OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers

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Posted By: PC

Greatest team ever? At the moment, on paper, they're only the best team in the A.L. Central in 2008.

Last time I checked, this is the team that collapsed completely down the stretch in 2007, finishing 8 games behind the Indians and 6 behind the Yanks in the wildcard.

A great trade, but you're asking a lot of two players, one of whom could easily be a .500 pitcher.

But swing away Los Tigres -- I'm rooting for anyone who can beat the Sox in 2008.

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Posted By: Ed Ivey

I wonder how Cobb would fit into the lineup.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

go back to your wine. ANd say hello to Ernest and Julio !

edited cause I wasnt done with the wino. ALso , you say that each player down the line wont repeat themselves , when in fact they did just have great season. You must live a negative lifestyle along with being dismissed in your second year of T-Ball.

you must live in a town with no baseball, cause ya surely dont know it !

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

please forgive me if I ask that they be required to play the games. See, the offense that Cabrera brings is great news for Tigers' fans, no doubt, but they finished with the 3rd most runs and 2nd best batting avg. last year without him, and still lacked the pitching (mostly bullpen) to win 90 games, much less a playoff spot. So if Zamaya doesn't return to form, then you Detoit fans better still remain a bit humble for awhile. Having endured Willis on my roto team last year--he of the 5.17 ERA in a weak-hitting NL, I consider him a #3 at best, that is to say he's no savior. 5.17!!! That's nearly a half-run higher than flippin Nate Robertson, Tigers fans. So enjoy the Kool Aid while you can, and let's see how the September standings look.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

for whatever reason...Leyland brought up several youngsters and sat veterans in the midst of a playoff chance.Rogers ,Verlander and Zumaya were all out. So the wins have nothing to do with the way they dealt there own fate. i as a bystander could not believe what they were doing that whole entire time. Thew weirdest thing I ever saw. There is no team is history that has put a lineup together such as this.Sheffield was hurt and played still...which hurt the team.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

The Tigers were 15-11 in September. Verlander had 6 starts and Rogers 5, and Zamaya piched 10 times that month. They didn't have the pitching all year. Bonderman was awful the second half. Rogers is now what age 75? Todd Jones is not exactly Mr. Automatic. Zamaya's ERA went from under 2 in 2006 to over 4.25, and he was hurt. Willis sucks. If they get their pitching together, they'll win, if not, the Tribe repeats, IMHO. But hey, enjoy the moment. I'm a Twins fan--we're just happy when we keep our guys, and don't allow ourselves to think about acquiring someone else's talent. Still, don't look over your shoulder..............

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Whoops--lets hold the greatest team threads--story out this morning that Tigers may flip Willis due to payroll limitations.

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Posted By: J Levine

"no team has ever put together a lineup like this"???

Dan, really?

That early '30s Yankee lineup really sucked...Dickey, Combs, Ruth, Gehrig, Lazzeri?

Or the late '20s A's with Simmons, Cochrane, Cobb, Wheat, Collins, and Foxx.

Again...hitting does not win games...great pitching beats great hitting everytime.

Joshua

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Posted By: Jim VB

Dan,

Breaking news!!! The rest of the American League has voted to PLAY OUT THE 2008 SEASON!! This despite the obvious dominance of the Tigers. Can you believe it?


Peter,

Changing leagues will help Willis? Rarely does someone get better when they move from the JV to the Varsity.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

trashing is my field...........c'mon down............NEXT !!!!

soon you's will see that...........you big dummies.

Iam taking Peter's bet and others of THE GREATEST HITTing team on earth.............next !!!!!

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Posted By: howard

Jim...Peter may be on to something. In fifteen career inter-league starts (including games vs. the Yanks & Bosox) Willis' ERA is more than a run below his National League ERA.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

my post is not based on Willis. Evelyn Woodhead does have reading courses.

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Posted By: Brian

<<3B Rose over Cabrera>>

The 1968 and 1969 Rose years are the only ones remotely close to Cabrera's. Rose's best year in total bases was 1969 with 321. Cabrera is better than that the last three years.

I take Cabrera over Rose in a heart beat.

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Posted By: DMcD

Joshua: And vice versa.

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Posted By: Larry

27 Yankees and 76 Reds would pull a 4 game sweep on this Tigers team.

27 Yankees vs. 76 Reds? Yankees 4 games to 3

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Posted By: paulstratton

You're probably going to have to beat Beckett at least once, if not twice, to win a series against the Sox. There weren't any pitchers available, except Santana and they weren't going to trade him inside their division to the Tigers, so you have to try to make Beckett go through a monster lineup twice.

