Maddux, Glavine, and the Big Hurt in the HOF

[h2oya311]

Frank Thomas is in! First ballot. Shocking! Biggio gets snubbed again w/ 74.8%!!

Not shocking is that Maddux and Glavine got in.

And the BBW who voted for Kenny Rogers and/or Armando Benitez and/or Jacque Jones should be barred from ever voting again (or shot on the spot).

[packs]

Good class and nice that they go in with Bobby Cox. It's just too bad Smoltz didn't retire the same year. How great would that have been (assuming he gets elected)?

Is there a source reporting total votes for everyone? I can't seem to find one.

[Robextend]

MLB.COM

Player (Years on ballot) Total Votes Percentage
Greg Maddux (1) 555 97.2
Tom Glavine (1) 525 91.9
Frank Thomas (1) 478 83.7
Craig Biggio (2) 427 74.8
Mike Piazza (2) 355 62.2
Jack Morris (15) 351 61.5
Jeff Bagwell (4) 310 54.3
Tim Raines (7) 263 46.1
Roger Clemens (2) 202 35.4
Barry Bonds (2) 198 34.7
Lee Smith (12) 171 29.9
Curt Schilling (2) 167 29.2
Edgar Martinez (5) 144 25.2
Alan Trammell (13) 119 20.8
Mike Mussina (1) 116 20.3
Jeff Kent (1) 87 15.2
Fred McGriff (8) 67 11.7
Mark McGwire (8) 63 11.0
Larry Walker (4) 58 10.2
Don Mattingly (14) 47 8.2
Sammy Sosa (2) 41 7.2
Rafael Palmeiro (4) 25 4.4
Moises Alou (1) 6 1.1
Hideo Nomo (1) 6 1.1
Luis Gonzalez (1) 5 0.9
Eric Gagne (1) 2 0.4
J.T. Snow (1) 2 0.4
Armando Benitez (1) 1 0.2
Jacque Jones (1) 1 0.2
Kenny Rogers (1) 1 0.2
Sean Casey (1) 0 0.0
Ray Durham (1) 0 0.0
Todd Jones (1) 0 0.0
Paul Lo Duca (1) 0 0.0
Richie Sexson (1) 0 0.0
Mike Timlin (1) 0 0.0

[Big Six]

Thrilled for all three guys, especially Frank Thomas! But is anyone else amazed that next year that Don Mattingly is on the ballot for the 15th and FINAL time??? Boy, I'm getting old...

[packs]

At least he got more than Palmeiro and Sosa.

I'm very surprised at how little support Mussina and Jeff Kent got.

What's the story with Kent? Do people think he juiced? Aside from Sandberg, I can't think of a better second baseman during his prime.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

No argument by me regarding the 3 that got in. I'm a bit surprised Biggio and Piazza got snubbed again, but then electing 5 players into the Hall would seem a bit much.

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by packs

At least he got more than Palmeiro and Sosa.

I'm very surprised at how little support Mussina and Jeff Kent got.

What's the story with Kent? Do people think he juiced? Aside from Sandberg, I can't think of a better second baseman during his prime.

I am with you on Kent, one of the top offensive 2B of all time. Could his awful relationship with the press be a factor? If it is, that's just nonsense, but I can't think of anything else. I can't recall him ever coming under PED suspicion.

[CMIZ5290]

Does anyone know how Maddox will go in, Braves or Cubs?

[Peter_Spaeth]

According to the JAWS metric used by Baseball Reference, Kent is ranked 17th among second basemen, and Biggio 14th.

[h2oya311]

I'm not surprised that Thomas got in, but expected it to be a few years. I guess I'm just surprised that this is really the first "DH" to get in, and to do it in "first ballot" style is shocking.

As for 2nd basemen, I'd take Biggio over Kent almost any time. Both benefitted from having awesome players batting behind them, but Kent REALLY benefitted from having Bonds batting behind him. And I'm sure his association w/ Bonds (at least by being on the same team) hurt him in voting as well. Guilty by association.

