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  #51  
Old 06-02-2019, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by joshuanip View Post
I may be in the minority, but I hope Brent / PSA rebounds from this and criminal charges will be pressed on the card docs. People will be angry if this is the result because of the smoking gun from culpability, but I hope the hobby burns through this hot topic we are facing. punitive consequences will be defined and the maturity of our hobby’s use of tech/social media (thanks to our “super sleuths”) will act as a deterrent and make us stronger from this.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t disagree with the majority, but would be happy with realistic expectations.
I serve on a board of trustees and know you never get everything you want.
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  #52  
Old 06-02-2019, 08:05 PM
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Has he yet addressed the allegations that the PWCC ebay account was used to buy cards submitted by Moser?
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  #53  
Old 06-02-2019, 08:06 PM
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If I can find out the rotten egg at PSA, I can get this passed.
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  #54  
Old 06-02-2019, 08:16 PM
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We are now routinely in 5, 6 and 7 figure category, and it is about time our evaluation methods caught up.
This.
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  #55  
Old 06-02-2019, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Huigens View Post
We are obviously very aware of the issues surrounding the cards submitted to us by Gary Moser. First, we want to apologize to all those who have been affected by the purchasing of trimmed or altered cards. We are not disappearing or burying our heads in the sand about this. Next, we are presently working with both PSA and law enforcement to ensure that all affected cards are brought to light and this information makes its way to our customers. We understand that we are responsible for our part in this mess and will do all that we can to make it right in connection with Moser-submitted cards as well as other submitters who may have altered cards of which we auctioned. We understand how difficult it is to be patient through this process but we are working through this as quickly as we can at the direction of counsel and the appropriate authorities. Finally, in response to these recent findings, we are no longer selling any Moser-submitted cards.

We are very sorry for the trouble that has occurred and will work to regain your trust.
Right. Moser and who else?
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  #56  
Old 06-02-2019, 08:36 PM
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Verify then Trust
Court Order Subpoenas and Search Warrants for all electronic communications and records only way to find the truth
Without Above Happening This Will Be Very Difficult to Prove
Who has been submitting the cards that’s the bottom line here
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  #57  
Old 06-02-2019, 08:40 PM
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SSDD as in 2016, when it involved shilling and allowing consignors to bid on their own items. The “leopards” have not changed their spots.

Can everyone say Deja Vu?

I guess this means that since people wouldn’t buy into the new “tenets” (i.e. cheating is ok unless you get caught) that they were trying to push/defend, and with their professional reputation badly tarnished plus a possibility of criminal investigations and civil torts a growing reality, they now come out with the kind of statement that should have come out immediately from a truly reputable market maker at the outset.

Clearly this is another example of a recurring business strategy/practice with this market maker; When you find you cannot get away with unethical actions, then feign victimhood and do whatever you have to do to save your own skin.

And not a mention, not even a denial, of the allegations that accuse them of being directly involved in the purchase of cards that were then supposedly altered, re-subbed and then resold?

Those who walked away from this market maker in 2016 were the smart ones.

Integrity will ALWAYS matter!
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  #58  
Old 06-02-2019, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by kateighty View Post
Right. Moser and who else?
Other known card doctors getting cards past the Third Party Grading services and listing through PWCC, Probstein, etc. to cover their tracks:

Bill Sliheet - SSIGuy (Superior Sports Investments)
Samir Sliheet - Superior Sports Investments
Nate Nichols - affiliated with the Dallas area BGS trimmers
Will Jaimet - Heroes of Sport, submitter to PWCC
Gary Moser - eBay whitman111 vintage cards dating back to 1880s consigned to PWCC after grading by PSA
Eric Bitz - Buynicecards
Brian Deer- isellurcards (formerly Bristol Collectibles)
Kevin Burge- longtime modern card dealer
Brent Huigens
Dick Towle - Gone With the Stain
Robert Block - longtime BGS trimmer
Steve Tormollan
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Oh, what a difference a year makes.
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  #59  
Old 06-02-2019, 08:46 PM
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This guy is FUNNY! Like that could ever happen...
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PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head
PSA: Regularly Get Cheated
BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern
SGC: Closed auto authentication business
JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC
Oh, what a difference a year makes.
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  #60  
Old 06-02-2019, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swarmee View Post
Other known card doctors getting cards past the Third Party Grading services and listing through PWCC, Probstein, etc. to cover their tracks:

