Old Judge Book Contest

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Posted By: Jay

The Old Judge book is almost complete, but there is one loose end that I would like to get cleared up before we go to press. In the book we provide short bios of all 521 subjects in the set. We have substantive information about 520 of these subjects, but I am still trying to find something to tie Fischer to the Chicago Maroons. Fischer is listed as a pitcher for the team and based on the background in his Old Judge card appears to have been present in the same photo shoot as Charles Boyd (see scans). Fischer never played a regular season game for the Maroons, probably meaning he tried out for the team, was part of the team photo shoot, and was then released prior to the start of the season. The photo shoot would have been some time in April, 1888. Usually, something about even the most obscure players is found in The Sporting News, but all the sources of The Sporting News that I have seen are missing the April editions. I would look in the Chicago newspapers from April, 1888 if I had access to them, but I don't. So, we are having a contest. Anyone who can find information tieing Fischer to the Maroons will receive a complementary copy of the book and will also be acknowledged in the text (and will have my undying gratitude).

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Posted By: Paul

I don't have an answer, but just wanted to say -- my God those are crysal clear photos.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Not to mention two very tough cards.

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Posted By: Adam Baxter

This reference will definitely be a must-have. What will be the price for this book and when is due to be released?

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Posted By: Anonymous

Try the Society of American Baseball Research...

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Posted By: Jeff O

Jay, I checked the Paper of Record database of TSN, which appears to include April 1888, and I couldn't find any references to Fischer. I also checked the online encyclopedia on the SABR site with no luck (just posting this so others don't take the time to do the same thing...).

Jeff

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Posted By: Max Weder

Jeff (or Jay)

Did you post the request on SABR-L? If not, let me know and I can post.

Max

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Posted By: Jay

I have not posted the question on the SABR site although I have asked Reed Howard and Ray Nemec, and neither had the information.

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Posted By: Jay

I have been using the Paper of Record site as well as microfilm versions of TSN that I got from the University of Notre Dame library and they are both missing April, 1888 editions.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Jay, I was optimistic that something might be found on Fischer, when you posted this.

But if Ray Nemec didn't have anything, it seems quite a longshot that anything is out there. Ray's the Man.

I'll look... and I'll start a search in Chicago.

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Posted By: Mike

Jay: What specific questions would you like answered about Fischer ? I have an historial library in town and will check if they have any Chicago Newspapers on microfilm from 1888. If so, I'll go thru them for you and try to find the information you need. Let me know. Mike

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Posted By: Jay

Thanks Frank
Mike--Anything tieing him to the Maroons--saying he was reporting, talking about him in association with the team. Really any snipet of info.

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Posted By: Craig

The baseball encyclopedia lists a pitcher last name Fisher no first name given.
He played for Philadelphia in 1884 and Buffalo in 1885 lifetime record of 1-8
Born in Johnstown PA.
Sound like the type of journeyman pitcher who might get a tryout from the Maroons

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Posted By: Mike

Jay : I only could get very limited access to the Chicago Tribune newspapers. I could not find Fischer listed in any article I was able to look at.

Here's an article from 10-28-1887 in the Tribune:
10-28-1887: " The following players have been signed by Sam Morton for the Western Association team to be located in this city. Ed Dugdale of Peoria, who caught for the Kansas City team of 1886 and the Utica Team of 1887, Fred Long, third baseman of the Lincoln, Neb team of this season, John Crogan, right field and John Dunn, pitcher of the Wheeling, VA team of this season, M. Hengle, second baseman of the Utica team of 1887. It is thought Lou Schoeneck, the big first baseman who played with the Portland, ME team this year and Sunday and Sprague will also be members of the new team ."

The Chicago Maroons played the Chicago White Stockings (NL) in an exhibition game (pre-season) on 4-15-1888: The lineup was: 1b- Schoeneck, 2b - Hengle, 3b- Lange, SS- Long, OF - Crogan, Moriarity and Rooks, C- McCauley and P- Nicholson.

Go to Chicagotribune.com and under search type in archives and go from there. It costs but you may find something there. If not, need to go to a major library.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Mike--That's some good information. Hopefully, some Chicago resident will have an opportunity to access a period newspaper.

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Posted By: Adam Baxter

I did a little research and while there were a few Fishers that played before and after the Old Judge set was released, this was the only one that really came close:

Charles Fisher

Birthplace- Baltimore, MD

DOB- Unknown

POD- Unknown

Team- 1889 Louisville Colonels, AA

Position- Sub.

Games- 1

At bats- 2

Hits- 2

BA- .500

SA- .500

If it is him then apparently he tried out for the Maroons in '88, didn't make the team, and then appeared for a cup of coffee with Louisville in '89.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Charles Fisher was an amateur player from Baltimore who was hired along with 2 other teammates to play one game when only 6 Louisville players showed up for a game. I believe the others were protesting a fine. Its doubtful it was him since he was an amateur still a year later. The Western Association was a very good minor league,probably equal to AAA now so I can't imagine if he was good enough to get a tryout he wasn't good enough to play in another lower minor league,even one closer to home

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Posted By: Mike

Jay: I have found the following players who pitched for the Maroons in 1888 and Fischer is not one of them. they are: Dunn, Nicholson,Clarkson(brother of John), Dwyer and Sprague.

