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  #1  
Old 01-31-2015, 01:23 AM
VAYankee VAYankee is offline
Mi.ke Fost.er
 
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Default Ruth and Gehrig Balls - Authentic?

I was presented the following baseballs for less than $7500/each. I was told they came with Halper COAs. I have received a copy of one, but not the other. Would love to hear opinions/comments about whether folks on this forum believe these signatures to be legit.

Of note, I've done some research and I'm not sure the COA provided is authentic, which then of course brings into question the authenticity of the balls. One, I haven't seen/found other Halper COA/LOA like this one. Two, of the Halper COAs that I've seen, he has signed all of them, but this one is not. Finally, the letterhead indicates it's from Halper and Bros., Inc. The company that I believe Halper worked for was Halper and Sons (see http://njjewishnews.com/njjn.com/121...milyMarks.html)

I would not pretend to be an expert on Halper memorabilia, so I don't know if I'm just paranoid or being objective with regard authenticity of the material presented.

Thank you in advance for your feedback/assistance.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Ruth Halper ball.jpg (50.9 KB, 692 views)
File Type: jpg Halper Ruth COA.jpg (70.8 KB, 687 views)
File Type: jpg Gehrig Halper ball.jpg (42.9 KB, 685 views)
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  #2  
Old 01-31-2015, 01:50 AM
Sophiedog Sophiedog is offline
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Are you serious?
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  #3  
Old 01-31-2015, 01:59 AM
Sophiedog Sophiedog is offline
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http://www.myccsa.com/Lot/268/lou-ge...-baseball.aspx
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  #4  
Old 01-31-2015, 02:02 AM
VAYankee VAYankee is offline
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Yes, I'm serious. Had no idea they were posted on that auction.
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  #5  
Old 01-31-2015, 06:09 AM
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Run away...
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  #6  
Old 01-31-2015, 06:59 AM
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Garbage.
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  #7  
Old 01-31-2015, 07:31 AM
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Fakes. And anything posted on or sold from Coaches Corner Auctions stay away from.
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  #8  
Old 01-31-2015, 07:43 AM
thetruthisoutthere thetruthisoutthere is offline
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Freaking laughable.

Someone (we know who) buys Halper letters and couples them with crap.

Scott Malack and Lee Trythall (Roach's Corner) have been selling forgeries for decades.

Roach's Corner has been selling dozens of Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, etc. forgeries every single month for decades.

Last edited by thetruthisoutthere; 01-31-2015 at 09:50 AM.
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  #9  
Old 01-31-2015, 10:41 AM
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To the OP - curiosity compels me to ask if you would reveal the identity of the seller of those two baseballs.
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  #10  
Old 01-31-2015, 10:52 AM
thetruthisoutthere thetruthisoutthere is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardSimon View Post
To the OP - curiosity compels me to ask if you would reveal the identity of the seller of those two baseballs.
I want the OP to direct the seller of that crap to this thread.
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  #11  
Old 01-31-2015, 10:56 AM
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I think this is a test.

Will it fly?
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  #12  
Old 01-31-2015, 11:39 AM
VAYankee VAYankee is offline
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Thank you for the replies, much appreciated. Just curious, so I don't always have to post when I have something presented to me, what here jumps out to you that this is fake? Has anyone here seen this ball before? Seen a similar COA/LOA from Halper? Is the COA/LOA a copy of a legit one or a complete fabrication? Parker mentioned the auction house itself is ripe with forgeries, however had Sophieb not referenced the auction listing for the Gehrig ball (Ruth ball was not listed), would it have been as clear cut? Not questioning the replies, just want to understand further what to look out for....thanks!
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  #13  
Old 01-31-2015, 11:51 AM
jgmp123 jgmp123 is offline
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I'm sorry but I believe your story is a load of crap. It's a little too ironic that you were "offered" two autographs that appear on a regular basis on the Coaches Corner website and chose to come here (seeing you just joined this month) to ask an opinion.

