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  #451  
Old 06-12-2019, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stampsfan View Post
I've already posted, that's my answer to the poll.
http://net54baseball.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=231

Not bought a card in a few weeks now, and have hardly looked. Not gonna pay for PSA grading that we planned a trip around this fall.

I truly hope I've not lost the collecting bug, but truth is I'm not interested in trying to figure out what PSA cards are doctored and what are not.

I did buy myself a couple of new wedges (54 and 58 degree) a week ago, and got my wife a new 5 iron and electric walking cart.
Great tactic. If my golf game was better, Id definitely do the same!
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  #452  
Old 06-12-2019, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
How about a poll on how many people will stop buying from consigning to PWCC.
How can you include PWCC, but not PSA? And, instead of a poll, how about a pledge? Everyone signs a pledge not to do business with either company in any way. Who wants to sign their name?
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  #453  
Old 06-12-2019, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
How can you include PWCC, but not PSA? And, instead of a poll, how about a pledge? Everyone signs a pledge not to do business with either company in any way. Who wants to sign their name?
Count me in.
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  #454  
Old 06-12-2019, 04:51 PM
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Perhaps Hitler himself can coax a few more to make the PSA/PWCC pledge...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuVVtMgRXIE

Last edited by perezfan; 06-12-2019 at 05:20 PM.
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  #455  
Old 06-12-2019, 05:57 PM
Bram99 Bram99 is offline
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Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
How can you include PWCC, but not PSA? And, instead of a poll, how about a pledge? Everyone signs a pledge not to do business with either company in any way. Who wants to sign their name?
I pledge to consider this once Ive completed my 49 Bowman registry set.
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  #456  
Old 06-12-2019, 09:53 PM
Kenny Cole Kenny Cole is online now
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Originally Posted by Bram99 View Post
I pledge to consider this once Ive completed my 49 Bowman registry set.
Therein lies the problem.
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  #457  
Old 06-12-2019, 09:56 PM
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I won't bid in that auction unless there's a card I need.
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  #458  
Old 06-12-2019, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
I won't bid in that auction unless there's a card I need.
Yes. That.
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  #459  
Old 06-13-2019, 05:50 AM
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I'm thinking about starting a 48 leaf PSA set buying from PWCC.

They have the best stuff
They must instill trust since people are still buying/defending them
The cards just have such high eye appeal these days
Pwcc/ebay/psa all over some type of retun or guarantee if the card get posted on blow out.


What, me worry?
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  #460  
Old 06-13-2019, 06:15 PM
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9 days after this tepid letter was uploaded to their message board, it still has not been posted on the front page of www.psacard.com and only has 2,000 page views.
It has not been crossposted to their Facebook page.
It has not been read by their representatives on the PSA hour with Vintage Breaks or the Radio Show.

PSA: still with its head in the sand hoping this will blow over.

Would be nice to know how many checks they've written, with the total value, as well as the same figures for PWCC.
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  #461  
Old 06-13-2019, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swarmee View Post
9 days after this tepid letter was uploaded to their message board, it still has not been posted on the front page of www.psacard.com and only has 2,000 page views.
It has not been crossposted to their Facebook page.
It has not been read by their representatives on the PSA hour with Vintage Breaks or the Radio Show.

PSA: still with its head in the sand hoping this will blow over.

Would be nice to know how many checks they've written, with the total value, as well as the same figures for PWCC.
1000 are probably yours, John. Laughing with you not at you. This is a classic page out of the playbook, unfortunately.
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  #462  
Old 06-13-2019, 06:29 PM
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Just a question, but isn't PSA on the hook for hundreds of thousands of dollars of guaranty money on all of the altered cards?
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  #463  
Old 06-13-2019, 07:03 PM
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We think it's closer to millions by now. But if they can get PWCC to refund, that limits their exposure.
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  #464  
Old 06-13-2019, 07:15 PM
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Yes, well over $1 million by now. Some numbers are lower as they are tracking the gain between alterations. But the guaranty would be based on the latest price.

I seriously doubt PWCC is doing many refunds. Their profit on each sale is just a portion of their fee, less eBay fees and labor costs. Probably just 2% or so per card at best. Assuming they didn’t get a cut from Moser, of course.

Last edited by egbeachley; 06-13-2019 at 07:40 PM.
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  #465  
Old 06-13-2019, 08:28 PM
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What is their vault??? I don't understand what that's all about? Are they holding cards like a in a safe deposit box as collateral ??
I'm naive can somome please explain??