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Posted By: DAn Koteles

see what Detroit did to him last year.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Dan, I agree that Detroit has a wonderfully balanced lineup -- and potent to the nth degree. However, in a 7 game series, which team is beating this starting four: Beckett (2 games), Santana (2 games), Dice K, Schilling? Answer: no team because great pitching beats great hitting every time.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

noone will outhit the Tigers .EVeryone wants to pick on Rogers, remember 3 straight shutouts in the playoffs the year before.His imjury again was a blood clot, not a rotator. Forget he is 43...he is a master locator like John Tudor and is more enduring. Verlander can match any of those guys.....Bonderman will come back, the guy has some sick pitches, then Willis?....I think all are wrong about him.HE will give you 200 + innings AND has finally getting run support .When you go to the park knowing you are going to win, it falls into place. YOu automatically play better with better people.

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Posted By: Chris Counts

Ultimately, it's pitching that wins championships, and I'm not convinced Willis will make a difference. He kind of reminds me of Barry Zito in that he walks a lot of batters and his strikeouts are going down each year. I believe that's because Willis, like Zito, has deceptive stuff, but hitters are learning to lay off his pitches since he throws a lot of pitches out of the strike zone.

As for Cabrera, he's obviously a great young hitter, but baseball history is filled with great hitting teams that came up short ... there's a really good reason teams are willing to trade excellent everyday players like Orlando Cabrera for average but durable pitchers like Jon Garland.

Personally, I like the Tigers. I was born in Flint, Michigan, which defintely qualifies as Tiger country. But I'm afraid their pitching is too dependant on fading guys like Kenny Rogers and Todd Jones. Plus, it looks like Joel Zumaya, who has the best stuff in their bullpen, could be out all season ...

I'm looking forward to watching their lineup, but I believe they'd have a better team with Dan Haren or Erik Bedard, two guys that could have been had for some combination of the prospects that went to Florida. Imagine last year's Tiger lineup and a rotation of Haren, Verlander and Bonderman ...

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Posted By: James Gallo

Howard---Exactly what did I overstate? All my Phillies numbers were pulled from the last few years of experience. I looks at the numbers and that is what I posted. I don't think I over stated things at all. Did you look over the numbers?

Ben--- Yes I aware the Phillies need some help in the pitching department and I never said the pitching was that strong. Myers is back as a starter and Lidge will have Gordon as a back up closer.

Dan fist off you need to CHILL OUT!!!!

Real original Wine comments jeee like I haven't heard that before.


Have you looked at your own damn team numbers?

Last years BA from the Tigers OWN WEB SITE

Rodriguez .281
Sheffield .265 Hasn't hit .300 since 2002
Guillen .296
Jones .285 and that was the closest he has been to .300 for 4 years.
Granderson his last 4 years were .240, .272, .260 and .302 so all of a sudden he is a .300 hitter give me a break.


I don't see more then 4 maybe 5 tops guys who are going to bat over .300 next year. I do see 2 guys over the hill and 2 guys that haven't proven anything in Jones and Granderson.


Oh and Dan Why not read over your owns posts, here is one for you
"noone will outhit the Tigers .EVeryone wants to pick on Rogers, remember 3 straight shutouts in the playoffs the year before.His imjury again was a blood clot, not a rotator. Forget he is 43...he is a master locator like John Tudor and is more enduring. Verlander can match any of those guys.....Bonderman will come back, the guy has some sick pitches, then Willis?....I think all are wrong about him.HE will give you 200 + innings AND has finally getting run support .When you go to the park knowing you are going to win, it falls into place. YOu automatically play better with better people."

The following words are in my dictionary
noone
imjury

You might try a grammer check too and ease up on those CAPS TOO!!

Once again as I said lets see them play some games and you need to chill out. I hit you with facts and you come with wine comments are you 6 because that is sure they way your acting.....


James G

Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

"Verlander can match any of those guys" Ahh, Dan, hope springs eternal. I think the Tigers' pitchers have potential but as of today no way can they match Beckett in the playoffs. And Santana is just more experienced... I only hope that the Sox and the Tigers get to the Championship Series because it will be one of the most anticipated series in a long while.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

Iam acting like Iam 8, not 6. You correct my accidental spelling and didnt even spell grammar right. You put "er", er meaning stands for your baseball thoery,eeeeeeRRRRrReeeeeRRRRRRRR

I love the way you respond to me ,it is like a 10 yr old picking on a 8 year old , you bully you ! whhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

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Posted By: Mark Steinberg

Brian:
I was wondering how long it would take to get a disagreement on the "Rose over Cabrera" comparison... I thought I'd get hammered more on that one, as this was the one I labored with the most.