They are fake and if you were trying to get someone to give you an approval, then purchase the ball there and try to resale here or somewhere else, then you shouldn't bother sticking around.
Sorry, but your story and the irony is just too fishy for me.
Best of luck on eBay.
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  #14  
Old 01-31-2015, 11:51 AM
VAYankee VAYankee is offline
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Seller is Joe DiMaggio Estate, www.memorabiliacenter.com, although they have stated the following, "...Another great signed bb at a great price being sold thru us on consignment, that once was in the Barry Halper collection." The consignment is on behalf of a former customer. Both balls are from the same person. I don't know who is behind the curtain per se, although perhaps others on this forum might know.
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  #15  
Old 01-31-2015, 11:55 AM
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I don't see those balls listed on that site, am I missing something?
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  #16  
Old 01-31-2015, 11:56 AM
jgmp123 jgmp123 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VAYankee View Post
Seller is Joe DiMaggio Estate, www.memorabiliacenter.com, although they have stated the following, "...Another great signed bb at a great price being sold thru us on consignment, that once was in the Barry Halper collection." The consignment is on behalf of a former customer. Both balls are from the same person. I don't know who is behind the curtain per se, although perhaps others on this forum might know.
According to your site reference, R&R Enterprises is the seller of these balls (that aren't even on the site)....
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  #17  
Old 01-31-2015, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VAYankee View Post
Thank you for the replies, much appreciated. Just curious, so I don't always have to post when I have something presented to me, what here jumps out to you that this is fake? Has anyone here seen this ball before? Seen a similar COA/LOA from Halper? Is the COA/LOA a copy of a legit one or a complete fabrication? Parker mentioned the auction house itself is ripe with forgeries, however had Sophieb not referenced the auction listing for the Gehrig ball (Ruth ball was not listed), would it have been as clear cut? Not questioning the replies, just want to understand further what to look out for....thanks!
In my opinion those Halper certs are a complete fabrication.
I have never seen them before.
And even if they were copies of legit certs,,, well we know about Halper items, don't we?
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  #18  
Old 01-31-2015, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgmp123 View Post
According to your site reference, R&R Enterprises is the seller of these balls (that aren't even on the site)....
In a thousand years, RR would never be selling those baseballs.
Do not confuse R&R from NC with RR from NH.
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Last edited by RichardSimon; 01-31-2015 at 12:00 PM.
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  #19  
Old 01-31-2015, 12:00 PM
VAYankee VAYankee is offline
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James, sorry you feel that way. The Ruth ball was not posted on Coaches Corner website, and I didn't know the Gehrig one was until Sophieb pointed that out. I realize you don't know me, but I don't buy/sell my collectibles. I buy and hold them. I joined this site for two reasons: one, because I had suspicions about the cert provided, which you'll note in my original post (I wasn't sure whether the autos were legit or not); two, because in doing my research, this site was pointed out as a resource.
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  #20  
Old 01-31-2015, 12:04 PM
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It's pretty amazing that they used the same pen and has the same amount of fading being that they're signed 9 years apart.
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  #21  
Old 01-31-2015, 12:04 PM
jgmp123 jgmp123 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardSimon View Post
In a thousand years, RR would never be selling those baseballs.
Do not confuse R&R from NC with RR from NH.
Hey Richard,
I know the confusion and the maliciousness behind them registering that way, but that's why I included the name, address (North Carolina), and the email address that appears on that site.
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  #22  
Old 01-31-2015, 12:05 PM
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Just take a look at the Mantle and Dimaggio 4x6 photos on that website.
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  #23  
Old 01-31-2015, 12:06 PM
VAYankee VAYankee is offline
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They were offered to me (and others) via email. Yes, they are not in the site. I never said they were on the site. I honestly don't know why you're attacking me in this. I'm merely trying to figure out whether these balls are legit or not, clearly they are not, and in the process better educate myself on what I should look out for when buying something like a Ruth or Gehrig ball.
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  #24  
Old 01-31-2015, 12:09 PM
VAYankee VAYankee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardSimon View Post
Just take a look at the Mantle and Dimaggio 4x6 photos on that website.
Perhaps I'm being really thick, meaning those are legit or those are fake? Also what's the diff between R&R in NC and R&R in NH? Don't know the one in NH at all.
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Old 01-31-2015, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VAYankee View Post
Perhaps I'm being really thick, meaning those are legit or those are fake? Also what's the diff between R&R in NC and R&R in NH? Don't know the one in NH at all.
It is not R&R in NH. It is RR, a totally different entity, and well established long before R&R in NC.
And in my opinion the photos I referenced originated in Florida where, in my opinion, a major forgery mill is operating.
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Last edited by RichardSimon; 01-31-2015 at 12:17 PM.
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  #26  
Old 01-31-2015, 01:14 PM
VAYankee VAYankee is offline
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So am I to believe the stuff being sold through Joe DiMaggio Estate, the R&R entity in NC, is fake? I was offered another Gehrig ball by them in December. I thought it looked iffy, but they said it had a PSA/DNA cert. it didn't have the full cert, but one of the quickie opinions. Went back-and-forth on the ball, they finally agreed to send it in to PSA for a full cert (after telling me they were going to back out of the deal and put it up for auction). This week I learned they turned around and sold it to someone else who was willing to buy it as-is, i.e. no full cert. I'm not home now but can post picture of that ball later.
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Old 01-31-2015, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VAYankee View Post
So am I to believe the stuff being sold through Joe DiMaggio Estate, the R&R entity in NC, is fake? I was offered another Gehrig ball by them in December. I thought it looked iffy, but they said it had a PSA/DNA cert. it didn't have the full cert, but one of the quickie opinions. Went back-and-forth on the ball, they finally agreed to send it in to PSA for a full cert (after telling me they were going to back out of the deal and put it up for auction). This week I learned they turned around and sold it to someone else who was willing to buy it as-is, i.e. no full cert. I'm not home now but can post picture of that ball later.
I think you are going to end up buying a forgery. Hopefully not, but they seem to be swaying you more than the people here.
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Old 01-31-2015, 01:45 PM
btcarfagno btcarfagno is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VAYankee View Post
So am I to believe the stuff being sold through Joe DiMaggio Estate, the R&R entity in NC, is fake? I was offered another Gehrig ball by them in December. I thought it looked iffy, but they said it had a PSA/DNA cert. it didn't have the full cert, but one of the quickie opinions. Went back-and-forth on the ball, they finally agreed to send it in to PSA for a full cert (after telling me they were going to back out of the deal and put it up for auction). This week I learned they turned around and sold it to someone else who was willing to buy it as-is, i.e. no full cert. I'm not home now but can post picture of that ball later.
My advice would be to look through the myriad of Ruth or Gehrig autograph threads on this site. There has been a lot of discussion about what looks good and what does not and why. You will learn a lot more in less time by doing this.

