NYPL Peck & Snyder Red Stockings Card

[ErikV]

Leon,

Many on the board realize you took quite a bit of heat for this, but I wanted to
acknowledge and thank you for doing the right thing.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/rar...cid=spartandhp

Best,

ErikV

[gnaz01]

Agreed

[irishdenny]

iN the Spirit of DoiN What iS RiGHT...
iT Makes a Difference ta me!

And Thanks Erik ,fir Pointing uS to The Article...

[Bumpus Jones]

So shines a good deed in a weary world...

[shernan30]

Great article. Leon, thanks for everything you do for Net54 and the collecting community.

[Brian Van Horn]

Leon,

You did the right thing.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by shernan30

Great article. Leon, thanks for everything you do for Net54 and the collecting community.

+1!

[h2oya311]

Originally Posted by Bumpus Jones

So shines a good deed in a weary world...

great quote from an even greater movie!

[edjs]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

great quote from an even greater movie!

That quote is from the Merchant of Venice, I believe. Willie Wonka was quoting it himself.

[ls7plus]

See, honor and integrity ARE alive and well!

Another big +1!

Larry

[h2oya311]

Originally Posted by edjs

That quote is from the Merchant of Venice, I believe. Willie Wonka was quoting it himself.

Interesting, the only quote I remember (and can actually recite) from the Merchant of Venice is the "quality of mercy" speech by Portia. I didn't realize that Wonka was quoting that piece. Thanks for the enlightenment.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by shernan30

Great article. Leon, thanks for everything you do for Net54 and the collecting community.

Originally Posted by glchen

+1!

+2

[wonkaticket]

I commend Leon for the final choice he made.

However I don't want a rose colored view of history on this. Leon was aware of issues and tried to sell the card anyway. Then when caught every angle was tried by Leon. From name calling, playing dumb, thread locking, playing the victim, getting in peoples faces, PMs to the very people he was calling names, to offline political chats.

The actions of Leon regarding this card were far from that of a hobby player who claims to do more than 99% in terms of fighting fraud than the rest of us. It should have never taken hobby collectors like myself and others to bring this to the attention of this board. It was disappointing then and looking back it still is.

However in the end a treasure was returned to the institution where its original owner wanted it to remain. That's about the best one could hope for.

Cheers,

John

[Leon]

You really don't know how sick and tired I am of hearing this absolute made up absurdity of yours. The only angles are 100% your imagination taking over. There is no rosy colored anything. I never got in anyone's face either. That was more made up crap that I wasn't commenting on before. I had a conversation, it got heated on the other side and I walked away. There was no vulgarity, no puffing of chest on my side...none of that.
You are just plain wrong....nothing more and nothing less. The best one could hope for is you understanding the truth and reality. But it doesn't seem that will happen. Carry on, I am sure you can make some more stuff up.
ps...I should add I feel it was in very poor taste to go after me, for completely erroneous reasons, during the sale of my collection. You tried hard to hurt the sale. Very poor taste indeed.

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

I commend Leon for the final choice he made.

However I don't want a rose colored view of history on this. Leon was aware of issues and tried to sell the card anyway. Then when caught every angle was tried by Leon. From name calling, playing dumb, thread locking, playing the victim, getting in peoples faces, PMs to the very people he was calling names, to offline political chats.

The actions of Leon regarding this card were far from that of a hobby player who claims to do more than 99% in terms of fighting fraud than the rest of us. It should have never taken hobby collectors like myself and others to bring this to the attention of this board. It was disappointing then and looking back it still is.

However in the end a treasure was returned to the institution where its original owner wanted it to remain. That's about the best one could hope for.

Cheers,

John

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

I commend Leon for the final choice he made.

However I don't want a rose colored view of history on this. Leon was aware of issues and tried to sell the card anyway. Then when caught every angle was tried by Leon. From name calling, playing dumb, thread locking, playing the victim, getting in peoples faces, PMs to the very people he was calling names, to offline political chats.

The actions of Leon regarding this card were far from that of a hobby player who claims to do more than 99% in terms of fighting fraud than the rest of us. It should have never taken hobby collectors like myself and others to bring this to the attention of this board. It was disappointing then and looking back it still is.