Thanks
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  #466  
Old 06-13-2019, 08:56 PM
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https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/vault
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  #467  
Old 06-13-2019, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny630 View Post
What is their vault??? I don't understand what that's all about? Are they holding cards like a in a safe deposit box as collateral ??
I'm naive can somome please explain??

Thanks
Does Moser have an office at the vault? I don’t understand it either.

Last edited by jad22; 06-13-2019 at 09:41 PM.
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  #468  
Old 06-13-2019, 10:52 PM
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Weak statement. No action plan. Zero accountability. Most astounding: asserting they are good at detecting fraud. Good lord, how ridiculous can you get?


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  #469  
Old 06-14-2019, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by jad22 View Post
Does Moser have an office at the vault? I dont understand it either.
Lmao !!!

I would like to hear from Them what the hell is this vault whos stuff is it it ???
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  #470  
Old 06-14-2019, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swarmee View Post
9 days after this tepid letter was uploaded to their message board, it still has not been posted on the front page of www.psacard.com and only has 2,000 page views.
It has not been crossposted to their facebook page.
It has not been read by their representatives on the psa hour with vintage breaks or the radio show.

Psa: Still with its head in the sand hoping this will blow over.

Would be nice to know how many checks they've written, with the total value, as well as the same figures for pwcc.
zero
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  #471  
Old 06-14-2019, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Fuddjcal View Post
zero
Agree...ZERO.

Perhaps the blind will finally stop supporting PSA when they realize the "guarantee" is worthless, and come to the stark realization that they've been played.

But based on many of the responses here (and the discouraging polls) it may take some time.

Last edited by perezfan; 06-14-2019 at 02:19 PM.
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  #472  
Old 06-14-2019, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny630 View Post
Lmao !!!

I would like to hear from Them what the hell is this vault whos stuff is it it ???
Soon it may be an evidence locker!
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  #473  
Old 06-14-2019, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Republicaninmass View Post
I'm thinking about starting a 48 leaf PSA set buying from PWCC.

They have the best stuff
They must instill trust since people are still buying/defending them
The cards just have such high eye appeal these days
Pwcc/ebay/psa all over some type of retun or guarantee if the card get posted on blow out.


What, me worry?


Ted, contact Gary to see if you can buy directly out of his vault. He's been massaging 48 leaf cards for 15 years.

TMZ is reporting his nickname "scissor hands" is because of his hair line so you have NOTHING to be concerned about.

Last edited by bigfish; 06-14-2019 at 06:58 PM.
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  #474  
Old 06-16-2019, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by bigfish View Post
Ted, contact Gary to see if you can buy directly out of his vault. He's been massaging 48 leaf cards for 15 years.

TMZ is reporting his nickname "scissor hands" is because of his hair line so you have NOTHING to be concerned about.
Everyone should take a hard look at the 1948 Leaf Football Cards revealed over the last few hours on Blowout (pages 120 - 122).

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=122

These reveals show no signs of slowing down. The amount of border being cut away on all of these cards is nothing short of stunning... especially the Bill Dudley examples.

There is no possible way even the most novice grader could overlook this much missing cardboard. This can no longer be written off as ineptitude or a "hurried" grader. There has to be an ulterior motive of some kind. A 2nd Grade Kid could tell you in a heartbeat that these cards are way undersized.
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  #475  
Old 06-16-2019, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perezfan View Post
Everyone should take a hard look at the 1948 Leaf Football Cards revealed over the last few hours on Blowout (pages 120 - 122).

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=122

These reveals show no signs of slowing down. The amount of border being cut away on all of these cards is nothing short of stunning... especially the Bill Dudley examples.

There is no possible way even the most novice grader could overlook this much missing cardboard. This can no longer be written off as ineptitude or a "hurried" grader. There has to be an ulterior motive of some kind. A 2nd Grade Kid could tell you in a heartbeat that these cards are way undersized.
It is astonishing, for sure.

This is still my favorite.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2979

But recall: PSA is well-versed at combating fraud, or whatever Sloan said.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-16-2019 at 06:15 PM.
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  #476  
Old 06-16-2019, 06:24 PM
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PSA is aware of recent hobby message board activity and is conducting its own investigation into the matter.

We take consumer protection seriously, as evidenced by the thousands of altered and counterfeit cards that we reject each year, our on-going investments in grading and holder technology, and long track record of working with law enforcement to eliminate fraud from the hobby.

PSA processes more than two million cards each year and will not let isolated acts from a few dishonest actors deter consumer confidence in our brand. We will act against anyone who violates PSAs Terms & Conditions by knowingly submitting altered cards for authentication and grading. While our actions will be conducted privately, please know that the impact will be felt by those attempting to mislead collectors for personal profit.