I can't tell, but it was either 1 or 2 votes more that Biggio needed in order to get in. Disgusting!

[VoodooChild]

How is Biggio not in yet? How can they justify voting nobody in last year when a guy with 3,000+ hits, including hitting more doubles than any other right-handed batter ever, all while playing THREE of the most difficult and physically demanding positions C, 2B, CF, was on the ballot. And then for him to not get in this year was a total snub. I'm sure he'll get in next year, but still felt like ranting a little. I just really appreciated the way he played the game....Old School.

[Robextend]

Don't wanna argue too much on Biggio v Kent, but Kent batted 290 for his career vs Biggio's 280 which tells you that Biggio was a bit of a compiler...his last 6 or so years he hit more homers than he usually did, but his peripheral numbers kind of stunk.

The only 2B in history with more RBI (1,518) than Kent are Hornsby and Lajoie. And I could be wrong but I believe he has the most HRs ever by a 2B.

In any event, Biggio will get in next year and it looks like Kent never will.

[bravesfan22]

As a huge braves fan I am so happy to see my favorite player tom glavine go in. I was 7 when the braves won the world series and I remember it like it was yesterday. That could be because I watched the world series tape released after what seemed like every day for years. Go Braves!

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by packs

At least he got more than Palmeiro and Sosa.

I'm very surprised at how little support Mussina and Jeff Kent got.

What's the story with Kent? Do people think he juiced? Aside from Sandberg, I can't think of a better second baseman during his prime.

Surprised by Mussina myself, getting so little of the vote. Read an article recently that showed he compared very favorably to Glavine. Adjusting to leagues and opponents he actually out-performs Glavine in many categories.

Difference is, Glavine has the Cy Youngs and 300 Wins, and Mussina doesn't. Also surprising how much better of a WHIP, Mussina had then Glavine.

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Does anyone know how Maddox will go in, Braves or Cubs?

It's up to the Hall of Fame, with some input from the players, but I'd be shocked if he didn't go in with the Braves. One more season in Atlanta, 510 more innings and he was much better with them. That should be enough to safely assume it's with Braves.

The Jeff Kent lack of support surprises me a little, though with ten maximum votes and at least 16 legit candidates, they created a logjam which won't clear up next year with Randy Johnson, John Smoltz and Pedro Martinez all on the ballot. They will replace the three guys that fell off, plus 400 other votes will open up from Jack Morris and others that received under 5% of the votes.

I've said this before, but now that he dropped off the ballot, it needs to be said again. Rafael Palmeiro may have done steroids, but I think he got screwed big time by Miguel Tejada.

First you have when he failed a test. It was after all eyes were on him. It was after he announced he was retiring. It was after he had his milestones and his team was eliminated. There was literally no reason for him to take steroids. He didn't even need to be playing when he did, he could have cut out early with zero on the line.

Then you have Tejada, who has failed two tests and was caught buying large supplies on PEDs and he claimed what he gave him was a B12 shot.

So now everyone is basing Palmeiro being guilty on the fact that he failed at a moment when he had zero to gain from cheating and his positive test came from one of the biggest known cheats(between his failed tests and supplies he bought). Tejada also lied about his age and he was banned from Winter ball for owning part of one team and playing against them. He has done so much wrong in baseball, why would anyone believe him on any subject.

Like I said, I still think Palmeiro did something prior to being caught but common sense screams that he was screwed by Tejada back then. Who knows what would have happened without that failed test, but I sincerely doubt he would be off the ballot now after reaching 3000 hits and 500 homers.

[Donscards]

I am surprised that Mike Piazza didnt get in What a great hitting catcher---I also agree Don Mattingly should get more respect--only problem with him, injuries hurt him------talking of First Baseball---when will the Old Timers select Gil Hodges!---and also go check out Ted Kluzszewski stats for 5 years in the early 50's--for 5 years, he put up HOF stats.

