Bloomer girls and Smokey Joe Wood postcard

[Leon]

Hey guys (and girls),
I have a postcard I need some help with. I believe this is Smokey Joe on the far right, sitting. The back has a postmark of 1911 but I think the photo could be from a few years earlier. I know it probably isn't, but that guy sitting on the far left almost looks like Addie Joss? Thoughts.....? I can probably get a bigger scan if it's needed...

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by Leon

Hey guys (and girls),
I have a postcard I need some help with. I believe this is Smokey Joe on the far right, sitting. The back has a postmark of 1911 but I think the photo could be from a few years earlier. I know it probably isn't, but that guy sitting on the far left almost looks like Addie Joss? Thoughts.....? I can probably get a bigger scan if it's needed...

I just read a Goodwin lot detail from 2010 that claims that Wood only played one month for the Western Bloomer Girls of St Augustine FL, in 1906. I do not know that is or isn't Joe in this picture, just saying....

[Leon]

larger scan....

[Runscott]

Wood said that he played for Galbreath's Bloomer team, so that, along with the fact that it looks like him in this card, is pretty compelling.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Wood said that he played for Galbreath's Bloomer team, so that, along with the fact that it looks like him in this card, is pretty compelling.

Again, I know it's probably not him but doesn't that guy on the left resemble Addie Joss? Maybe it's just me, I am not that great on photo ID....

[Runscott]

He does have the same look (or lack thereof) in his eyes.

[Hankphenom]

Not him. On the Glory Of Their Times audio, Wood says of the team he signed with, "This was not the Boston Bloomer Girls, but the Western Bloomer Girls out of Kansas City." Both teams were owned by Logan Galbreath. It also doesn't really look all that much like Joe Wood, either, IMO. But that other guy sure is a dead ringer for Addie Joss.

[Bicem]

Agreed with Hank on Wood.

I've always thought he looked like Joss too on that pc, but could find absolutely nothing on Joss' affiliation with any Bloomer teams.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Not him. On the Glory Of Their Times audio, Wood says of the team he signed with, "This was not the Boston Bloomer Girls, but the Western Bloomer Girls out of Kansas City." Both teams were owned by Logan Galbreath. It also doesn't really look all that much like Joe Wood, either, IMO. But that other guy sure is a dead ringer for Addie Joss.

I would agree - on the enlargement, neither of the guys on the front row look too much like Wood.

I didn't realize that Galbreath owned both teams.

[bmarlowe1]

The quality is not great - but seems just good enough to see that the ear is not right. That combined with no known connection to the team says that it isn't Joss.

[Leon]

I only have a little vested interest, as the card will be in our next auction, and have to just disagree with ya'll. To me, they both look like Wood and Joss. We certainly don't want to sell anything that is not what it is purported to be so will make sure the description isn't definitive, unless someone comes up with some definitive proof. Given that Wood did play for the Bloomers I think there is a good chance it is him. I also think it looks like Joss too. Would love to get more opinions and am appreciative and respectful of those given so far.

[packs]

Wood played for the Kansas City team. This is a photo of the Boston team. He would not have been in a Boston photo.

Here is a link to Goodwin's postcard that they auctioned featuring Wood. He is said to be 5th from the left. I don't think he resembles the guy in your postcard. This postcard also features an undivided back. Postcards had undivided backs until 1907. Wood played for the team in 1906. Your postcard has to be from 1907 or later since it is divided. I could be wrong though.

http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=18811

[Leon]

another tidbit of research. I think there is a chance this is an earlier photo of him on a 5 yrs later card......