Bill Sliheet - SSIGuy (Superior Sports Investments)
Samir Sliheet - Superior Sports Investments
Nate Nichols - affiliated with the Dallas area BGS trimmers
Will Jaimet - Heroes of Sport, submitter to PWCC
Gary Moser - eBay whitman111 vintage cards dating back to 1880s consigned to PWCC after grading by PSA
Eric Bitz - Buynicecards
Brian Deer- isellurcards (formerly Bristol Collectibles)
Kevin Burge- longtime modern card dealer
Brent Huigens
Dick Towle - Gone With the Stain
Robert Block - longtime BGS trimmer
Steve Tormollan
The other big vintage doctors have not been outed over there.
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  #61  
Old 06-02-2019, 08:56 PM
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Heavy Circumstantial Evidence: BGS giving preferential grades to WJCII (Joe Clemons), former employee
Heavy Circumstantial Evidence: Gabriel Seraf replacing boring patches with SICK MOJO PATCHES
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PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head
PSA: Regularly Get Cheated
BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern
SGC: Closed auto authentication business
JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC
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  #62  
Old 06-02-2019, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by swarmee View Post
Other known card doctors getting cards past the Third Party Grading services and listing through PWCC, Probstein, etc. to cover their tracks:

Bill Sliheet - SSIGuy (Superior Sports Investments)
Samir Sliheet - Superior Sports Investments
Nate Nichols - affiliated with the Dallas area BGS trimmers
Will Jaimet - Heroes of Sport, submitter to PWCC
Gary Moser - eBay whitman111 vintage cards dating back to 1880s consigned to PWCC after grading by PSA
Eric Bitz - Buynicecards
Brian Deer- isellurcards (formerly Bristol Collectibles)
Kevin Burge- longtime modern card dealer
Brent Huigens
Dick Towle - Gone With the Stain
Robert Block - longtime BGS trimmer
Steve Tormollan

Are any of these docs part of the Net54 community?
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  #63  
Old 06-02-2019, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
David as you've likely seen, on the modern side there are similar threads on known trimmers and PWCC on BO.
Hi Peter - yes, I've seen those. I've pretty much read every post of every relevant thread. I contributed a very small amount of the research to find original sales of some of the cards. Big kudos to those other blowout guys, though - they deserve all the credit.

I'm highly skeptical that an entire list will ever be produced, and here are a couple reasons why.

#1 - Money. Neither PWCC or PSA is going to want to refund on these cards. I think PWCC will selectively try and take the hit, but there are very likely going to be thousands of cards just from Moser. Who knows what else is out there, but I think it's pretty safe to assume there is way more than we've seen. As good as those Blowout guys are, they just don't have enough info to find it all and the Moser relationship alone goes back 7-8 years AT LEAST. That's not the only one out there, we just don't have great proof of others yet but I would imagine they are out there. I just don't believe PWCC will be able to take the hit across all the cards by themselves, so a flip numbers release is a low probability event. I don't see any way PSA agrees to admit they missed anything. As a public company, their ONLY real course of action is to defend their graders. Any flip number release from them is a no probability event. Get used to these words - "within tolerance", as that will be the key phrase. So then, is PWCC going to sue PSA to force them to contribute? That to me is also a going out of business strategy.

#2 - The Set Registry. I know a lot of people think the Set Registry is one of the reasons we are in this mess, but can you imagine the upheaval there is all of a sudden PSA were to actually decertify a bunch of cards? That's basically an invitation to make the claim for market difference with them, which again I see is a no probability event.

#3 - Data. In order to cross reference anything that comes out, you'd need the consignor and sales data from PWCC, all the submission data from PSA (and/or other TPGs) and all the bidder/sale data from eBay so it could all be cross-checked. There is NO WAY eBay is going to release all that data to anyone, and I don't see PSA releasing submission owner data to anyone. Once again, the public companies aren't going to assist this effort unless they are compelled to do so by a government agency of some kind, which is a fight that could take years and even if they had to do it the public market would NEVER get to see any of it.

So with that as your backdrop, I think the easiest choice is that PSA fights everyone to the death over their grades and backs their graders 100%, PWCC tries to take the financial hit and hopes the weight of lost consignment revenue and refunds for questionable cards doesn't sink them. No way PSA contributes to this, otherwise they are just inviting the refunds to pass over to them. PWCC isn't likely to fight that if they ever want to be able to submit again, otherwise they'd have to sue PSA which is essentially a going out of business plan as well.

There's no clear path here, but ultimately the easiest path seems to be this is PWCCs problem, and everybody else just kind of walks away. That's my take anyway.
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  #64  
Old 06-02-2019, 09:39 PM
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Maybe I’m missing something obvious here, but what crime is being committed by someone who buys a baseball card in a PSA case and then cracks it out, trims the edge, and resubmits it to PSA, which then takes a fresh look at it (either realizing or not realizing they’ve seen the card before) and then assigned it a better grade on the basis that the card still meets their criteria. Or if Brent receives a card from a guy who got a card regraded from PSA.

I not justifying any of these shenanigans. Just wondering what LE is doing with this?
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  #65  
Old 06-02-2019, 09:47 PM
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Maybe I’m missing something obvious here, but what crime is being committed by someone who buys a baseball card in a PSA case and then cracks it out, trims the edge, and resubmits it to PSA, which then takes a fresh look at it (either realizing or not realizing they’ve seen the card before) and then assigned it a better grade on the basis that the card still meets their criteria. Or if Brent receives a card from a guy who got a card regraded from PSA.