As with any financial transaction, if you are unsatisfied with your purchase, contact the seller to initiate a refund request. If the seller is unknown, you may send the card to PSA for review under our Financial Guarantee of Grade and Authenticity.

PSA is well-versed in combating fraud and we have addressed these issues in a professional and direct way for nearly thirty years. After all these years, our hobby is stronger than ever. Rest assured that PSA will not let the actions of a few have any lingering impact on the hobby or the PSA brand.

Steve Sloan
PSA President
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just thought it was a good time to re-post the Letter that kicked off this thread. They show no remorse, shirk all responsibility, and lay the blame completely upon others. It shows no regard for the now compromised state of the hobby and there's no admittance of any wrongdoing on their part.

What a meaningless and callous written statement. It says nothing, as the hundreds of "mistakes" posted on BO speak for themselves.
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  #477  
Old 06-16-2019, 06:31 PM
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My favorite part is still the "unknown seller."

It's amazing how disingenuous people can be.

As one of my best friends likes to say, never surprised, always disappointed.
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  #478  
Old 06-16-2019, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
My favorite part is still the "unknown seller."

It's amazing how disingenuous people can be.

As one of my best friends likes to say, never surprised, always disappointed.
Yeah, that may be the best part!


A serious question for Peter, and/or any of the legal experts here...

When PSA and PWCC say "We are working with Law Enforcement", do they mean...

A. We are complying with Law Enforcement's requests for us to provide full disclosure into our own practices.

B. We are accompanying Law Enforcement in the quest to uncover the "bad apples" (which does not include ourselves)

or

C. It's just a meaningless phrase coined by an attorney to give the impression they care, but has no actual relevance.

Hoping someone can clarify, as it seems quite vague... thanks!
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  #479  
Old 06-16-2019, 07:17 PM
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Sloan mentioned PSA's track record of working with law enforcement, but does he actually say they are doing so here?
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  #480  
Old 06-16-2019, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perezfan View Post
Everyone should take a hard look at the 1948 Leaf Football Cards revealed over the last few hours on Blowout (pages 120 - 122).

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=122

These reveals show no signs of slowing down. The amount of border being cut away on all of these cards is nothing short of stunning... especially the Bill Dudley examples.

There is no possible way even the most novice grader could overlook this much missing cardboard. This can no longer be written off as ineptitude or a "hurried" grader. There has to be an ulterior motive of some kind. A 2nd Grade Kid could tell you in a heartbeat that these cards are way undersized.
We sheep are starting to figure out the clues from PSA and the TPG's. They said that they employ something like 20+ "graders". They didn't say what grade at this point. But later they even mention that once a card has been initially reviewed it has to go to a "2nd grader" for confirmation.

So right here you have the evidence and the explanation. The graders are all 2nd-graders. Once they become 3rd-graders, they are replaced. So none have more than one school year of experience grading cards because then they are replaced by another one. In second grade, everything they do is either a 9 or a 10.

A simple explanation that explains how all of these cards are getting missed.

The whole thing was right in front of our faces and we all missed it.
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  #481  
Old 06-16-2019, 07:44 PM
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Tell the wife after spending the night in the jail, "I was working with law enforcement."
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  #482  
Old 06-16-2019, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Bram99 View Post
We sheep are starting to figure out the clues from PSA and the TPG's. They said that they employ something like 20+ "graders". They didn't say what grade at this point. But later they even mention that once a card has been initially reviewed it has to go to a "2nd grader" for confirmation.

So right here you have the evidence and the explanation. The graders are all 2nd-graders. Once they become 3rd-graders, they are replaced. So none have more than one school year of experience grading cards because then they are replaced by another one. In second grade, everything they do is either a 9 or a 10.

A simple explanation that explains how all of these cards are getting missed.

The whole thing was right in front of our faces and we all missed it.
But wait, when he says that once a card has been initially reviewed it goes to a "2nd Grader" for confirmation, which seems to distinguish this grader from the initial one. Since I would suspect the confirming Grader would be more senior than the Initial grader, wouldn't that make the initial grader a 1st Grader?
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  #483  
Old 06-16-2019, 07:55 PM
steve B steve B is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bram99 View Post
We sheep are starting to figure out the clues from PSA and the TPG's. They said that they employ something like 20+ "graders". They didn't say what grade at this point. But later they even mention that once a card has been initially reviewed it has to go to a "2nd grader" for confirmation.

So right here you have the evidence and the explanation. The graders are all 2nd-graders. Once they become 3rd-graders, they are replaced. So none have more than one school year of experience grading cards because then they are replaced by another one. In second grade, everything they do is either a 9 or a 10.