You are probably right about Cabrera "on paper", but having lived and breathed it back in the day, I can tell you that Rose was so tough under pressure and in games that mattered. He really brought with him an infectious "never say die" attitude. This was well before all of the gambling nonsense and other poor decisions he made. Unfortunately (and perhaps deservedly so) he will be remembered more for the corruption. But the man did amass more hits than Cobb, for Pete's sake. (horrible unintended pun.... sorry!)

Larry:
I agree with you about the '27 Yanks vs. the '76 Reds... probably Yankees in seven. But wouldn't that be an amazing World Series to watch? Perhaps not the greatest pitching, but what a potential slugfest... a meeting of the Gods!

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Posted By: James Gallo

Man I provide all the facts and all you manage to do is pick out one misspelling. I must have really hit the nail on the head cause you got nothing to say about ANY of the FACTS I put out.

Good luck to the Tigers I will be happy to see them fall on their faces.

James G

Now back to cards please.

Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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Posted By: Howard

James, it looks to me like you analyzed the Tigers and Phillies lineups in different ways. You looked for the possible negatives for the Detroit while you did the opposite for Philly. For example, you project Rollins as a .300 hitter when, in fact, he never hit .300 in a season. Not even last year when he won the MVP. However, you also describe Polanco as "around a .300 hitter at best". So to you the guy who has a lifetime .305 BA and batted .340 last year and the guy who never once hit .300 are apparently both basically .300 hitters. Can you honestly say you would have put the same spin on them if Rollins was on the Tigers and Polanco was still on the Phillies?

Also, this line: "Ruiz young guy who is just going to get better". Really? Why? He's not really young (28 when next season starts) and it seems just as likely to me that he'll decline next year.

You think Iguchi will hit a solid .280 plus next year and he has lots of potential. Maybe. But I see a 33 year old w/a lifetime BA lower than .280 coming off his worst year. What would your description of him been if he was on the Tigers?

Rowand will hit 25-30 HRs. Again..maybe. But you base this on his career year last season and discount the previous two seasons when he totaled about 25 HRs in about 1,000 ABs.

Maybe your right and everything will fall into place but I will bet you that the Tigers score more runs than the Phillies next season. And Dan, I'll bet you that the Yankees score more runs than the Tigers next year.

Now keep debating, guys. It's entertaining.

Howard

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

you trashed my spelling while you misspelled first as fist and trash me while you couldnt even spell grammar.Now you come along and act as if you can tell me to hush while you get your last word in like some dictator.Iam the "dic" here and you are the "tator". you will dig a deeper hole as we merily go along.

Talking with you is the same as chasing a dead snake. Put your money up son.....that is all the talking you need to do.

BAck to cards JAmes, do you have anything to mention ?

you have a deal Howard....thank you for the friendly bet. James can you do that for your Fightin'Phillies? Thanks also Howard for mentioning his Philly comparisons....the silly Phillian. GET OFF THE "BOONSEFARM" !

editing was for Howard's bet and I had to correct some bunching.James , I bet you do not know the meaning of bunching?

A)togetherness
B)a build up in a Gallo head
C)a partridge in a pear tree

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

I don't know why I post in this thread, as I don't have real strong feelings on the subject, but Dan, I don't think the '08 Tigers are even the best baseball team from Detroit in the past quarter century. I believe the '84 team would take them out in a seven game series nearly every time. Give me Lance Parrish, Trammell, Whitaker, HoJo, Darrell Evans, Kirk Gibson and Chet Lemon over today's group, and give me the '84 pitching staff, which had a better rotation--headed by Jack Morris--and a studly bullpen led by MVP Willie Hernandez. The more I think of it, the more I have trouble believing the '08 Tigers could even stretch that series to 7 games.

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Posted By: J Levine

Years ago I had a program that I could plug teams into using the year's stats including both pitching and batting and match them up and have them play a 7 game series to see who the better team. I used to love to plug my Phillies in and play them against the '27 Yanks, or the '69 Mets, or the upcoming years lineups. I would love to use this on the Tigers against some teams and see what happens...anybody remember this?