However in the end a treasure was returned to the institution where its original owner wanted it to remain. That's about the best one could hope for.

Cheers,

John

GREAT POST!!! Glad I am not the only one who feels that way.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bnorth

GREAT POST!!! Glad I am not the only one who feels that way.

You and anyone that believes this is just wrong. Had I known there was a stamp I would have addressed it the same way I did when I found out. Within a few hours I had called the NYPL and authorities. So if ya'll think I knew for any time before that, and didn't address it., there is no way I can convince you. But it's not the truth. I knew of the stamp identification the same time the rest of the board did. Those are the facts. Believe what you want to.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by shernan30

Great article. Leon, thanks for everything you do for Net54 and the collecting community.

And another +1

[Yoda]

Leon, I always thought you were a straight shooter before this mess you have endured. Now I know you are.

[wonkaticket]

Leon,

I never called you names, never filled your inbox with PMs. I have taken my position and stood by it thru the entire mess. Never once did it change.

Would you like me to share your rambling PMs to me? You know the ones in which you change your tune many times and take a slightly different approach privately with me. The golly gee Wonka take it easy I agree with you all while calling me names publicly?

I also like the one where you say you knew there were issues but you thought it would cost a few grand to figure out if it was stolen...so you didn't "really look into much more." Even though it took a few images from the internet and few minutes to figure it out. I guess I also made you discuss this on video as well showing you had good knowledge there were issues with this card.

You can continue to blame me and play the victim all you want. You made this mess you're sick of hearing about. There's no fantasy here. All this craziness is real...just you're on the wrong side of it. Again not my fault.

Devalue your auction...laughable. Your ego really is amazing. The irony is your actions and childish behavior which still continues did ultimately devalue your auction as myself and many others decided not to bid because of your attitude and shenanigans.

John

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by Leon

So if ya'll think I knew for any time before that, and didn't address it., there is no way I can convince you. But it's not the truth. I knew of the stamp identification the same time the rest of the board did. Those are the facts. Believe what you want to.

So the FBI agent never told you there was a stamp on your card, or that there were potential issues with it? So in that video of you talking to Scott you had no idea there was a possible stamp? Even though you mention the NYPL, stamp, FBI and JC's card in the video where you are unaware you're being filmed.

Your willing to say the FBI agent returned your card and said there are no markings to be seen nothing to look into the card is clear? So from 2014 to the time of listing you had no knowledge whatsoever there were any potential issues with this card.

Then why do you say things to the contrary in PMs to me and in the video?

Amazing coincidence then that HA mentioned "library stamp" as the first possibility for the mark on the back of the card....because nobody knew it was there least of all you...until that day the topic was brought up on Net54 and Hauls of Shame.

John

[j_cook]

Any way we can take a poll to ban wonkaticket from posting? He's posted his opinion on the matter dozens of times, not sure why he must continue to post it? I think he might have it saved so he can just copy/paste every so often.

Ja.y C.ook

[asphaltman]

We can probably cut to the chase on the next fifty replies to this thread if we all just read the original. Most likely it's the same verbage, part 2.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by j_cook

Any way we can take a poll to ban wonkaticket from posting? He's posted his opinion on the matter dozens of times, not sure why he must continue to post it? I think he might have it saved so he can just copy/paste every so often.

Ja.y C.ook

Go ahead and start your poll.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

So the FBI agent never told you there was a stamp on your card, or that there were potential issues with it? So in that video of you talking to Scott you had no idea there was a possible stamp? Even though you mention the NYPL, stamp, FBI and JC's card in the video where you are unaware you're being filmed.

Your willing to say the FBI agent returned your card and said there are no markings to be seen nothing to look into the card is clear? So from 2014 to the time of listing you had no knowledge whatsoever there were any potential issues with this card.

Then why do you say things to the contrary in PMs to me and in the video?

Amazing coincidence then that HA mentioned "library stamp" as the first possibility for the mark on the back of the card....because nobody knew it was there least of all you...until that day the topic was brought up on Net54 and Hauls of Shame.

