NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you give an opinion of a person or company your full name needs to be in your post. Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on Ebay
Pre-WWII Cards
Post WWII Cards
Vintage Memorabilia
Babe Ruth Cards
Ty Cobb Cards
Lou Gehrig Cards
Mickey Mantle Cards
Goudey Cards
Bowman Cards
T205s on Ebay
Tobacco "T" Cards
Caramel "E" Cards
Vintage Baseball Postcards
Football Cards on Ebay
Exhibit Cards
Strip Cards
Baking Cards
Sporting News
Playball Cards on Ebay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-06-2006, 11:40 AM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,376
Default Possibly the best Black Sox book I've read

Posted By: Bob

For a close and introspective look at how Judge Landis operated, meting out illogical and unforgiving punishments on some and looking the other way on others, you need to read The Great Baseball Mystery by Victor Luhrs. It is a compelling novel of the 1919 WS and the Black Sox and is a necessary companion to 8 Men Out by Asinof but also takes a look at gambling and cheating in baseball before and after the '19 Series. I guarantee you will never look at Landis the same way again. His banning of Ray Fisher, Joe Gedeon, Benny Kauff, and many others exhibited illogic, cruelty, callousness and in the case of Fisher, stupidity. It looks at the kid-gloves treatment of Hal Chase and Heinie Zimmerman. Lastly it depicts the most damaging baseball game ever played, a seemingly ho-hum affair in the NL between a 5th and 7th place team which was alleged to have been fixed and resulted in the grand jury being called to investigate it and which subsequently spiralled in to the Sox WS performance being investigated instead.
A great summer read.


Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-06-2006, 12:58 PM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,376
Default Possibly the best Black Sox book I've read

Posted By: David Vargha

You wrote that it is a novel. Is it only partially based on what went on?

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-06-2006, 02:01 PM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,376
Default Possibly the best Black Sox book I've read

Posted By: Bob

David- I used the term "novel" loosely. It is actually a study of the events during and surrounding the Series. It is more of a detailed discussion of the people, places and events and is told from the viewpoint of Luhrs. He actually, in the middle of the book, shifts to two different perspectives, laying out the best case scenario for those who feel the 8 threw the Series and then gives compelling arguments for the other side. He begins the book by asking the reader to set aside all preconceived notions about what took place and try and study and dissect things based upon an objective view. Quite a book...
tbob

Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-06-2006, 02:36 PM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,376
Default Possibly the best Black Sox book I've read

Posted By: steve f

Sounds great. Is there anything related to the Cobb/Speaker snafus? Thanks for the report Bob.

Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-06-2006, 03:19 PM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,376
Default Possibly the best Black Sox book I've read

Posted By: Bob

Steve- Yes, the book talks about the Cobb-Speaker-Joe Wood betting situation in which Dutch Leonard brought letters from Cobb and Wood (to Leonard) describing games which were bet on and possibly thrown in the AL during the 1919 season to Ban Johnson (who hated Landis). The letters are reprinted in the book. Johnson was trying to avoid scandal and so Wood (who was now the college baseball coach at Yale) was not reprimanded or banned and Speaker and Cobb were quietly "retired" from active status by Johnson but would be allowed to gracefully bow out as active players and serve as managers. Landis because of his hatred of Johnson became involved and instead of banning them from baseball for life on the testimony of Leonard and the damning letters detailing how much money was won, who get what amount, etc., instead determined that there was not a problem. You have to remember these 2 were superstars of the game while Joe Gedeon, Paulette, Fisher, Kauff and others were run of the mill players whose lives he ruined and who never threw any games, never were paid anything for throwing a game but merely violated the Buck Weaver rule (they heard something and didn't report it although they didn't physically do anything to throw a game). Even under Landis, Cobb and Speaker were not to be allowed to return to their teams, but ended up signing with 2 other AL teams and Johnson became so frustrated he quit as AL President because of it.

Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-07-2006, 08:42 AM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,376
Default Possibly the best Black Sox book I've read

Posted By: steve f

This will go on my want list then. Thanks for the thorough report Bob.

Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-07-2006, 10:20 AM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,376
Default Possibly the best Black Sox book I've read

Posted By: whycough

Any feel for how Joe Jackson fit into the guilty/not guilty controversy from the book? Was Joe's treatment fair, and (this question is for everyone) does he belong in the hall?

Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-07-2006, 11:45 AM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,376
Default Possibly the best Black Sox book I've read

Posted By: Max Weder

The Luhrs and Asinof books have been discussed extensively in the Yahoo 1919BlackSox group http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/1919BlackSox/

There are a number of contributors who have a great deal of knowledge on the subject and have written books subsequent to Asinof and Luhrs. One of the problems in these 2 books is that neither is well-documented with source references, and subsequent researchers and writers have spent much time sorting out what is fact and what is supposition.

And for those of you who haven't read the transcript of Joe Jackson's grand jury testimony, it is available several places on the web (Say it ain't so! sic) including at http://www.baseball-almanac.com/articles/joejackson.shtml :



Q Did anybody pay you any money to help throw that series in favor of Cincinnati?

A They did.

Q How much did they pay?

A They promised me $20,000 and paid me five.

Q Who promised you the twenty thousand?

A “Chick” Gandil.

Q Who is Chick Gandil?

A He was their first baseman on the White Sox club.

....

Q Did you make any intentional errors yourself that day?

A No, sir, not during the whole series.

Q Did you bay to win?

A Yes.

Q And run the bases to win?

A Yes, sir.