Joshua

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Posted By: shane leonard

Jim,
I agree that Polanco is a great opposite field hitter. Over the past three seasons Polanco has improved in every offensive catagory, perhaps getting more AB's has allowed him to become more consistant at the plate. I believe he only hit 8 homers last year in that lineup, but had an incredible BA and OBA. I would personally hit him after Pudge to not only clean up the guys on base, but be an on base threat for the top of the order.
Maybin and Miller are in the top 5 prospects in the MLB. Both are studs at their positions, and both will be future stars in the league. The NL has always played and succeeded in the small ball arena. Maybin has all the tools to play this game and will be a Jose Reyes type player. Once Miller gets more comfortable pitching in the big leagues, his control will improve. His height and velocity reminds scouts very much like a Randy Johnson.

Shane

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Posted By: James Gallo

Howard--

Rollins last 4 years BA are .289, .290. .277 and last year .296.

Polanco .338, .316, .295, .341. However he had a lot of sub .300 years and his average has a swing of 20-30 points from year to year.

Rollins may not have hit that 300 mark but he has been much more consistent with only a 5-10 point swing. He also has a team to hit around as opposed to previous years where he had no one.

Did I under estimate Polanco some, perhaps but I still wouldn't expect him to hit .340 consistently for the rest of his career.

Ruiz is a "rookie" and last year was his first full year. I am not sure why you would see a decline. He is the #1 starting catcher and he has a killer line up to play in. That means he will get more pitches to hit. I saw his defense and offense get better as the season went on.

How the hell is Iguchi at a .280 BA a stretch he is a life time .276 hitter and he was on only ok Sox teams in a the Phillies line-up he would hit his .280 or better. The White Sox were horrible last year and he hit .304 with the Phillies.

Again with Rowand he is on a line-up where he is going to see more killer pitchers especially batting behind Howard. The 05 and 06 White Sox were not the greatest teams, and he did hit 24 HR in 04.


I think your cutting some hairs here.


Dan what do you want to bet I am up for it. Total runs, best finish, wins........ You pick the terms and get back to me.


Oh and I don't need to get the last word, I had other posters I wante to respond to.

Now I will wait for you to set your terms and we can move on.

Still nothing to say about the stats though hu?

James G

Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

how about 250.00 on each of the three you mentioned. tHen each player 1-8 100.00. When we are done , i will visit you at the mission and make sure you get a fresh donut.....with creme !

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

you need to quit being a stat guy, other then 3 guys the Phillies suck. You guys play a very week division or simply most of the NL is weak.

Granderson
Polonco
Cabrera
Ordonez
Sheffield
GUillen
Renteria
Rodriguez
Jones............................wowfrickinwee

Todd, what is your bet?...the 84 Tigers would not do well against this bunch.

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Posted By: Joe G.

I’m not going to get into argument here, just show my support for the recent trades. I, like Dan, am excited for this upcoming season; I too renewed my seats. The Tiger’s offense is going to be something to see. Most everyone is focusing on just Cabrera, forgetting about our other two substantial pick-ups, Renteria & Jones (Jacque Jones). They allow the Tigers to redistribute their talent such that our DH may become the “weakest” bat although I really think Shef will rebound with a healthy shoulder. He spent half of last season with a slow swing due to his injury, committing to pitches he would normally lay off.

Consider the following Starting line-up with last years Batting Averages (all of which could repeat or even improve with the better talent top to bottom). Listed from highest batting average to lowest (MLB rank):

Magglio Ordonez (RF): .363 (1st)
Placido Polanco (2B): .341 (3rd)
Edgar Renteria (SS): .332 (8th) - w Braves last year
Miguel Cabrera (3B): .320 (17th) - w Marlins last year
Curtis Granderson (CF): .302 (32nd)
Carlos Guillen (1B): .296 (43rd)
Jacque Jones (LF): .285 (80th) - w Cubs last year
Ivan Rodriguez (C): .281 (85th)
Gary Sheffield (DH): .265 (125th) - however, led team in walks (.378 OBP)

Keep in mind there are 30 MLB teams, so on average, the best player on any given team should place in the top 30, the 2nd in the top 60, the 3rd in the top 90 etc. The Tigers are loaded, there will be some very high scoring games. I suspect I’ll be getting a lot of free haircuts from Lady Janes (free haircuts the day after a 10 run game the Tigers win if you can produce a game ticket).

The pitching is the big question with plenty of outside factors, most notably injury (so no projections from me). Time will tell, but with better than an average BA of .310 from your starting 9, I like our chances.