[frankbmd]

I've got a 1988 Fleer HOF RC of Tom Glavine for sale. Accepting offers.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by Robextend

I am with you on Kent, one of the top offensive 2B of all time. Could his awful relationship with the press be a factor? If it is, that's just nonsense, but I can't think of anything else. I can't recall him ever coming under PED suspicion.

I think any PED suspicion around Kent would be very suspicious in its own right. He (along with Glavine) were among the first to go on record and demand testing, etc. He was a "red ass" and rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, but absolutely deserves the vote. Think he'll get in eventually.

Very happy for Thomas.. he was just about the best all around hitter (prior to DH years) in baseball for a time and was one of few in the very early '90's that combined high BP/OBP with power (seems like everyone did from about 1994 on.. but he was tops before that).

Also really bugs me that Crime Dog is virtually a forgotten man. Never heard any PED rumors there and for a time from the late '80's into mid-late '90s he was the most consistently good power hitter in baseball. I will never forget how his aquisition and Aug/Sep hitting offensively carried the Braves past my 103 win Giants in the 1993 West Race. Didn't have those fluke (or juice) induced 50 plus HR breakouts, but ALWAYS hit over 30. Compared to Tony Perez, Jim Rice, Orlando Cepeda, Yaz, etc I have no idea why he's not getting more consideration.

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by Donscards

I am surprised that Mike Piazza didnt get in What a great hitting catcher---I also agree Don Mattingly should get more respect--only problem with him, injuries hurt him------talking of First Baseball---when will the Old Timers select Gil Hodges!---and also go check out Ted Kluzszewski stats for 5 years in the early 50's--for 5 years, he put up HOF stats.

Gil Hodges was so good that a lot of people think he is in the Hall of Fame. My grandfather was a baseball fan his whole life, he assumed Hodges was in when we went there. My dad didn't really see much of him, but from what he heard, he thought he was in already. When I was at the HOF, I heard a small group of older people say they couldn't find his plaque and they guessed they missed it. I didn't break the news to them.

He played in seven World Series, had seven straight 100 RBI seasons, eight time all-star. He won three Gold Gloves, an award they didn't have during his first ten seasons and he missed two years to WWII after making his debut.

I'd also throw him a bone for managing 1969 Mets and the fact he started as a catcher, not that I think he needs either footnote to get in.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think McGriff was hurt by not being associated with any one team. His numbers compare quite favorably to, for example, Andre Dawson, and look a lot better than Cepeda or Tony Perez.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

I've got a 1988 Fleer HOF RC of Tom Glavine for sale. Accepting offers.

Frank- is it a PSA 10 or SGC 98?

[midwaylandscaping]

Frank was a historically great hitter from 91-97. Put together 2 more MVP type seasons in 2000 and 2006. Some struggles in and around those years but let's face it, Frank's about as close to a first ballot 80's/90's hitter as you're going to find in this day and age. I was surprised so many thought he wouldn't make it first time around. Biggio gets in soon. Piazza I guess in 2-3 more tries. Kent, wow. Tough one. So many on the ballot affects the Kent's, Mussina's and McGriff's.

[howard38]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

I'm not surprised that Thomas got in, but expected it to be a few years. I guess I'm just surprised that this is really the first "DH" to get in, and to do it in "first ballot" style is shocking.

As for 2nd basemen, I'd take Biggio over Kent almost any time. Both benefitted from having awesome players batting behind them, but Kent REALLY benefitted from having Bonds batting behind him. And I'm sure his association w/ Bonds (at least by being on the same team) hurt him in voting as well. Guilty by association.

I can't tell, but it was either 1 or 2 votes more that Biggio needed in order to get in. Disgusting!

Bonds didn't hit behind Kent. The usual batting order had Bonds third and Kent fourth. It was still a benefit to Kent but not the kind you might see if pitchers grooved pitches to him because they were afraid to walk him.

