53 Topps Mantle SGC 88 on Goodwin

[CMIZ5290]

This card sold for around $34K. That's a ton of money especially being SGC graded. Beautifully centered and extremely sharp corner wise, but what about the chipping at the bottom of the front, and especially the top of the back? Just wondering what PSA would have graded the card...

[Peter_Spaeth]

I was surprised at 3k plus for an SGC 80, not that well centered 52T Jackie.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

This card sold for around $34K. That's a ton of money especially being SGC graded. Beautifully centered and extremely sharp corner wise, but what about the chipping at the bottom of the front, and especially the top of the back? Just wondering what PSA would have graded the card...

gem mint 10?

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

gem mint 10?

You never cease to amaze me. The hits just keep on coming, ice fishing must be slow...

[bcornell]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Just wondering what PSA would have graded the card...

PSA would grade it higher or lower. Or, possibly, the same.

You love this game, don't you?

[HRBAKER]

Or they might grade it "A" the first time you send it in, then 6 the second time, then 7 the third time, maybe 8 the fourth time, then "A" again when you go for a 9..................................and the carousel goes on and on

[bobbyw8469]

I thought a lot of Goodwin's cards went high. Usually I find a couple that slipped though the cracks every auction. There was nothing of the sort in Goodwin's last auction. Even the minimum bids on some of the cards were a lot higher than you can get them for with a BIN on Ebay. Maybe teaming up with Beckett helped him?

[irv]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

This card sold for around $34K. That's a ton of money especially being SGC graded. Beautifully centered and extremely sharp corner wise, but what about the chipping at the bottom of the front, and especially the top of the back? Just wondering what PSA would have graded the card...

I guess it's a common believe or theory that SGC doesn't grade the same as PSA?

I'm a newbie to all this, and want to get some cards graded (eventually) and was wondering what company to use?

I see PSA graded cards mostly but SGC is right there as well. Is there that big of a difference between the 2 companies?

Also, like what was written below. I see cards graded low from both companies that make me wonder then I see cards graded high that also make me wonder? I know, there is more to it than meets the eye, especially viewing on the internet, but sometimes you see obvious flaws and the cards are rated/graded high and sometimes you don't but they are rated/graded low?

I guess a lot depends on the particular person grading from either company?

[cammb]

Originally Posted by bcornell

PSA would grade it higher or lower. Or, possibly, the same.

You love this game, don't you?

Amen, brother.

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by irv

I guess it's a common believe or theory that SGC doesn't grade the same as PSA?

I'm a newbie to all this, and want to get some cards graded (eventually) and was wondering what company to use?

I see PSA graded cards mostly but SGC is right there as well. Is there that big of a difference between the 2 companies?

Also, like what was written below. I see cards graded low from both companies that make me wonder then I see cards graded high that also make me wonder? I know, there is more to it than meets the eye, especially viewing on the internet, but sometimes you see obvious flaws and the cards are rated/graded high and sometimes you don't but they are rated/graded low?

I guess a lot depends on the particular person grading from either company?

The difference is one is accurately grades and the other is a lottery draw. Bad part is more people like the lottery draw than accuracy.

[bcornell]

Which grading company should you use? If you're this kmize person, here's your checklist

1) you have T206's
2) they're "high-grade" cards
3) you sell those cards on eBay
4) you need to post on this forum over and over again

If you meet these criteria, then you should use PSA. If you insist on submitting to SGC, then you should read this informative thread that he created: SGC T206s....It needs to be brought up, it's scary, very scary if you are a collector.

For "collector", read "card flipper". For "scary", read: "not scary". After that, you're on your own.

Bill

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by T205 GB

The difference is one is accurately grades and the other is a lottery draw. Bad part is more people like the lottery draw than accuracy.

i think theres subjective problems with both of those companies but it cant be argued that PSA likely sell for more dollar for dollar versus SGC if same grade assigned for exactly the same card...

if buying an sgc card now you are getting it for less so its not like it matters but if the card goes up in value, you may not get the same increase in value that a PSA holder would garner..

[bcornell]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

it cant be argued that PSA likely sell for more dollar for dollar versus SGC if same grade assigned for exactly the same card...

It can't? Actually, it can, but you are another recent forum entity who generalizes about PSA using anecdotal stories.

If you sell cards on eBay, your cards will sell for whatever they sell for and we won't know if they actually achieved a certain price or if the buyer welched or if the seller shill bid on them, etc., etc. In other words, stop using eBay to make your point. Please.