Best Regards,
Joe Gonsowski

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

and I already said I don't care all that much. Still,you'd face Morris in a three game series--I doubt you'd win once, and I'd bet HUGE you wouldn't win a game seven. Pitching beats hitting pretty much every time. The '08 Tigers wouldn't get a sniff after the 6th inning against that '84 bullpen--I don't care what stats you're rolling out. Get some pitching and then start crowing. Todd Jones is a journeyman closer who turns 40 opening month and who has pitched for eight teams in the last 7 years. Does that sound like a guy the league fears? If Zumaya doesn't come back to '06 form and your starters improve, you're looking at winning your games 10-7, and while the Yankees have tried that formula the last several years, it really hasn't worked very well for them come post-season, has it?

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

he needs to be traded to Gallos Phillies .Todd, Verlander will be better then Morris. Verlander will now get his chance.

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Posted By: dennis

please post this thread when the great tiger team wins a world series. or gets into the post season

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

please go lay down and go to bed and quit hijacking a thread that doesnt interest you.

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Posted By: paulstratton

Every time Jones comes into a game I have to turn off the TV. I really thought Zumaya would be closing by now, except got hurt playing too much Guitar Hero and now he injures himself moving boxes at his house. This is a worrisome trend to say the least. I think Verlander has a chance to win 25 games if their lineup stays healthy all year and if he can dominate in the postseason ala Beckett(big if), "we" have a good chance of beating the Sox.

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Posted By: joe

Dan K., keep up the barrage, you are doing a GREAT job?

Go Tigers, Red Wings, Pistons, sorry Lions.

Joe

Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: Jason

HEY my buddy Dan-


I will give you 10-1 odds that the Tigers will not win the WS next year. Kenny Rogers cannot hold Tudors jock......besides, he will get hurt. Zumbabway or whatever his name is will come back only to get hurt playing Halo 3, Verlander and Willis will be good but Verlander lacks experience. They are probably the best talented team in the league overall, but they just dont have what it takes to win it all. Sorry to burst your bubble, cause I really really like you. Rodney needs to learn to handle some situations better, and middle relief needs to pull through......Otherwise I cannot see them keeping up with likes of Red Sox. Let me know how much you want in for.


Jason

P.S. added.....just to let you know, I would actually like to see them win it all. I just do not think they will do it. Takes more than all the talent to win a championship. Maybe in 3-4 more years. They do need to keep the video games away from Zamboogla. Maybe fine him $100K everytime he is caught with a PS3 or X box in his hotel room.

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Posted By: jeffdrum

The great thing about the "hot stove" season is that hope springs eternal. I wonder if any teams other than the Tigers and Phillies will even bother showing up for spring training next year?

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

my ole buddy....you have some good humor there , but....as far as it goes.Tudor pitched how long?....til he was how old? Great command pitchers THAT KNOW HOW TO PITCH, can go long time. Satchel Paige went for how long? Arent you closer to KC then STl ?...is that when PAtek was your hero? Kc got there big gun this year, uh who was it.....uh the big whopper bopper ,uh Jose Guillen on roids?

Suspended first 15 or 25, ah he will still lead your favorites in HR's with what 18?....oh boy , yuns in fer a long season.

xoxoJAson
from Dan

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Posted By: Noel

Swept at home by the vaunted Royals...may want to hold off on the proclamation until they win a game.

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Posted By: barrysloate

No team has ever started 0-4 and won the World Series. Tigers right now are 0-5.

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Posted By: Joann

But there is a truism about the Tigers that many locals know. Never count them out before the kids get out of school for the year.

Yeah it's kind of an old wives' tale, but it does often seem that they pick up after school lets out for the year (and, of course, it is getting warmer). Long tradition of slow starts in DTW. Not many 1984-like exceptions.

J

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

if they keep Leyland and SHeffield they might not win a game.

Leyland blew it last year while being 7-8 games up and started platooning rookies in the of and pitching staff....well either one worked and we didnt make the playoffs. they refused to address the relief pitching and they bat their best hitters (other then Ordonez in the 4 slot) in the 5-6 holes.

SHeffield is now a "hack" and a attention grabber ,NY let him go just at the right time.

RUmors are that Inge and 2 porspects for Oaklands STreet maybe in the works.Zall i know.

We have enough hitting to get relief pitching, wether another team will trade with us will be interesting to see. Zumaya and Rodney are injured and Cruceta has not cleared his Visa.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Barry, I like that.... 0-4.

And I think it will remain a truism at the end of the season.

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Posted By: Bob

Everybody's trendy picks to go to the playoffs and finish 1-2 in the AL Central are the Tigers and Indians. Meanwhile, the young and retooled Twins and always dangerous because they can score 12 runs a game White Sox have been totally overlooked...

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Posted By: E. Angyal

Seems like some of that money may have been better spent on pitching. Next.........

Eric