[howard38]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

I think any PED suspicion around Kent would be very suspicious in its own right. He (along with Glavine) were among the first to go on record and demand testing, etc. He was a "red ass" and rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, but absolutely deserves the vote. Think he'll get in eventually.

Very happy for Thomas.. he was just about the best all around hitter (prior to DH years) in baseball for a time and was one of few in the very early '90's that combined high BP/OBP with power (seems like everyone did from about 1994 on.. but he was tops before that).

Also really bugs me that Crime Dog is virtually a forgotten man. Never heard any PED rumors there and for a time from the late '80's into mid-late '90s he was the most consistently good power hitter in baseball. I will never forget how his aquisition and Aug/Sep hitting offensively carried the Braves past my 103 win Giants in the 1993 West Race. Didn't have those fluke (or juice) induced 50 plus HR breakouts, but ALWAYS hit over 30. Compared to Tony Perez, Jim Rice, Orlando Cepeda, Yaz, etc I have no idea why he's not getting more consideration.

Crime Dog had the bad luck to have his best season during the strike year of 1994. He was on pace for about fifty HRs which would not only given him the huge year voters love but also would have put him over 500 for his career.

[brewing]

Biggio and Kent should be thankful. Whitaker didn't even get enough votes to stay on the ballot his first year.

Jeff Kent
2461 Hits 377 HR 1518 RBI .356 OBP .855 OPS 123 OPS+ 55.2 BBRef WAR

Craig Biggio
3030 Hits 291 HR 1175 RBI .363 OBP .796 OPS 112 OPS+ 64.9 BBRef WAR

Lou Whitaker
2369 Hits 244 HR 1084 RBI .363 OBP .789 OPS 117 OPS+ 74.8 BBRef WAR

Ryne Sandberg
2386 Hits 282 HR 1061 RBI .344 OBP .795 OPS 114 OPS+ 67.6 BBRef WAR

Roberto Alomar
2724 Hits 210 HR 1134 RBI .371 OBP .814 OPS 116 OPS+ 66.8 BBRef WAR

[sycks22]

Love seeing my favorite player the "Big Hurt" got in. He was never linked to being a juicer and voters agreed. I love how former twin Jacque Jones got 1 vote. Probably the same guy who didn't vote for Biggio and put him 2 votes away from the hall.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by z28jd

Like I said, I still think Palmeiro did something prior to being caught but common sense screams that he was screwed by Tejada back then. Who knows what would have happened without that failed test, but I sincerely doubt he would be off the ballot now after reaching 3000 hits and 500 homers.

Without the failed test, he WOULDN'T be on the ballot right now, he'd have already been elected..

[packs]

Are you forgetting the circus Palmeiro voluntarily created for himself? He demanded to speak in front of Congress and then lied to everyone on video tape about taking drugs only to fail shortly after his appearance.

He is a joke and should never be considered for the HOF. There is nothing to feel sorry for either as he brought this all on himself.

[midwaylandscaping]

Raffy brought that on himself, no doubt. Couldn't have made himself look like a bigger fool.
Not wanting to create a crapstorm, but there's a part of me that's surprised Roberto Alomar, I player I like, collect a few things of, got in as quick as he did with the AIDS/HIV/Gay rumors circling around him as they were. It would not have shocked me if he had been blackballed. The way these voters are.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Does anyone know how Maddox will go in, Braves or Cubs?

I'm certain as a Brave.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by packs

Are you forgetting the circus Palmeiro voluntarily created for himself? He demanded to speak in front of Congress and then lied to everyone on video tape about taking drugs only to fail shortly after his appearance.

He is a joke and should never be considered for the HOF. There is nothing to feel sorry for either as he brought this all on himself.

+1 big time....

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by packs

Are you forgetting the circus Palmeiro voluntarily created for himself? He demanded to speak in front of Congress and then lied to everyone on video tape about taking drugs only to fail shortly after his appearance.