How about you buy the cards you want and stop telling us why we should "use" PSA?

Bill

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by bcornell

It can't? Actually, it can, but you are another recent forum entity who generalizes about PSA using anecdotal stories.

If you sell cards on eBay, your cards will sell for whatever they sell for and we won't know if they actually achieved a certain price or if the buyer welched or if the seller shill bid on them, etc., etc. In other words, stop using eBay to make your point. Please.

How about you buy the cards you want and stop telling us why we should "use" PSA?

Bill

You don't have to use PSA can use what you want...but you lose credibility if you believe SGCs sell for the same as PSA ....I will also say that raw cards also sell for less than cards that are graded...don't have any empirical evidence but I think you would lose credibility if you argued on that issue as well..

I do point out on major cards at auctions (including ebay and other places) from time to time..to show what cards sold for in SGC and PSA holders...not sure how that's bad for the hobby to let people know..... I do buy SGC cards sometimes depending on the circumstances ..

[bcornell]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

you lose credibility if you believe SGCs sell for the same as PSA..

I lose credibility with you? I'm going to be okay with that. I hope you're still in the hobby in a few weeks.

Bill

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by bcornell

I lose credibility with you? I'm going to be okay with that. I hope you're still in the hobby in a few weeks.

Bill

was talking everyone that reads your posts you will lose credibility with...im nothing compared to you im sure, I just go out on a big limb when stating that PSA is preferable in the resell market than SGC....

why not make it a poll question.. as to if its the same exact card but one is in a SGC holder versus PSA...would the buyer pay more for the PSA , less or equal...I know I making an outrageous claim when I think more people will pick PSA but lets see..

by the way are you going to argue against my belief that the same exact card raw sells for less than if was a graded card with sgc or psa....or do I need evidence for that too.... if I don't need evidence for that then it proves we don't need evidence for things that are obvious...ie. things you lose credibility with if argue the opposite

[glynparson]

In almost all cases PSA will outsell SGC. If the 1953 Mantle crosses to PSA it will sell for more. I have a friend who was looking for one he had a client at 50K on a PSA 8. Pretending SGC generally does not sell for less than PSA in most cases is just that pretending. The vast majority of full time graded card dealers use PSA and there is a reason for it. They sell for more money. SGC is generally a very fine company but this board sometimes advances some ideas about them that just are not true. I have heard some claim every SGC card would grade higher with PSA that is false I have heard some claim they are tougher on T206 I also feel that is false. Is SGC more consistent of course when you have had two vintage graders for almost 15 years that are the same, you are going to be more consistent. They also have less mistakes of course they do they've graded less than 10% of what PSA has graded. Again SGC is a fine alternative to PSA if you prefer their customer service or holders. Also their are some outlier issues where they may outsell PSA Old Judges come to mind but across the board issue for issue it is generally not close. So if you are a collector go with either one but if you want to maximize sales Id say 9 out of 10 times PSA will get you more money. Just because one prefers elements of SGC does not make their cards sell for more. PS I have bought cards from Kevin and found him to be knowledgable, honest, and very fair. For the record I would not have paid him what I did for the cards i purchased had they been in SGC and not PSA holders.
Pss From the looks of the scan I have no problem with the 8 grade as I think the chipping may be from the factory cut, at least it looks that way in the scans to me.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by glynparson

In almost all cases PSA will outsell SGC. If the 1953 Mantle crosses to PSA it will sell for more. I have a friend who was looking for one he had a client at 50K on a PSA 8. Pretending SGC generally does not sell for less than PSA in most cases is just that pretending. The vast majority of full time graded card dealers use PSA and there is a reason for it. They sell for more money. SGC is generally a very fine company but this board sometimes advances some ideas about them that just are not true. I have heard some claim every SGC card would grade higher with PSA that is false I have heard some claim they are tougher on T206 I also feel that is false. Is SGC more consistent of course when you have had two vintage graders for almost 15 years that are the same, you are going to be more consistent. They also have less mistakes of course they do they've graded less than 10% of what PSA has graded. Again SGC is a fine alternative to PSA if you prefer their customer service or holders. Also their are some outlier issues where they may outsell PSA Old Judges come to mind but across the board issue for issue it is generally not close. So if you are a collector go with either one but if you want to maximize sales Id say 9 out of 10 times PSA will get you more money. Just because one prefers elements of SGC does not make their cards sell for more. PS I have bought cards from Kevin and found him to be knowledgable, honest, and very fair. For the record I would not have paid him what I did for the cards i purchased had they been in SGC and not PSA holders.
Pss From the looks of the scan I have no problem with the 8 grade as I think the chipping may be from the factory cut, at least it looks that way in the scans to me.