In 1905 John Wood took his family back to his wife's hometown of Ness City, Kansas, where he practiced law. By the following summer, Joe Wood, 16 years old and the youngest player to suit up, was pitching and playing infield for the Ness City town team against teams from Ellis, Ransom, Wakeeney, and Scott City. These games were big events, often associated with weekend festivals and parades. In Ness City no game was more eagerly anticipated than a game advertised in the Ness County News to be played August 27, 1906, at 3:00 p.m. sharp between the Ness City nine and the barnstorming Kansas City Bloomer Girls. Owned and managed by Logan Galbreath, the Bloomer Girls team would travel from town to town playing men's teams while unbeknownst to most, the Bloomer Girls would have three or four young men dressed in wigs playing on their side. With Joe pitching, the Ness City team won 23-3 before the largest crowd anyone could remember. After the game Galbreath approached Joe and his father and asked if he would like to join the team for the last three weeks of the season for $20.00. So began the professional career of Joe Wood, playing with the likes of Lady Waddell and Dolly Madison, two of the “dressed up” girls and four or five actual girls in places like Ellinwood and Haven. In later years, Joe would somewhat sheepishly admit that he discovered while playing for the Bloomer Girls, but would point out that the great Carl Hubbell was discouraged some years later from playing for a similar type traveling team.

[packs]

It has a divided back though. That would make it from 1907 or later. Wood played for the team in 1906. Also your postcard is of the Boston team. Wood played for the Western team.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by Leon

I only have a little vested interest, as the card will be in our next auction, and have to just disagree with ya'll. To me, they both look like Wood and Joss.

Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I can only say that the main massage I have tried to convey over several years of posts here is that what you have said above (he subjectively looks like a famous guy to me) has very little probative value (not just for you, Leon, I mean in general). It has near zero probative value when the person wasn't on that team and zero probative value when the ear doesn't match.

Having written about this subject, here's an excerpt, FWIW:
Unless the subject is a person we know quite well, either personally or via a vast number of images (like Bill Clinton or Babe Ruth), the sense of subjective facial recognition can be fooled by even slight facial similarity. This effect varies greatly with the beholder, hence heated disagreements do arise as to who is depicted in an old photo. Some of those who are frequently confused are unaware of this problem. An opinion that two photos depict the same person can be very strongly and sincerely felt, yet still be wrong.

[Jaybird]

Agree with others. Doesn't look like a match to me on either guy.

This might be the same guy bottom row far right...

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I can only say that the main massage I have tried to convey over several years of posts here is that what you have said above (he subjectively looks like a famous guy to me) has very little probative value (not just for you, Leon, I mean in general). It has near zero probative value when the person wasn't on that team and zero probative value when the ear doesn't match.

I respectfully disagree. I guess folks don't think this is him in this very similar postcard either? Looks like the same guy to me but ..... same hat slant, same facial features...all more probative than not, to me

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by Leon

I respectfully disagree. I guess folks don't think this is him in this very similar postcard either? Looks like the same guy to me but ..... same hat slant, same facial features...all more probative than not, to me

I am sure that for you (and probably others) he does look like the same guy - I don't doubt it. Potential bidders need of be aware that it doesn't mean much. This is an excellent example of confirmation bias.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

I am sure that for you (and probably others) he does look like the same guy - I don't doubt it. Potential bidders need of be aware that it doesn't mean much. This is an excellent example of confirmation bias.

Hi Mark
I think there is room for debate on this. Just curious, do you think that is him in the other postcard I just posted?

[Jaybird]

Everything I've ever heard is him playing for BLoomer Girls in Kansas. I think the two cards have the same guy but I wouldn't make the leap that it is also Joe Wood. Especially since he isn't known to have played on the Boston Bloomers. I actually don't even think they look all that much like Wood.

That being said, I've seen cards at other auction houses and on ebay where the claim of the person being on the card is not the case. Take this for example...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1907-Carlisl...00875663359%26

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Jaybird

Everything I've ever heard is him playing for BLoomer Girls in Kansas. I think the two cards have the same guy but I wouldn't make the leap that it is also Joe Wood. Especially since he isn't known to have played on the Boston Bloomers. I actually don't even think they look all that much like Wood.

That being said, I've seen cards at other auction houses and on ebay where the claim of the person being on the card is not the case. Take this for example...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1907-Carlisl...00875663359%26

Sure thing. I took that other postcard from a positively id'd site. Nice....