From the few box scores and articles I have seen so far Fischer was not orginally signed when the team was formed at the end of October, 1887. He also did not pitch in any of the games I have been able to view ( which is only a few), but they consisted of pre-season games and some regular season games in April and May.

Question: Is this photo really a guy named Fischer or is it someone else ?

Also did Boyd play for the Maroons ? I haven't seen his name listed in my limited research.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Based on the fact that nobody has been able to tie Fischer to the Maroons, it looks like he may have never played for them. So now the question is why does he have a card?

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Posted By: Mike

Barry: As you know many players had their photos taken in the pre-season and never played for that team, but usually we can find a game or two in the pre-season or an article indicating their release. With Fischer nothing yet ! Need someone to check a few weeks in the Chicago papers.

The 1886 Detroit Lorillard card has a photo of Hall - C and he never played for the Detroit team, but did play in exhibition games during the pre-season and during the season.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Mike- that is why Fischer has become the very last player left to be identified.

They were able to find 520 out of 521, but one player seems to have eluded them.

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Posted By: Marc S.

Splash the cover of the book with a contest highlighting "Identify the last Old Judge baseball player, and win a free Old Judge card" type contest.

Although it is tragic that this piece of minutae has not been clarified after so many decades, perhaps a renewed focus on it can solve the mystery once and for all. Make a contest out of it, spam SABR and all the appropriate relevant sites, and see if this can be resolved once and for all.

It would be a fitting end to what has had to have been one of the most extensive pre-19th century endeavours undertaken, particularly from a collecting perspective. The time, analysis and pure love of this set that Jay [among many others] have poured into this effort is without parallel, and is truly an exciting moment for the hobby.

M

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Posted By: Joe_G.

Glad to see someone read the Tomlinson article. Charles Hall information was easy to find with the right reference material (Detroit Free Press, Detroit News, and more on microfilm).

We are hoping someone in the Chicago area can do the same for Fischer.

The Fischer mystery, if solved, is merely the tip of the iceberg w.r.t. new research being published for the first time.

Best Regards,
Joe Gonsowski

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Posted By: Jay

As I mentioned, Fischer never played a regular season game for the Maroons. Neither did Boyd, but there is info about him in TSN, including when he was scheduled to report. As also mentioned above, the photo shoots were prior to the regular season. If the player happened to be part of the team during that time, he got his picture taken. The fact that Fischer has a card, in a Maroon uniform, means that he was part of the team for some period of time. That period could have been a day or two, a week, or several weeks. He was not on the team at the beginning of April, 1888. He was not on the team at the end of April, 1888 when the season started. Did he play in a pre-season game for the Maroons--possibly. I have not seen any April Maroon box scores. The possibility exists that he never played in any game for them, but even so, even the lowliest walk-ons received some mention in TSN, and I would think that any local paper with decent baseball coverage would have mentioned a potential player. Could he have been using an assumed name (like Stowe/Stovey)--sure. That might hinder efforts to find prior or future stats, but he still would have been identified in the press using the assumed name.
There is no elegant way to find stuff out about guys like this--the only path to positive results (if such a path exists) is digging through newspapers.

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

"Eight of the Chicago Maroons, Dunn, Hengle, Shoeneck, Long, Lange, Rooks, Nicholson, and Moriarty have been doing steady work in a Chicago gymnasium and are in good trim now. As now constituted the team stands: Dugdale and McCauley, catchers; Dunn, Clarkson and Nicholson, pitchers; Shoeneck, first base; Hengle, second base; Lange, third base; Crogan, Long, Rooks and Moriarty, fielders."

Sorry, no Fischer. Too bad for him since it sounds like he missed out on all that good trim the Maroons were in.

-Ryan

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Two nearby leagues disbanded after 1887 - The Western League and the Northwestern League and I'm sure the rosters of the newly formed Western Association were filled with players from those teams so a good bet is that this Fischer came from one of those teams, tried out and made it long enough to get his photo taken, but never pitched for them. It's also possible there could be ties to the city of St Louis since most of the players from the Western League came out of St Louis when Al Spink (Sporting News editor) tried to keep the league alive in 1886.

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Posted By: Mike

Whoever has the Fischer photo please email to me and I'll send to a guy who is a fellow SABR member and maybe he has access to Chicago papers. My email is: theline06@hotmail.com Thanks Mike

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Posted By: Mike

Jay: I have a question. Do any of the other Chicago Maroons cards have the same background as Boyd and Fischer ? The cards of the others I have seen have a different background scene which could mean they were photographed at a different time from the rest of the team. Let me know. Thanks Mike