Right they are pretending....as for shilling on ebay, at least we can see bid history..on the big AHs we don't know squat....it not like there isn't shilling at other AH..plus ebay you can see if its just 2 bidders bringing up the price at a certain price point or if its 5 or so bidders..i know I would be interested in buying a card where there were 7 unique bidders on the last ebay auction that bid over that hypothetical amount..yes all the 7 accounts could be faked I guess but at another AH you have no idea how many unique bidders would of been over that hypothethical price point and yeah that could be shilled as well....nothing is perfect , you use information that you get and make a decision......I just tired of the ebay talk of shilling when at least you have a chance to partially assess it versus zero assessment with other auction houses..

also getting tired of people trying to hear people 'pretend' as you say that SGC cards sell for PSA prices on average............ I never seen a PSA listed card on ebay on the listing also put 'like an SGC'....but I see tons of SGC cards talk about being able to cross the card and put PSA?...

[Peter_Spaeth]

One thing missing from Glyn's and Jake's analysis is that the same card may well grade higher by SGC in this day and age where PSA is being extremely (and many would say overly) harsh particularly on postwar. For example I have some recent PSA 6s that for all the world look near mint to me and comparable to older (and not THAT much older) PSA 7s. So the apples to apples comparison may be (for example) PSA 6 to SGC 7 at least in some cases.

[oldphil]

Recently, for reasons which I will not go into, I carefully broke out 5 T205s from their PSA holders. Three of the 5 were HOFers, one was a common, and one was a scarce common. Four of the 5 were graded PSA 7, and one was a PSA 8. None of the 5 cards came back with their prior grades. The PSA 8 came back with "evidence of trimming", as did one of the PSA 7's. Two of the PSA 7's came back as PSA 6, and one of the PSA 7's came back as a PSA 5.5. I really don't care if a TPG is viewed as tough or easy, but that they are consistent. If you don't have consistency, what do you have? I feel that in this instance the TPG failed miserably. I am not posting this to evoke any sympathy because that does no one any good. Happy New Year everyone!

[HRBAKER]

Send 'em back, you never know what you'll get.
Welcome to the game.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldphil

Recently, for reasons which I will not go into, I carefully broke out 5 T205s from their PSA holders. Three of the 5 were HOFers, one was a common, and one was a scarce common. Four of the 5 were graded PSA 7, and one was a PSA 8. None of the 5 cards came back with their prior grades. The PSA 8 came back with "evidence of trimming", as did one of the PSA 7's. Two of the PSA 7's came back as PSA 6, and one of the PSA 7's came back as a PSA 5.5. I really don't care if a TPG is viewed as tough or easy, but that they are consistent. If you don't have consistency, what do you have? I feel that in this instance the TPG failed miserably. I am not posting this to evoke any sympathy because that does no one any good. Happy New Year everyone!

It is general consensus they are much tougher these days. Not surprised at all on the 8 just as a general matter, as I am pretty skeptical of any prewar card in that high a holder, much less a T205. Plus, even if it is legit, in the current environment they seem afraid to grade stuff, or so I have heard from a few people.

[HRBAKER]

So, even if according to their standards it was legit "8" and the experts could detect no funny business to disqualify it - they are "afraid" to give it the grade?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

So, even if according to their standards it was legit "8" and the experts could detect no funny business to disqualify it - they are "afraid" to give it the grade?

I have heard that from several people, yes.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I have heard that from several people, yes.

So that's the level of confidence they have in their ability to detect alterations?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

So that's the level of confidence they have in their ability to detect alterations?

I can only say what I have heard. I am not vouching for it as fact or purporting to analyze it.

Then again, purely as a speculative exercise, given what marquee cards in high grades seem to be selling for, the downside risk of having to make good on a guaranty is astronomical compared to the grading fee. So it would be understandable not to take a lot of chances if there was any uncertainty.

[HRBAKER]

Understood, that's very interesting stuff.

Kind of like having an automobile that is so expensive that no one will work on it?

