Unopened Piedmont pack guaranteed tobacco card enclosed

[Archive]

Posted By: Scott B.

Just found this interesting item on t206Museum site. Anyone has the money to get this unopened pack and open it in our next National gathering to prove/disprove the tobacco tax stamp theory?

http://www.t206museum.com/page/piedmont12.html

[Archive]

Posted By: Richard Dwyer

I doubt 12 count packs contained T206 cards. Even if the pack had a card in it, it would most likely be a Bird Series, Fish Series, or Military Series tobacco card instead of a T206.

Even with a guarantee from T206museum, I wouldn't trust them at their word. If they refused to refund the purchase price when it didn't contain a T206, you would most likely have to sue them to get your money back.

The 10 pack for $15,000 has a better chance than the 12 count. But knowing that Bird, Fish & Military cards were more plentiful than T206's, I wouldn't gamble $15,000.

http://www.t206museum.com/page/piedmont10.html

[Archive]

Posted By: Jon Canfield

Just to add a little bit to this post, I just sold this exact same style pack, same tax stamp etc which was absolutely unopened on my website for $200.00.

www.baseballandtobacco.com

Also, the unopened Drum tobacco pouch that is for sale for $11,500 will absolutely not have cards inside as the cards came in cigarette packs, not pouches.

Lastly, I can't figure out for the life of me who at GAI grades these packs. Without question, they have little knowledge on cigarette packs and frankly, not too much common sense either. For example, the 10-count cigarette pack linked above by Richard is described as GAI being from 1909-1911. Now, there is a clear 1910 tax stamp on the pack and the pack clearly states L&M at the bottom. So, I would love for someone at GAI to explain to me how this pack could possibly be from 1909 or 1910? While I can't tell if there is an overprint on the pack, a proper date would be 1911-1917.

[Archive]

Posted By: Richard Dwyer

I also agree with Jon on the Drum pouch. If you're stupid enough to buy this, then you should smoke the tobacco.

Steve Rocchi is now grading tobacco boxes. I'm having 4 done this week, only to protect my packs. I provide Steve with honest info on each pack, and that's how mine get graded. I try to provide him info on where to verify what I'm claiming.

Just this week Steve called for info. I was happy to assist him.

It's two-fold. Proper grading, and then proper listing. If ones fails, consumers get conned.

[Archive]

Posted By: barry arnold

If the folks grading must be provided critical information by the owner of the pack in order to do the grading accurately, I would think that they ought not be doing the grading.
This grading world is getting more and more suspect, at least in the pack
grading arena, I am sad to say.

best,

barry

[Archive]

Posted By: Scott B.

I 100% agree with what Barry said.

Jon, does the Pied pack that you sold came with the wax outter wrapper too? I noticed both 12 cigars packs that contains T cards plus the one that they are selling have the wax wrapper.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jon Canfield

No - mine was missing the wax paper but should have been there (and was originally). That being said, there was an in depth write-up about one of these packs in REA and Rob added a lengthy addendum after some members from this board brought forth evidence as to the dating of these packs. 12-count cigarette packs were not allowed by law until 1917. This fact is not only in the tax codes but also confirmed by Springer's tax stamp guide. So, that means there are three possible theories to how cards got into Piedmont 12-count packs:

1.) They are fantasy pieces created after the fact (my belief). While this is just my theory and not a fact, I think a "scammer" could conveivably take a $300 mint T206 card and a $50 pack, re-make the pack and sell it for thousands of dollars. If the pack is ever opened, a T206 would be found inside and the buyer would be pleased he or she wasn't scammed.

2.) The T206 distribution strethed into 1917 and beyond, possibly because cards were left over and the factories were getting rid of them

3.) Either the law was wrong (and published incorrectly) or Piedmont was breaking the law and manufacturing 12-count packs before 1917. However, this theory doesn't explain how there has never been a Piedmont 12-count pack discovered with a tax stamp used in 1911-1917. Every Piedmont 12 count pack I've ever seen has the "Series A" tax stamp which wasn't produced until 1917.

http://www.baseballandtobacco.com

[Archive]

Posted By: Jon Canfield

Also, to add to Barry's post and Richard post above, I do agree that the grading of these packs is a huge problem but I can understand why Richard would want to protect his packs and thereby provide accurate information and sources to back up his info.

Regardless of who is grading these packs at GAI, they are clueless as to how to grade them and I would love to know what they use to date these packs. What source do they use to read tax stamps? Who do they consult when they date these packs? I know I've been asked numerous times by auction houses to look at cigarette packs or confirm something GAI did but who does GAI use?

Just on a funny side note, when I first obtained my American Beauty pack, it was (and is) pristine; one of my absolute favorite. While I have yet to find a 10-count slide and shell dating to 1909-11, this pack dates to 1907 and is the closest slide and shell to the T206 distribution. The tax stamp on my pack is a gorgeous 1903 series with a perfect, bold 1907 red overprint. So, off my pack went to GAI. 2 weeks later, I got back my 1909-1911 American Beauty graded pack. I just scratched my head in amusement as I cut open the brand new tomb and while GAI offered to re-slab the pack after I pointed out the mistake, it chose to let my AB pack reside in a 50-count plastic container like all my other packs, free from any GAI slabbing.

http://www.baseballandtobacco.com

[Archive]

Posted By: ethicsprof

too funny, Jon.

as you know very well, my AB pack also had the wrong dates on it from GAI but did have the very accurate grade of 9!!
and mine, as you know, is beautifully framed on my T206 wall, without tomb.

i'd like to see GAI hire you and Richard to do the grading--
might provide some spare bucks!!

all the best,

barry

[Archive]

Posted By: Richard Dwyer

I have my boxes graded for one reason only. To protect them from the elements. The grading means nothing to me.