Also, I would forget about buying anything like this with that kind of money until you have the ability to identify good from bad on your own, without the help of a PSA/DNA or JSA. Obviously it is your money so you can do as you wish. I just can't imagine buying something for that much with only someone else's opinion being the difference between a wonderful piece/nice investment and a $5 baseball with writing on it.

Tom C
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  #29  
Old 01-31-2015, 04:19 PM
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Joe Dimaggio estate bought the rights from Morris Engelberg the attorney to sell of all of the Joe d PIctures, baseball and other crap. He lost a fortune trying to do it.Every bank in NC. had civil suites against him.
He then had the Idea since he had the name Joe D Estate he would put up anything for sale. He move his operation to Minnesota where B&J sold thousands of pieces with Joe d stickers including fake Ruths Paige's and anyone else he could get his hands on.
The garbage you put up there is something a blind man would know is bad.
I really think most of the people have been very patient with you. I guess you can not understand the word no.
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Old 01-31-2015, 04:31 PM
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This ones on the site....only $2700 with Morales COA.
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  #31  
Old 01-31-2015, 04:51 PM
thetruthisoutthere thetruthisoutthere is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shelly View Post
Joe Dimaggio estate bought the rights from Morris Engelberg the attorney to sell of all of the Joe d PIctures, baseball and other crap. He lost a fortune trying to do it.Every bank in NC. had civil suites against him.
He then had the Idea since he had the name Joe D Estate he would put up anything for sale. He move his operation to Minnesota where B&J sold thousands of pieces with Joe d stickers including fake Ruths Paige's and anyone else he could get his hands on.
The garbage you put up there is something a blind man would know is bad.
I really think most of the people have been very patient with you. I guess you can not understand the word no.
They simply wait for suckers to buy their garbage.