A simple explanation that explains how all of these cards are getting missed.

The whole thing was right in front of our faces and we all missed it.
I wonder if I could teach my soon to be 2nd grader how to grade? I think she'd be pretty good at it, but the cards may get Cheeto stains...
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  #484  
Old 06-17-2019, 10:46 AM
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We think it's closer to millions by now. But if they can get PWCC to refund, that limits their exposure.
Massive card doctoring has been going on for 12+ years by numerous dealers selling PSA-graded cards. My estimation is that PSA's liability would easily be in the tens of millions if not eclipsing one hundred million dollars - seriously.

Also, Collectors Universe's coin grading company once tried to sue dealers who allegedly intentionally submitted doctored coins claiming the dealers were liable and not CU for the damages. CU's case was tossed out of court. I don't see any difference here.
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Last edited by WhenItWasAHobby; 06-17-2019 at 10:59 AM.
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  #485  
Old 06-17-2019, 11:09 AM
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I wonder if I could teach my soon to be 2nd grader how to grade? I think she'd be pretty good at it, but the cards may get Cheeto stains...
They need six graders just be out of elementary school.

Last edited by drcy; 06-17-2019 at 11:09 AM.
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  #486  
Old 06-17-2019, 11:09 AM
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Also, Collectors Universe's coin grading company once tried to sue dealers who allegedly intentionally submitted doctored coins claiming the dealers were liable and not CU for the damages. CU's case was tossed out of court. I don't see any difference here.
I think people need to take note of this. It's PSA wanting to pass the buck for their incompetency. PSA is the grader and authenticator. They are the ones to blame for this mess, nobody else. PSA certified these, PSA needs to be the one financially responsible. I hope a year from now we refer to PSA just like we do GAI, just another defunct grading company.
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  #487  
Old 06-17-2019, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by steve B View Post
I wonder if I could teach my soon to be 2nd grader how to grade? I think she'd be pretty good at it, but the cards may get Cheeto stains...
I think there is a person who can get the Cheeto stains out of the cards. Mike
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  #488  
Old 06-17-2019, 11:28 AM
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I think people need to take note of this. It's PSA wanting to pass the buck for their incompetency. PSA is the grader and authenticator. They are the ones to blame for this mess, nobody else. PSA certified these, PSA needs to be the one financially responsible.
Exactly.
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  #489  
Old 06-17-2019, 11:29 AM
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I think there is a person who can get the Cheeto stains out of the cards. Mike
Out, damned spot.
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  #490  
Old 06-17-2019, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
I think people need to take note of this. It's PSA wanting to pass the buck for their incompetency. PSA is the grader and authenticator. They are the ones to blame for this mess, nobody else. PSA certified these, PSA needs to be the one financially responsible. I hope a year from now we refer to PSA just like we do GAI, just another defunct grading company.
Spot on...

Sure PWCC is slimy as hell, and should be put out of business. But it's the highly defective/contradictory/inept/favorable (take your pick of adjectives) PSA Grading that makes every aspect of this scandal possible.

The fact that they try to weasel out of their meaningless "guarantee" is just more icing on the rotting cake.
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  #491  
Old 06-17-2019, 11:40 AM
barrysloate barrysloate is online now
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Out, damned spot.
Wasn't Lady Macbeth chasing the dog out of the house ( I think he peed on the floor)?

Last edited by barrysloate; 06-17-2019 at 11:40 AM.
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  #492  
Old 06-17-2019, 11:45 AM
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Wasn't Lady Macbeth chasing the dog out of the house ( I think he peed on the floor)?
Her eyes were open, but their sense was shut. One of the great exchanges in the play.
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  #493  
Old 06-17-2019, 11:50 AM
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Spot on...

Sure PWCC is slimy as hell, and should be put out of business. But it's the highly defective/contradictory/inept/favorable (take your pick of adjectives) PSA Grading that makes every aspect of this scandal possible.

The fact that they try to weasel out of their meaningless "guarantee" is just more icing on the rotting cake.
It's not an either/or. Many cases involve multiple guilty parties.
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  #494  
Old 06-17-2019, 11:54 AM
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It's not an either/or. Many cases involve multiple guilty parties.
People doctoring cards, people knowingly selling doctored cards, and TPGs who are supposed to protect collectors against this somehow slabbing countless doctored cards. It's enough to make you ill.
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Old 06-17-2019, 04:10 PM
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It's not an either/or. Many cases involve multiple guilty parties.
Yes, of course there are multiple guilty parties, which have been at work for a lot longer than this scandal has been readily apparent.