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Leon

Sure thing. I took that other postcard from a positively id'd site. Nice....

still researching

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by Leon

Hi Mark
I think there is room for debate on this. Just curious, do you think that is him in the other postcard I just posted?

Leon - I don't have all my materials at hand right now. A couple of years ago I took a look at the 2nd PC (dark uniforms) for a collector. As I recall Wood (but not Joss as far as I know) did play for that team. I believe my conclusion was that the guy front row right was unlikely to be Wood due to some facial feature mismatch - probably something visible related to chin structure.

Is he the same guy as the one in the same location in your auction PC - I don't know - the quality of your PC for that face is pretty bad, but I think he has the same chin problem vis-a-vis Wood. I can try to post some graphics later.

[Hankphenom]

Let it go, Leon. How much more do you need than to hear Joe Wood saying "This was NOT the Boston Bloomer girls...?" Of course, it could have been somebody else saying that.

[bmarlowe1]

Go here and see my post #31:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=122405&page=2

QED

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

Go here and see my post #31:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=122405&page=2

QED

That's fairly cut and dry. The guy on the right is not Joe Wood to my eye.. It's actually and easy call using that array.

[bmarlowe1]

Also, I don't see how one can assert with any degree of certainty that these two images depict the same person.

[ksfarmboy]

I've got the 1906 Ness City photo and a 1907 Hutch postcard of Joe Wood and neither look like the guy that Leon posted. He's in the lower right in the Ness City photo. It's not him.

[slidekellyslide]

Deja vu! This subject comes up every two years like clockwork.

[packs]

Leon can you respond to the posts that have pointed out that Joe Wood played for the Western Bloomer team and not the Boston Bloomer team and the fact that your postcard is of the Boston Bloomer team? How do you explain the discrepency if you are saying that is Joe Wood on the Boston team?

Also, as I pointed out your postcard was produced after March of 1907 and not before. Joe Wood played for the Western Bloomer team in 1906. It could not possibly be him.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by packs

Leon can you respond to the posts that have pointed out that Joe Wood played for the Western Bloomer team and not the Boston Bloomer team and the fact that your postcard is of the Boston Bloomer team? How do you explain the discrepency if you are saying that is Joe Wood on the Boston team?

Also, as I pointed out your postcard was produced after March of 1907 and not before. Joe Wood played for the Western Bloomer team in 1906. It could not possibly be him.

ok, thanks guys. I have read enough that I don't think it's him now. It still looks like him to me but like I always say, if everyone else is wrong, you (which is me this time) need to look in the mirror. Much appreciated. Maybe in 2 more years the subject will come up again!!

[Runscott]

I'm sure someone's posted this before, but here's something I just stumbled across - not odd to hear an auction house make wishful claims, but according to them, a descendant of Wood's even claims that Joe Wood is in this photo, even though it's the wrong team altogether:

Western Bloomers - Joe Wood

[ksfarmboy]

Scott, the one I thought they said was Wood was the guy on the far right. That postcard was in another memorabilia book where that claim was made.

[Bridwell]

I have the Addie Joss biography by Longert. Its pretty thorough and doesn't have any mention of the Bloomer Girls in it. It seems unlikely he would be in the photo after becoming a major leaguer in 1902.

Congrats on the homer, though!

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by ksfarmboy

Scott, the one I thought they said was Wood was the guy on the far right. That postcard was in another memorabilia book where that claim was made.

Yes...I think it's in Stephen Wong's book "Smithsonian Baseball". My copy is packed away somewhere and I'm not ambitious enough to dig.

[deadballfreaK]

Originally Posted by Runscott

He does have the same look (or lack thereof) in his eyes.

Wow. Addie Joss died 2 days after his 31st birthday. Man does he look rough. I never heard anything about him being a drinker, but he looks like Pete Alexander or a cowboy at age 50.

[slidekellyslide]

Ballplayers played every game under the sun back then which is why I think they look so dang old back then...nowadays 75% of the games are night games. With that said Addie Joss looked more beaten down than the average prewar ballplayer in the last few years of his life.