The majority of people (not true autograph collectors) who buy this crap, usually buy on impulse and have no idea what they are looking at.

It's disgusting.
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Old 01-31-2015, 06:31 PM
VAYankee VAYankee is offline
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Thanks for all the feedback. I truly appreciate it. I actually am not looking for a reason to buy something from them. On the contrary, I have had my suspicions about them and their merchandise and have frankly frustrated them with my questions. It appears I was correct, although I couldn't put my finger on it. They just sent another email with another ball from the same consignor, will post it up.
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  #33  
Old 01-31-2015, 06:42 PM
VAYankee VAYankee is offline
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Default New ball just offered-Ruth and Cobb

Asking $4k for this ball. While I might not be able to pick out a fake as well as others on this forum, $4k for a ball signed by Ruth and Cobb like this is way below market. I need to find the older threads that point out what to look for when evaluating the signatures of Ruth, Gehrig, Cobb, etc.

"This vintage, red-laced baseball is unmarked and unlabeled, and comes cubed in G+ condition. It is hand-signed on the sweet spot by both original 1936 HOF Inductees, including Babe Ruth in black and Ty Cobb in green, and will show off superbly upon display. Comes with a full LOA from longtime collector and memorabilia specialist Barry Halper for authenticity purposes, and books well into the thousands!"
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  #34  
Old 01-31-2015, 06:51 PM
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Here you go:

http://myccsa.com/Lot.aspx?LotID=444936

Last edited by parker1b2; 01-31-2015 at 06:52 PM.
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  #35  
Old 01-31-2015, 06:59 PM
VAYankee VAYankee is offline
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...looks like the "consignor" is cleaning house. Here is a list of auto balls and associated pricing I just received. What is this forgery ring in Florida someone mentioned? Why is nothing done to try and stop them? If anyone here is interested in these balls, let me know. :-)

"Grover Alexander $3995
Edward Barrow $999.99
Jim Bottomley $1495
Roy Campanella $1695
Roberto Clemente $3495
Mickey Cochrane $1495
Eddie Collins $2495
Dizzy Dean $1995
Joe DiMaggio $695
Huge Duffy $1495
Jimmie Foxx $2995
Frankie Frisch $1495
Lou Gehrig $4995
Josh Gibson $3495
Hank Greenberg $1695
Lefty Grove $1995
Harry Heilmann $1995
Herbert Hoover $2995
Rogers Hornsby $2995
Walter Johnson $3995
John Kennedy $4995
Bill Klem $999.99
Nap Lajoie $2995
Kennesaw Landis $1995
Connie Mack $1995
Mickey Mantle $695
Roger Maris $999.99 SOLD
Ducky Medwick $1695
Mel Ott $2995
Satchel Paige $1495
Ronald Reagan $1999.99
Jackie Robinson $2995
Franklin Roosevelt $4995
Babe Ruth $4995 SOLD
George Sisler $2495
Tris Speaker $2995
Harry Truman $2995
Arky Vaughn $995
Honus Wagner $3995
George Weiss $995
Ted Williams $695
Hack Wilson $1995
Cy Young $3995"
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  #36  
Old 01-31-2015, 07:10 PM
thetruthisoutthere thetruthisoutthere is offline
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[quote=VAYankee;1374318] Why is nothing done to try and stop them? )