The PSA portion is the most damaging long-term, as their seal of approval gives the card an automatic "thumbs-up" to every facet of the secondary market, auction house and eBay. Hundreds (perhaps thousands) of questionable PSA-approved cards will infiltrate all of our favorite auction houses. No doubt, they already have.

Moser/PWCC is a major gateway.... and from there, it's anyone's guess where and when they will again surface.
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  #496  
Old 06-17-2019, 04:28 PM
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PSA will hope this blows over....let’s take a poll what PSA will Do?

I’m saying nothing....after the National This will all be a afterthought..sadly to many Sheeple to the Registry and Uber Wealthy High Profile People with Big 6 figure plus cards in their holders .it’s very sad....I have Zero Confidence PSA ...it’s always the pure hardcore collectors who take it on the ass...

Last edited by Johnny630; 06-17-2019 at 05:46 PM.
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  #497  
Old 06-17-2019, 04:48 PM
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PSA will hope this blows over....let’s take a poll what PSA will Do?

I’m saying nothing....after the National This will all be a afterthought..sadly to many Sheeple to the Registry and Uber Wealthy High Profile People with Big 6 figure plus cards in their holders .it’s very sad....I have Zero Confidence PSA ...it’s always the pure hardcore collectors who take it on the ass...
I wondered a while, back but, with the continuing onslaught and publicity, I think it will deeply affect PSA. Even if collectors still collect PSA, I find it hard to believe that minor increments in grade (8 versus 9, 9 versus 10) will have the same valuation.

Duly note, I think professional grading, in theory, is a good thing. I think it's good to have an independent authenticator (something they're good at), and can understand the desire for a quick hird opinion on grade in online sales. However, I've loooong thought the fetish for number grades wasn't based (much less priced) in anything rational. The chickens have come home to roose on the latter, and much it lays not at the feet of graders but the collectors.

I think this could actually possibly be the death knell for PSA, and, at the least, the scandal will alter how graded cards are prices (and obviously downward not upward). I don't see how collectors will price graded cards the same way they used to.

I predict that, for one reason and/or other (legal, financial), PWCC will be gone before long.

The funny thing (not necessarily as in ha ha funny) is PWCC was an advisement advisor and building things up as investments, but will have himself tanked the investments.

Last edited by drcy; 06-17-2019 at 05:02 PM.
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  #498  
Old 06-17-2019, 05:06 PM
steve B steve B is offline
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Originally Posted by drcy View Post
I wondered a while, back but, with the continuing onslaught and publicity, I think it will deeply affect PSA. Even if collectors still collect PSA, I find it hard to believe that minor increments in grade (8 versus 9, 9 versus 10) will have the same valuation.

Duly note, I think professional grading, in theory, is a good thing. I think it's good to have an independent authenticator (something they're good at), and can understand the desire for a quick hird opinion on grade in online sales. However, I've loooong thought the fetish for number grades wasn't based (much less priced) in anything rational. The chickens have come home to roose on the latter, and much it lays not at the feet of graders but the collectors.

I think this could actually possibly be the death knell for PSA, and, at the least, the scandal will alter how graded cards are prices (and obviously downward not upward). I don't see how collectors will price graded cards the same way they used to.

I predict that, for one reason and/or other (legal, financial), PWCC will be gone before long.

The funny thing (not necessarily as in ha ha funny) is PWCC was an advisement advisor and building things up as investments, but will have himself tanked the investments.
Sadly, I don't think it will affect them at all.
Return the card to the seller-
The seller who is crooked, and will simply crack out and resubmit to get a new "clean" serial number.
PSA gets a bit more money, the cards are now "fine" and get resold in a year or two, or maybe less. The people who buy the PSA line, or for whom it's all about the money will still pay big bucks for the same cards that they had to return earlier. The only ones happy are PSA and the seller.
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  #499  
Old 06-17-2019, 05:08 PM
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Yeah, invest in my altered cards, especially the ones with the shiny stickers. Great advice. And it would have gone on, forever, had he not been caught.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-17-2019 at 05:09 PM.
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  #500  
Old 06-17-2019, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by steve B View Post
Sadly, I don't think it will affect them at all.
Return the card to the seller-
The seller who is crooked, and will simply crack out and resubmit to get a new "clean" serial number.
PSA gets a bit more money, the cards are now "fine" and get resold in a year or two, or maybe less. The people who buy the PSA line, or for whom it's all about the money will still pay big bucks for the same cards that they had to return earlier. The only ones happy are PSA and the seller.
Unless drastic changes in grading are done, I don't think graded cards will be priced the same in the future. Collectors can be stupid, but not that stupid.
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