste

[RichardSimon]

There are many people in the hobby who are knowledgable about what they are selling.
If collectors would stick with sellers who know what they are doing, and stop placing authenticators on a pedastal, many of these problems would be solved.
The proliferation of scummy sellers on ebay of course does not help the hobby and has helped the TPA business.
But in the "old days" before TPA a collector could ask a knowledgable dealer, that he did business with, for his opinion on a particular item and the dealer would gladly try to help out that collector. I would do that all the time.
I kinda long for those days now.
Travis you are so right about this - "Credo to follow is: -- Get opinions before you buy, not after."

[RichardSimon]

One telling incident for me involves a former neighbor of mine who became a close personal friend.
To make a long story short, he was a turnstile boy at Ebbets Field and a gofer on the Babe Ruth radio show. He hung around at the Ansonia Hotel (where Ruth had a room for extra curricular actiivty) and would get in person autographs from the Babe. He also got TTM autographs from a number of other HOFers.
He eventually sold me a part of his collection including over a dozen Ruth autographs on various mediums and a number of other HOFers. It was my greatest find.
I sold them to a number of people. Two of these Ruth items, which were absolutely gotten in person, were knocked down by PSA. One of the items was then, at my suggestion, submitted to an auction house which has its own in house experts, and they took it in immediately, authenticated it and did sell it.
The other item was held onto and eventually sold by the person I sold it to, he did not want a refund because he knew the story behind the piece and trusted my opinion and my story of how I acquired the item instead of PSA's rejection.

[GrayGhost]

Trust in the hobby? you feeling ok Richard?

Seriously, through all these threads I have read, I have realized the only thing that is important to me is gaining an education, and th en buying from someone reputable. It seems too many mistakes are made by the TPA's. Plus, as several have said, you are paying for the Cert, NOT the signature, especially when you use the Alphabits guys.

Hey, they probably do get most right, but to pay a massive premium, when they make plenty of errors, and self education could be done, seems like a foolhardy move.

Education and study..could be used w many other hobby collectibles too, not just autographs.

[slidekellyslide]

We may not like it at all, but the fact is that JSA and PSA are looked upon as the gold standard. That is the perception...perception may not be reality, but I'll always go with the gold standard when trying to sell something...even if it is only perception.

With that said...if I were ever in the market for a Babe Ruth autograph I'd value Richard Simon's opinion over the perceived gold standard of JSA/PSA.

[RichardSimon]

Thank you Dan, the check is on its way.