A few of of us have been trying for years, but one cares except us in the autograph hobby.
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  #37  
Old 01-31-2015, 07:13 PM
thetruthisoutthere thetruthisoutthere is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VAYankee View Post
...looks like the "consignor" is cleaning house. Here is a list of auto balls and associated pricing I just received. What is this forgery ring in Florida someone mentioned? Why is nothing done to try and stop them? If anyone here is interested in these balls, let me know. :-)

"Grover Alexander $3995
Edward Barrow $999.99
Jim Bottomley $1495
Roy Campanella $1695
Roberto Clemente $3495
Mickey Cochrane $1495
Eddie Collins $2495
Dizzy Dean $1995
Joe DiMaggio $695
Huge Duffy $1495
Jimmie Foxx $2995
Frankie Frisch $1495
Lou Gehrig $4995
Josh Gibson $3495
Hank Greenberg $1695
Lefty Grove $1995
Harry Heilmann $1995
Herbert Hoover $2995
Rogers Hornsby $2995
Walter Johnson $3995
John Kennedy $4995
Bill Klem $999.99
Nap Lajoie $2995
Kennesaw Landis $1995
Connie Mack $1995
Mickey Mantle $695
Roger Maris $999.99 SOLD
Ducky Medwick $1695
Mel Ott $2995
Satchel Paige $1495
Ronald Reagan $1999.99
Jackie Robinson $2995
Franklin Roosevelt $4995
Babe Ruth $4995 SOLD
George Sisler $2495
Tris Speaker $2995
Harry Truman $2995
Arky Vaughn $995
Honus Wagner $3995
George Weiss $995
Ted Williams $695
Hack Wilson $1995
Cy Young $3995"

I bet this is the "Walter Johnson" forgery they are attempting to sell.

They sell Walter Johnson forgeries every month.


WalterJohnson-CC.jpg
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  #38  
Old 01-31-2015, 07:17 PM
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Runscott Runscott is offline
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I like how they put 'SOLD' next to a few of them
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Old 01-31-2015, 07:54 PM
VAYankee VAYankee is offline
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They did claim the Ruth ball that they offered to me (it's the one pictured in the beginning of this post) was purchased by someone who wasn't concerned with the cert. This was the feedback I got this morning:

"We were able to reach an agreement with the buyer....so this Ruth bb is sold.

I remember you told me you once got burned before on a purchase. Now I believe, unless these guys like Ruth and Gehrig either tell you they actually signed the bb, or left behind an affidavit before they died that they did so, you are not going to be comfortable. It certainly is your prerogative, but in the business we refer to it as “paralysis by analysis.”

This really burned me, because I had the nerve to seek clarity on the cert and ball. I have to admit that I feel like an ass now. I was led to these guys by my best friend. I bought a Joe D ball from them, which I'm now guessing is fake. Plus, they have been selling these limited quantity, laser engraved balls signed by contemporary players, e.g. Kershaw, Trout, McCutchen, etc., who have recently won an award. I did buy a Kershaw ball too, although fortunately that's it. I'm guessing the forgery ring in Florida is behind those too. I should have been more careful, because when I saw that they were offering a Derek Jeter ball too that seemed odd - I didn't think Steiner would allow him to sign other stuff. They claimed he was allowed to sign a limited quantity of items outside his contract. After I bought the Kershaw ball, the story changed to that Jeter's contract with Steiner ended when he retired. Sigh....
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Old 01-31-2015, 08:01 PM
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Perhaps some day one of their signers will either get immunity to turn them in, or, being dispicable characters, simply get pissed at their boss over something trivial, and turn them in.

Maybe we could all pitch in and put a bounty on the ringleader? I bet $5000 would get an employee's attention.
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Old 01-31-2015, 08:14 PM
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Just to inform the OP, all of us here know this, the Florida forgery ring is not connected to CC as far as I can tell.
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Old 01-31-2015, 08:16 PM
ruth-gehrig ruth-gehrig is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Runscott View Post
Perhaps some day one of their signers will either get immunity to turn them in, or, being dispicable characters, simply get pissed at their boss over something trivial, and turn them in.