Q and fielded the balls at the outfield to win?

A I did.






Max

Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-07-2006, 06:10 PM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,376
Default Possibly the best Black Sox book I've read

Posted By: Frank Evanov

Thanks for the heads up. You might also try "Red Legs and Black Sox". I just finished it and found it an excellent book on the Reds' perspective of that series. There is some speculation that the Reds' pitchers might have intentionally lost Series games 6 and 7

Frank

Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-07-2006, 06:40 PM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,376
Default Possibly the best Black Sox book I've read

Posted By: John Kal

Didn't Joe try to give the money back and tried to tell Comisky who ignored what Joe was trying to tell him?

Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08-07-2006, 07:36 PM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,376
Default Possibly the best Black Sox book I've read

Posted By: Frank Evanov

Accepting a bribe then getting cold feet does not merit Hall of Fame status.

Frank

Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-07-2006, 07:56 PM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,376
Default Possibly the best Black Sox book I've read

Posted By: John Kal

The ban was "lifetime" and I think Joe's dead. Plus, he was illiterate and a very unsophisticated man caught in a tankful of sharks. Ted Williams was strongly in Joe's corner on this, feeling he had paid his debt. Mercy is called for sometimes.

Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-07-2006, 09:33 PM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,376
Default Possibly the best Black Sox book I've read

Posted By: Mike

Hey Frank, being a Mantle fan then you know all about him AND Willie Mays being banned for their casino greeting duties. Weren't they reinstated?

Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-07-2006, 11:10 PM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,376
Default Possibly the best Black Sox book I've read

Posted By: Frank Evanov

Mickey and Willie were working for the Hotels playing golf with customers. I don't seem to recall them stuffing hundred dollar bills into their pants to throw a World Series.

Frank

Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-08-2006, 02:11 AM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,376
Default Possibly the best Black Sox book I've read

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

At least there was a World Series in 1919......but in 1904 there was no W.S......
Read all about it in "The Year They Called Off the World Series", by Benton Stark.

If you really enjoyed the intrigue in the book you just read, you will find this story
just as fascinating (if not more). It provides an enormous amount of insight to the
goings on when the National and American Leagues were in their infancy. And, the
power and vendetta that McGraw and his management (Brush and Pulliam) wielded
over the American Lge. and in particular Ban Johnson. It also, gives us insight to all
those familiar names in our T206 or E-type card collections.

And, finally the 1904 season culminates in an exciting play-off game between Boston
and the NY Highlanders in which 41-game winner Jack Chesbro.......

I will cut it off there, as I don't want to spoil the ending for you, if you chose to read
this book.....I highly recommend it.

Incidently, it took Boston 100 years exactly to overcome this "McGraw hex" of 1904.

T-Rex TED

Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 08-08-2006, 07:27 AM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,376
Default Possibly the best Black Sox book I've read

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Thanks for the info on Mr. Luhrs' book. I'll chase one down, although now I'll be competing against some fellow boardmembers for a copy.

A couple of years ago I read Rothsein by David Pietrusza. The book takes you through his life, the 1919 mess, and his murder. A good book. And it really lays out 1919... seems like he had a double fix in, evil but beautifully planned. This book isn't as difficult to find as the Luhrs book.

Frank.

Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-08-2006, 12:02 PM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,376
Default Possibly the best Black Sox book I've read

Posted By: Bob

Thanks Ted, I'll give it a try. I am now reading Autumn Glory the story of the first WS by Masur, it is a good read and I am enjoying it.

Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08-08-2006, 02:23 PM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,376
Default Possibly the best Black Sox book I've read

Posted By: Bob

I obtained 10 books today, through the BST thread (thanks Greg), Amazon. com and ABE book exchange. It's amazing how a little internet searching can find you books for a couple of bucks, like Deadball Stars of the NL, a SABR book which only cost me $3
I was also able to find cheap nearly new copies of Ed Delehanty and the Emerald Age of Baseball, The Year They Called Off the World Series, Blue Ruin (novel of the 1919 Series), Only the Ball was White, Black Diamond, and Leagues Apart (the 3 former books all being about the Negro Leagues), besides Greg's 3 books-DiMaggio by Durso, The Player: Christy Mathewson by Seib and Progress of the Seasons by Higgins.
So, I'm set for some major reading for the rest of the summer!

Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 08-08-2006, 03:55 PM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,376
Default Possibly the best Black Sox book I've read

Posted By: barrysloate

Bob- I just started reading the Delahanty book the other day. It's well written but I haven't gotten too far yet. Regarding the Black Sox I always felt the eight players had varying degrees of ambivalence as the Series progressed. While Chick Gandil may have been the most headstrong of the bunch, I feel others got cold feet along the way. In Jackson's case, I think he played as well and competitvely as he would have under the best of circumstances. But a few of them sensed the scheme was unravelling as the games went along. They still accepted money, so they shouldn't be exonerated.

Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 08-08-2006, 04:21 PM
Archive Archive is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 58,376
Default Possibly the best Black Sox book I've read

Posted By: Bob

Barry- I don't want to spoil Luhrs' book for anyone but near the end he states Landis was right about Williams, McMullin (the bag man), Risberg and Gandil, that the punishment was too excessive for Cicotte and Jackson, that Felsch and Gedeon (the 9th man out) should have been exonerated and that Weaver's ban was a travesty and his name should be cleared immediately.
tbob

Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Anyone read this book? Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 2 03-10-2009 09:54 PM
A book you HAVE to read Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 31 07-25-2002 04:05 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:38 PM.


ebay GSB