John

Hi John
Let me set the record straight once again. It won't change as the truth never will, and is what I have said along. I was given the card back and told there was 100% an erased stamp on it. It was not identifiable as to where it came from. After that I let it go, obviously you haven't. As for me mentioning it could have been an NYPL stamp, absolutely true. It could have been. Could it have been stolen? Absolutely. Did I have many discussions (recorded or not) as to those facts, absolutely. None of that changes any of the facts. The HA knew, just like I and everyone else did, it could have been a library stamp or it could have been a photographers stamp. Nothing has changed. And why do you sound like you are trying to inerrogate me? That is foolish. You might try being more succinct too. If you ask the same question twice I will only answer it once.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by j_cook

Any way we can take a poll to ban wonkaticket from posting? He's posted his opinion on the matter dozens of times, not sure why he must continue to post it? I think he might have it saved so he can just copy/paste every so often.

Ja.y C.ook

Put your poll up and include me as well. John is the most honest guy in the entire hobby.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Put your poll up and include me as well. John is the most honest guy in the entire hobby.

And he is 100% wrong on this issue. The next poll will be to ban you and it might start before the day is over. Any bets on how that one comes out?

[rholmes]

Originally Posted by Leon

And he is 100% wrong on this issue. The next poll will be to ban you and it might start before the day is over. Any bets on how that one comes out?

Wow.

[autograf]

Oy

[TUM301]

Originally Posted by rholmes

Wow.

Another WOW.

[ejharrington]

Everyone should remember that the main victim in all of this was Leon; he is out $10-40K depending on how you look at it. I know he just made a lot of money in his auction and that probably helps lessen the sting but it must have been tough for him to hand over the card. I know I would be bitter about it.

[Bpm0014]

Another WOW. I love this site, and visit it multiple times per day and use almost all of the auction houses advertised, but to threaten to ban someone for starting a poll/disagreeing with you is kind of ridiculous. Kudos for Wonka for standing up for what he believes in sans fear of being banned. We may be surprised to find out how people really feel in an anonymous poll.....

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by Leon

Hi John
Let me set the record straight once again. It won't change as the truth never will, and is what I have said along. I was given the card back and told there was 100% an erased stamp on it. It was not identifiable as to where it came from. After that I let it go, obviously you haven't. As for me mentioning it could have been an NYPL stamp, absolutely true. It could have been. Could it have been stolen? Absolutely. Did I have many discussions (recorded or not) as to those facts, absolutely. None of that changes any of the facts. The HA knew, just like I and everyone else did, it could have been a library stamp or it could have been a photographers stamp. Nothing has changed. And why do you sound like you are trying to inerrogate me? That is foolish. You might try being more succinct too. If you ask the same question twice I will only answer it once.

You still manage to miss the point. Exactly right you knew there was a stamp, choose to not look into it. FBI takes your card for review and notifies you of potential issues. You say....ehhh no biggie and move on. Then you list the card for sale a year later with no research into this erased stamp. Then after it's up for sale folks who don't own the card are able to take scans and in a matter of minutes figure out it's from the NYPL. Yet somehow you couldn't do this owning the card and knowing of the issue for over a year?

Yes I had the audacity to ask and still ask. Is this what a person does who is so called so instrumental in fighting hobby fraud? You even admit to me in a PM this was a really bad call on your part.

So because I refuse to take the narrative that you were so willing to do the right thing to return this card all along. Because I see the ugly mess that it really was and think folks should remember this regardless of the very positive final outcome. For these reasons I'm an evil person. Makes perfect sense.

If this was any other collector with the above set of circumstances there would be a different tone in these threads. The main reason you see so few folks being vocal here is the fear of having the moderator ban them.

It's not that you had a stolen card could happen to any of us, it's not the final outcome which was great Leon. It's how you handled the stuff between the start and the finish line that's the issue and that you seem to take no real ownership of....short of it's everyone else's fault and any who dare disagree with the way it was handled are simply on a witch hunt.