Maybe we could all pitch in and put a bounty on the ringleader? I bet $5000 would get an employee's attention.
I would assume that this "signer" (or signers) is making a decent living doing what he does. If he outs his employer he's not only brought attention to himself but would then be out of a job. Then he would have to go into the real world and find a job

Last edited by ruth-gehrig; 01-31-2015 at 08:17 PM.
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  #43  
Old 01-31-2015, 09:16 PM
VAYankee VAYankee is offline
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Quote:
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Just to inform the OP, all of us here know this, the Florida forgery ring is not connected to CC as far as I can tell.
Wait, you know the people in this ring and/or know who they're connected to? I'm not sure what to say to that. The ring is not connected to CC...Who is CC?
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Old 01-31-2015, 09:18 PM
thetruthisoutthere thetruthisoutthere is offline
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Wait, you know the people in this ring and/or know who they're connected to? I'm not sure what to say to that. The ring is not connected to CC...Who is CC?
This is CC (Coach's Corner). Also known as Roach's Corner Auctions.

http://www.myccsa.com/Browse.aspx
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Old 01-31-2015, 09:52 PM
VAYankee VAYankee is offline
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Ok, not connected directly, but it seemed as though from the comments about the Ruth, Gehrig, Johnson balls that they are connected at least indirectly. Correct?
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  #46  
Old 01-31-2015, 10:08 PM
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The Florida ring is not connected to CC.
They sell totally different items from each other and do business in a very different way.
Though I believe they both do sell to resellers who pollute the entire hobby with crap in many different venues.
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Last edited by RichardSimon; 01-31-2015 at 10:09 PM.
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  #47  
Old 01-31-2015, 10:50 PM
Deertick Deertick is offline
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Ok, not connected directly, but it seemed as though from the comments about the Ruth, Gehrig, Johnson balls that they are connected at least indirectly. Correct?
The Florida crap is mostly along the lines of 500HR, 300 win type collages and players. Mantle, DiMaggio, Ford, Williams, Koufax.
Coaches Corner tagline is "We sign to order, customization FREE!"
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  #48  
Old 01-31-2015, 11:19 PM
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I don't mean to be rude, but to the OP: you appear to be in over your head by trying to buy autos at this level. To consider buying this caliber of auto at these prices is foolish.

Ken
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  #49  
Old 02-01-2015, 07:51 AM
thetruthisoutthere thetruthisoutthere is offline
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I don't mean to be rude, but to the OP: you appear to be in over your head by trying to buy autos at this level. To consider buying this caliber of auto at these prices is foolish.

Ken
My thoughts exactly, Ken.

Is this what impulse buying is?

Someone who knows nothing about autographs all-of-a-sudden leaps to purchase high-end autographs of Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, etc?

Is that why sellers of forgeries are so successful?

Damn right it is!!!!
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Old 02-01-2015, 09:37 AM
VAYankee VAYankee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere View Post
My thoughts exactly, Ken.

Is this what impulse buying is?

Someone who knows nothing about autographs all-of-a-sudden leaps to purchase high-end autographs of Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, etc?

Is that why sellers of forgeries are so successful?

Damn right it is!!!!
I suppose my simple reply is that "you don't know, what you don't know." I'm sure when you all started here you weren't instant experts as well and have learned along the way. To my credit, I didn't buy the Ruth or Gehrig balls, because I sensed something wasn't right. I came here, and that was confirmed.

As a bit of background, I have been collecting for years, mainly contemporary although a couple DiMaggio/Mantle type of balls sprinkled in. I stopped buying stuff like the DiMaggio balls when I saw the HBO special about the industry and Mr. Frangipani, of which I have one of the balls he certified - in fact, I went to NY, met him and the seller. I got burned and went away, except to stuff that was certified by MLB or perhaps Steiner (for Yankees stuff - did not pay full retail though as that's crazy).

I got "back in" after my best friend told me about JDE. Seemed legit, he had purchased a few nice pieces from them...seemed safe. Is that not something most people, even here, would do? Obtaining a Ruth and Gehrig ball has always been a lifelong dream. I'm glad I didn't spend $5k here on one only to find out later it was a fake.
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