What are we paying for then if we submit a legitimate high grade marquee card as a speculative exercise?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

One thing missing from Glyn's and Jake's analysis is that the same card may well grade higher by SGC in this day and age where PSA is being extremely (and many would say overly) harsh particularly on postwar. For example I have some recent PSA 6s that for all the world look near mint to me and comparable to older (and not THAT much older) PSA 7s. So the apples to apples comparison may be (for example) PSA 6 to SGC 7 at least in some cases.

my example involves the exact same card.. in a SGC older or new holder or PSA old or newer holder..doesn't really matter..just saying more often than not the PSA will sell for more...

I cant imagine the number of returns if all cards were sold raw....the disparity of 'mint' and near mint from sellers of raw cards would be just as much if not more than the different grades you get on resubmitting to TPG....sellers are a bit more biased on what they sell in terms of the condition they say its in.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

my example involves the exact same card.. in a SGC older or new holder or PSA old or newer holder..doesn't really matter..just saying more often than not the PSA will sell for more...

I cant imagine the number of returns if all cards were sold raw....the disparity of 'mint' and near mint from sellers of raw cards would be just as much if not more than the different grades you get on resubmitting to TPG....sellers are a bit more biased on what they sell in terms of the condition they say its in.

agree regarding your 2nd statement.

we have discussed/debated the whole psa/sgc thing ad nauseum...and then some! yes...psa cards usually sell for more than their sgc counterparts...why? registry collectors...period.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

my example involves the exact same card.. in a SGC older or new holder or PSA old or newer holder..doesn't really matter..just saying more often than not the PSA will sell for more...

I cant imagine the number of returns if all cards were sold raw....the disparity of 'mint' and near mint from sellers of raw cards would be just as much if not more than the different grades you get on resubmitting to TPG....sellers are a bit more biased on what they sell in terms of the condition they say its in.

You're missing the point. If today I can submit a card to SGC and get a 7 where PSA would grade 6, the fact that PSA will do better in an equal holder doesn't matter so much does it? The apples to apples, or at least one of them, is how will I make out if I send the same card to each grading service. MY example not yours involves the "exact same card."

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You're missing the point. If today I can submit a card to SGC and get a 7 where PSA would grade 6, the fact that PSA will do better in an equal holder doesn't matter so much does it? The apples to apples, or at least one of them, is how will I make out if I send the same card to each grading service. MY example not yours involves the "exact same card."

understood..i am talking after graded and its the same number for each......but your example is the reason for the 'crossover' game...many times I bid on a sgc card only for what a psa card sell for a digit or 2 below for exactly that reason...

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by bcornell

Which grading company should you use? If you're this kmize person, here's your checklist

1) you have T206's
2) they're "high-grade" cards
3) you sell those cards on eBay
4) you need to post on this forum over and over again

If you meet these criteria, then you should use PSA. If you insist on submitting to SGC, then you should read this informative thread that he created: SGC T206s....It needs to be brought up, it's scary, very scary if you are a collector.

For "collector", read "card flipper". For "scary", read: "not scary". After that, you're on your own.

Bill

First of all....You are completely numb obviously. Find one, mind you one, Ebay listing of a card I sold. I'm primarily a collector, but do sell cards (and a lot of them) on this forum. Why don't you get your s*** together before you make absolutely stupid accusations. Secondly, how would you like to buy a lot of SGC T206s for a fraction of the price compared to comparable PSA grades?

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by bcornell

It can't? Actually, it can, but you are another recent forum entity who generalizes about PSA using anecdotal stories.

If you sell cards on eBay, your cards will sell for whatever they sell for and we won't know if they actually achieved a certain price or if the buyer welched or if the seller shill bid on them, etc., etc. In other words, stop using eBay to make your point. Please.

How about you buy the cards you want and stop telling us why we should "use" PSA?

Bill

never mnd...

[irv]

Interesting reading, including that 11 pg link above.

Still not sure however, mainly due the current value of the CDN dollar and the fact I have to ship them, who I will use?

$700.00, likely, for PSA to grade my Mantle doesn't sound too enticing, especially since (I believe?) I have a few more that might cost me that much as well?

Disappointed there is no place in Canada (SGC or PSA) that grades cards but I understand that as likely there isn't a whole of money to be made up here compared to the U.S.?

Thanks for the good read guys.

[Peter_Spaeth]

http://www.ksagrading.ca/

[irv]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

http://www.ksagrading.ca/

You got me again!

Thanks Peter!