John

[Leon]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

You still manage to miss the point. Exactly right you knew there was a stamp, choose to not look into it. FBI takes your card for review and notifies you of potential issues. You say....ehhh no biggie and move on. Then you list the card for sale a year later with no research into this erased stamp. Then after it's up for sale folks who don't own the card are able to take scans and in a matter of minutes figure out it's from the NYPL. Yet somehow you couldn't do this owning the card and knowing of the issue for over a year?

Yes I had the audacity to ask and still ask. Is this what a person does who is so called so instrumental in fighting hobby fraud? You even admit to me in a PM this was a really bad call on your part.

So because I refuse to take the narrative that you were so willing to do the right thing to return this card all along. Because I see the ugly mess that it really was and think folks should remember this regardless of the very positive final outcome. For these reasons I'm an evil person. Makes perfect sense.

If this was any other collector with the above set of circumstances there would be a different tone in these threads. The main reason you see so few folks being vocal here is the fear of having the moderator ban them.

It's not that you had a stolen card could happen to any of us, it's not the final outcome which was great Leon. It's how you handled the stuff between the start and the finish line that's the issue and that you seem to take no real ownership of....short of it's everyone else's fault and any who dare disagree with the way it was handled are simply on a witch hunt.

John

Wrong. No need to address it again.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

Another WOW. I love this site, and visit it multiple times per day and use almost all of the auction houses advertised, but to threaten to ban someone for starting a poll/disagreeing with you is kind of ridiculous. Kudos for Wonka for standing up for what he believes in sans fear of being banned. We may be surprised to find out how people really feel in an anonymous poll.....

Personally I think he is trying to be banned so he can have a cause, as it is he is a rebel without a cause. Kudos for that.

[asphaltman]

I would like to take a three pound meat tenderizer and smash my fingers with it.

[smokelessjoe]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

You still manage to miss the point. Exactly right you knew there was a stamp, choose to not look into it. FBI takes your card for review and notifies you of potential issues. You say....ehhh no biggie and move on. Then you list the card for sale a year later with no research into this erased stamp. Then after it's up for sale folks who don't own the card are able to take scans and in a matter of minutes figure out it's from the NYPL. Yet somehow you couldn't do this owning the card and knowing of the issue for over a year?

Yes I had the audacity to ask and still ask. Is this what a person does who is so called so instrumental in fighting hobby fraud? You even admit to me in a PM this was a really bad call on your part.

So because I refuse to take the narrative that you were so willing to do the right thing to return this card all along. Because I see the ugly mess that it really was and think folks should remember this regardless of the very positive final outcome. For these reasons I'm an evil person. Makes perfect sense.

If this was any other collector with the above set of circumstances there would be a different tone in these threads. The main reason you see so few folks being vocal here is the fear of having the moderator ban them.

It's not that you had a stolen card could happen to any of us, it's not the final outcome which was great Leon. It's how you handled the stuff between the start and the finish line that's the issue and that you seem to take no real ownership of....short of it's everyone else's fault and any who dare disagree with the way it was handled are simply on a witch hunt.

John

It has been my experience that when someone is being as repetitive as Wonka is - there are other underlying issues. 99% of the time - again my experience.

A few reasons.

Power Trip
Envious
Personal / Feelings Hurt
Vindictive
Many others...


Every time I run across this, I have noticed that it is extremely difficult for the perpetrator to look within themselves to try & figure out why they feel the need to repeat their point while others make their point and move on
(I'm betting Wonka does not have this ability either). My guess is that Wonka has some emotions / feelings that are hurt. I have a sneaky suspicion these two need to do what my grandmother used to make my sister & I do...
Hug & Kiss... Meanwhile she would remark "AWWWEEEE".

[wonkaticket]

How's that Psych 101 class working out for you?

[smokelessjoe]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

How's that Psych 101 class working out for you?

Ahhhh.... Nice, you are coping well.

[1880nonsports]

to express their interpretation of events and their feelings about how they saw things play out to the degree they have felt necessary. Questions have been asked and answered more than once. Nothing has changed in that regard as it relates to their positions. I'm hoping that as two mostly rational people they agree by moratorium to move on. Sometimes when the outcome is right - the serpentine road and weary travelers should be left behind.