He is a joke and should never be considered for the HOF. There is nothing to feel sorry for either as he brought this all on himself.

That's why I don't feel sorry for him and like I said, I believe he did steroids at some point, as did most players in that era. What I do believe is that he would still be on the ballot if not for Tejada. There is just too much pointing towards his test being the fault of Tejada to not say the result, while correct, was tainted by someone else. There was absolutely no reason for him to be on steroids when he failed and plenty of reasons why it didn't make any sense, especially with all the focus on him.

[JollyElm]

Two thoughts:

Kent was an offensive dynamo, an RBI machine at second base. Come on!! He definitely should be in. I cried when the Mets traded him away.

Speaking of the Mets, Glavine was just a waste of space when he ended up at Shea. It was a joke for us to say, "If the Hall of Fame voters ignore his time on the Mets, Glavine may get in."

Pete Rose

[chris6net]

Would have liked to see Biggio get in. I went to HS with him in Kings Park NY. He was 1 year younger but I played little league and up with him and he was a star from 6 years old. He also won the award in his senior year at Kings Park for best football player in Suffolk County which has over one million people in the county(very impressive)
CN

[the 'stache]

What I want to know is who are the 16 idiots that didn't have Greg Maddux on their ballots? Seriously?

355 wins
3.16 ERA in the steroid era
3,371 K

1.8 BB/9 IP (second lowest of any pitcher in the modern era)
59.44 Win Probability Added, second all-time for pitchers behind only Roger Clemens

4 consecutive Cy Young Awards
5 other top 5 Cy Young finishes
18 Gold Gloves

Greg Maddux never had an overpowering fastball. He outsmarted and outplayed his opponents. He's one of the most consistently great players to ever step on the diamond, yet 16 people thought he wasn't worthy of induction on the first ballot?

Edit:

For the record, I am glad that Glavine made it (no surprise there), and Thomas, too. That was a bit of a surprise, but well deserved in my opinion. I do think that Biggio should be in.

I am also agree with the voters on Jack Morris. I don't think he is a Hall of Famer. A 3.90 ERA in an era that slightly favored pitchers just doesn't impress me.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

What I want to know is who are the 16 idiots that didn't have Greg Maddux on their ballots? Seriously?

+1

[packs]

Plus 1 from me too. These voters had the opportunity to watch his entire career, one that mirrored pitchers of a century ago. Why would you not vote for him? To be able to say you didn't vote for Greg Maddux? Who would be impressed?

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by tschock

+1

+2...

[Mikehealer]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

What I want to know is who are the 16 idiots that didn't have Greg Maddux on their ballots? Seriously?
.

Maybe they focused too much on his losing record in the postseason.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Mikehealer

Maybe they focused too much on his losing record in the postseason.

Yeah, 11-14. Pretty bad. I can see where, for these writers, Mathewson and Johnson's mediocre .500 post season record would have given them pause to vote for them as well.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

I'm not surprised that Thomas got in, but expected it to be a few years. I guess I'm just surprised that this is really the first "DH" to get in, and to do it in "first ballot" style is shocking...

Along with his 521 homers (which he hit without any artificial help), Big Frank had the third highest OBP among right-handed hitters of all time, and the 14th highest OPS period! Early in his prime, virtually all of the Sox's games were on WGN, and I watched everyone of his at bats. This guy had the consistency and all-fields power of Cabrera, and walked like Mantle and Williams! One of only seven players to have more than 1500 RBI and 1000 BB (and one of those was Bonds, who is in an altogether different category). What would have been shocking is if he wouldn't have gotten in on the first ballot!

Regards,

Larry

[t206blogcom]

Glad to see Maddux get in, but a bit surprised his vote percentage wasn't higher. Anyone who didn't vote for Maddux should be barred from future voting in my opinion.