Often life gives you the test and then the lesson. We all have lessons to learn.

[RCMcKenzie]

My expectation is that the white hat wearing library administrators will de-access the baseball card in the future and allocate the funds.

[ErikV]

John,

Sounds like you really got an ax to grind. I'm curious, what would it take, or
would you like Leon to say or do to please you? Again, the card was given back
to the NYPL. What else could Leon possibly do at this point to make things right?

ErikV

[asphaltman]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

How's that Psych 101 class working out for you?

Modern day translation: What you just said was super harsh.

Originally Posted by smokelessjoe

Ahhhh.... Nice, you are coping well.

Modern day translation: You’re as timid and skittish as those ugly pigeons at the park. Man up.

[1880nonsports]

I started to think about donating to a museum at some later time in my life. At one point after seeing an anemic early tobacconist exhibit at the Flagler museum I thought that might be a good spot. Then I learned about de-accession - not gonna happen. Rather my things be sold in the open market to get them into the hands of appreciative collectors despite the likely ten cents on the dollar return :-)

sorry for the off topic post but you crossed into my wheelhouse.....

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by 1880nonsports

I started to think about donating to a museum at some later time in my life. At one point after seeing an anemic early tobacconist exhibit at the Flagler museum I thought that might be a good spot. Then I learned about de-accession - not gonna happen. Rather my things be sold in the open market to get them into the hands of appreciative collectors despite the likely ten cents on the dollar return :-)

sorry for the off topic post but you crossed into my wheelhouse.....

To stay off topic. I did donate several cards to a museum this spring. I donated Ruth, Williams, Mantle, Mays, and several other players. All the cards where graded and from when they actually played. I had been working with the museum for several months before they received the cards. It gave me time to get the cards and have some of them graded. To this day they are not on display and I highly doubt I would ever do it again.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by ErikV

John,

Sounds like you really got an ax to grind. I'm curious, what would it take, or
would you like Leon to say or do to please you? Again, the card was given back
to the NYPL. What else could Leon possibly do at this point to make things right?

ErikV

Erik, happy to answer. All that was originally said was that it was a great outcome but getting there is far from the cliff notes version of what Leon is now saying. That turned into Leon insinuating that I'm making up stories. Which offended me as I think it would most if you.

Leon knows and he's welcome to deny that he and I exchanged quite a few civil PMs during the mess. In which he admits to knowing there was a mark the day the FBI returned his card. He said he didn't bother to look into it beyond that. His reasoning was that nobody he talked to said they would look into it. He also states that he thought researching the mark to identify it was going to be expensive so he didn't bother. Even though it was easily deduced from simple scans. He also admitted to me that in hindsight he should have taken the time to look into the mark...but he just didn't because he felt most wouldn't bother.

Now fast forward and it's he only really knew about the mark the day it was made public here and after it was listed for sale. This is either not true or if it true it's only because Leon choose to ignore an issue and list the card for sale without any due diligence in regards to the issues he was made aware of by the FBI.

Sorry if I have an issue with a person playing nice in PMs and taking quite a bit more responsibility behind close doors for some not so smart choices of ignoring issues around an item. All while playing a different hand to the public. I've never claimed he willing knew of the mark being a NYPL mark. But I have stayed true to the fact that he had every chance to find out what this mark was and choose to ignore or take no action until after it was brought to light by others. That's what bothers me about the whole thing.

Again if any of the above is not true please feel free to correct Leon.

I would ask if this wasn't Leon if these actions and choices were played by anyone else would everyone be so quick to dismiss and turn the the tables. Keep in mind it wasn't me who was looking to profit from a questionable item through poor choices or other reasons.

Cheers,

John

[smokelessjoe]

Wonka,

I am certain that if you realized how many times you've repeated yourself, you would stop. You are too smart for this. Surely you realize that at a certain point whether you're right or wrong you start to appear in a negative light that in fact you are wrong. You start to make yourself "look bad" you realize that right? Have you thought about why you waited till someone posted a positive thread before you made your comments? If you had something to say, why not start your own thread? it makes you look selfish, that your point is more Important than everyone else's.

Be well,

P.s. My guess is that you'll only address my "thread" question...

[TexasLeaguer]

"Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants..."
-Louis Brandeis

[cubsfan-budman]

Leon knows and he's welcome to deny that he and I exchanged quite a few civil PMs during the mess. In which he admits to knowing there was a mark the day the FBI returned his card. He said he didn't bother to look into it beyond that. His reasoning was that nobody he talked to said they would look into it. He also states that he thought researching the mark to identify it was going to be expensive so he didn't bother. Even though it was easily deduced from simple scans. He also admitted to me that in hindsight he should have taken the time to look into the mark...but he just didn't because he felt most wouldn't bother.

the FBI had the card in their hands, looked at it and decided to give it back to leon. that's about where i'd stop investigating, myself. if they didn't know what it was, i wouldn't personally bother doing much more.

also, the transcript of the conversation between him and brockelman say diddly squat that implicates anyone. the FBI could easily have told leon why they wanted to look at the card...and knowing that NYPL was involved, they'd know the history behind those thefts. when the FBI gave the card a thumbs up, that's about all i'd need to know.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Erik, happy to answer. All that was originally said was that it was a great outcome but getting there is far from the cliff notes version of what Leon is now saying. That turned into Leon insinuating that I'm making up stories. Which offended me as I think it would most if you.

Leon knows and he's welcome to deny that he and I exchanged quite a few civil PMs during the mess. In which he admits to knowing there was a mark the day the FBI returned his card. He said he didn't bother to look into it beyond that. His reasoning was that nobody he talked to said they would look into it. He also states that he thought researching the mark to identify it was going to be expensive so he didn't bother. Even though it was easily deduced from simple scans. He also admitted to me that in hindsight he should have taken the time to look into the mark...but he just didn't because he felt most wouldn't bother.

Now fast forward and it's he only really knew about the mark the day it was made public here and after it was listed for sale. This is either not true or if it true it's only because Leon choose to ignore an issue and list the card for sale without any due diligence in regards to the issues he was made aware of by the FBI.

Sorry if I have an issue with a person playing nice in PMs and taking quite a bit more responsibility behind close doors for some not so smart choices of ignoring issues around an item. All while playing a different hand to the public. I've never claimed he willing knew of the mark being a NYPL mark. But I have stayed true to the fact that he had every chance to find out what this mark was and choose to ignore or take no action until after it was brought to light by others. That's what bothers me about the whole thing.

Again if any of the above is not true please feel free to correct Leon.

I would ask if this wasn't Leon if these actions and choices were played by anyone else would everyone be so quick to dismiss and turn the the tables. Keep in mind it wasn't me who was looking to profit from a questionable item through poor choices or other reasons.

Cheers,

John

First of all in those rapid fire PMs there is no doubt I was placating you. That was a mistake and I will admit that. (as I said on the phone today) And the ID wasn't deduced from simple scans. The scan was 1200dpi and an exemplar overlay was used. Not quite a simple scan. And if you are going post about PM's why not say the whole context?

"I guess I should have pursued it in retrospect...but no one I have spoken with personally would have done that. What can I say?"


So yes, in 20/20 hindsight it would have been good to pursue further because a mark was eventually ID'd. But with the information at hand I made the correct decision at the time and would make all of the same decisions again. The authorities knew every single thing I did with the card before, during and after the return. If I was trying to hide something I wasn't hanging with the right people. But again John, I don't think I will ever convince you of the truth.

[travrosty]

"The scan was 1200dpi and an exemplar overlay was used. Not quite a simple scan. And if you are going post about PM's why not say the whole context? "
--------------------------------------

I guess no one had a good scanner?

this isnt an overlay, it is clearly the word library that the owner of the card for over a year had the opportunity to closely inspect it. its quite obvious it is the word 'library' and 'library stamp' was the first word the AH used in the description. Leon, was it your verbiage or the AH verbiage to use that paragraph about the stamp. Did you give them the exact sentence to use, or did they think of it? please answer this question.