I knew Glavine would get in, but a little surprised he did so on his first ballet. I agree with some other posts that by the time be moved to NY, he was pretty much done. I sat behind home for a game while he was in NY and let's just say he fell short of his glory days. While I'm happy he's in, I think he should've been voted in after a year or two on the ballet to humble him a little. I can remember meeting him when he was in his prime at a card show in Richmond (along with Hank Aaron). He was such an ass and extremely cocky. Great pitcher, but too hung up on himself for me to be a big fan.

Congrats to Frank Thomas, but I'm very surprised it didn't take him 3-5 tries. Jack Morris, well, 3.90 just doesn't cut it in my book.

[packs]

Surprised to hear your story about Glavine. I used to go to Braves spring training every year and he was always a great signer and nice guy.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

What I want to know is who are the 16 idiots that didn't have Greg Maddux on their ballots? Seriously?

355 wins
3.16 ERA in the steroid era
3,371 K

1.8 BB/9 IP (second lowest of any pitcher in the modern era)
59.44 Win Probability Added, second all-time for pitchers behind only Roger Clemens

4 consecutive Cy Young Awards
5 other top 5 Cy Young finishes
18 Gold Gloves

Greg Maddux never had an overpowering fastball. He outsmarted and outplayed his opponents. He's one of the most consistently great players to ever step on the diamond, yet 16 people thought he wasn't worthy of induction on the first ballot?

Edit:

For the record, I am glad that Glavine made it (no surprise there), and Thomas, too. That was a bit of a surprise, but well deserved in my opinion. I do think that Biggio should be in.

I am also agree with the voters on Jack Morris. I don't think he is a Hall of Famer. A 3.90 ERA in an era that slightly favored pitchers just doesn't impress me.

Bill,

Well said, but unfortunately there are voters who absolutely REFUSE to vote anyone in on their first ballots (for whatever stupid reasons they have come up with). Think about it Greg, how can ANYONE not vote for Ruth, Cobb, Johnson, Mathewson, Wagner, DiMaggio, Aaron , Mays, Williams, Seaver, Carlton...etc, etc, etc. Nobody ever achieved a 100% vote and no one EVER will. Wrong...yes...but it is what it is!

Joe T.

[Mikehealer]

Originally Posted by tschock

Yeah, 11-14. Pretty bad. I can see where, for these writers, Mathewson and Johnson's mediocre .500 post season record would have given them pause to vote for them as well.

I agree, that is pretty bad.

[t206blogcom]

Originally Posted by packs

Surprised to hear your story about Glavine. I used to go to Braves spring training every year and he was always a great signer and nice guy.

Perhaps I caught him on a bad day.

[packs]

I never did get Maddux or Smoltz there. But Chipper and Glavine were usually very good about signing. Everyone has a bad day though.

[gman]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

Big Frank... had the consistency and all-fields power of Cabrera, and walked like Mantle and Williams! One of only seven players to have more than 1500 RBI and 1000 BB

As did Jeff Bagwell have the hot to all field consistency until his right shoulder became bone on bone. He, too, is one of the seven with 1500 RBI and 1000 BB. Bagwell was also one of the smartest base runners during his time in the big leagues. He also played an exceptional first base.

This was in the Houston Chronicle this morning, "Bobby Cox, the Braves manager who is entering the Hall of Fame this year alongside his two former pitchers, said on Wednesday that he’s bothered “a lot” by the accusations toward Biggio and his absence from the Hall class.

“There’s two guys in this game, opposing players, that I fell in love with,” Cox told MLB Network Radio. “(Jeff) Bagwell was one, and Biggio was the other. Just the way they conducted themselves on the field, they were leaders and great ballplayers.”"

Both were respected by their piers because of the way they played the game and the respect that had towards the game.

Bagwell should also be in the Hall.

In my opinion, the Hall of Fame needs to revamp the entire election process. They need to thin out the number of individuals allowed to vote.

[Big Six]

I think it's more about accountability...voters should have to make their votes public and stand by them...


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