I not justifying any of these shenanigans. Just wondering what LE is doing with this?
I've asked the exact same question in multiple threads. Like you, not justifying what happened or defending anyone, I'm just not sure what laws were broken.
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  #66  
Old 06-02-2019, 09:49 PM
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Along with the altered T206 Jennings," there are at least 245 communists in the State Department!" How can a accurate list of the "doctored cards" be put together?
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  #67  
Old 06-02-2019, 09:56 PM
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I've asked the exact same question in multiple threads. Like you, not justifying what happened or defending anyone, I'm just not sure what laws were broken.
I believe both wire fraud and mail fraud can be applied if those responsible are not disclosing the alteration and using the internet and/or USPS to sell the card in question. Depending on the volume and aggregate value of the cards involved there also might be a a racketeering/RICO issue.
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  #68  
Old 06-02-2019, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Snapolit1 View Post
Maybe I’m missing something obvious here, but what crime is being committed by someone who buys a baseball card in a PSA case and then cracks it out, trims the edge, and resubmits it to PSA, which then takes a fresh look at it (either realizing or not realizing they’ve seen the card before) and then assigned it a better grade on the basis that the card still meets their criteria. Or if Brent receives a card from a guy who got a card regraded from PSA.



I not justifying any of these shenanigans. Just wondering what LE is doing with this?


Negligence. And if they knowingly knew that it was altered...well there’s your crime. Not saying they did but hard to ignore the volume from at least one trimmer.


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  #69  
Old 06-02-2019, 09:57 PM
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I've asked the exact same question in multiple threads. Like you, not justifying what happened or defending anyone, I'm just not sure what laws were broken.
I answered you, but maybe you didn't read it. Or maybe I don't count, that's fine lol.
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  #70  
Old 06-02-2019, 09:58 PM
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Negligence. And if they knowingly knew that it was altered...well there’s your crime. Not saying they did but hard to ignore the volume from at least one trimmer.


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Negligence of this kind is not a legal violation. It’s a civil tort.
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  #71  
Old 06-02-2019, 10:01 PM
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I've asked the exact same question in multiple threads. Like you, not justifying what happened or defending anyone, I'm just not sure what laws were broken.
Knowingly misrepresenting something to be something that it's not - that's basically the definition of fraud.

Where money is involved, that makes it a crime.

Proving it sufficiently to convict in a court of law, could be a long road. This game is in the early innings still, there's a lot more to come.
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  #72  
Old 06-02-2019, 10:01 PM
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Negligence of this kind is not a legal violation. It’s a civil tort.
Knowledge of the law is not a prerequisite here to pontificating about the law.
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  #73  
Old 06-02-2019, 10:01 PM
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Negligence. And if they knowingly knew that it was altered...well there’s your crime. Not saying they did but hard to ignore the volume from at least one trimmer.


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Negligence is not a crime.
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  #74  
Old 06-02-2019, 10:02 PM
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Knowledge of the law is not a prerequisite here to pontificating about the law.
Thank goodness. I'm an engineer and get all my legal "training" from television. Loved Matlock as a kid.
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  #75  
Old 06-02-2019, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Snapolit1 View Post
Maybe I’m missing something obvious here, but what crime is being committed by someone who buys a baseball card in a PSA case and then cracks it out, trims the edge, and resubmits it to PSA, which then takes a fresh look at it (either realizing or not realizing they’ve seen the card before) and then assigned it a better grade on the basis that the card still meets their criteria. Or if Brent receives a card from a guy who got a card regraded from PSA.

I not justifying any of these shenanigans. Just wondering what LE is doing with this?
I was not aware that trimmed or recolored cards meet PSA's criteria for getting numerical grades. And that's the point. If the cards are submitted with full disclosure what was done to them, then that would be fine. But they are being submitted under a guise that such work was not performed, with the intent the cards be eventually purchased by collectors believing they are unaltered.

You see nothing fraudulent in that?
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  #76  
Old 06-02-2019, 10:07 PM
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I always liked Columbo myself.
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  #77  
Old 06-02-2019, 10:08 PM
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Knowledge of the law is not a prerequisite here to pontificating about the law.
So true.
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  #78  
Old 06-02-2019, 10:10 PM
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So true.
Todd yeah I used to have the patience for it, but I resist the temptation much of the time now.
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  #79  
Old 06-02-2019, 10:11 PM
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Knowingly misrepresenting something to be something that it's not - that's basically the definition of fraud.

Where money is involved, that makes it a crime.

Proving it sufficiently to convict in a court of law, could be a long road. This game is in the early innings still, there's a lot more to come.
While what they're doing is unethical, Im not so sure it's against the law. They're representing it as it is certified to be. If (insert any TPG here) says it's a (insert grade here) and they're selling it as such, not sure they're breaking any law. Let me be clear for all. I'm not justifying it, I just don't see how they're legally (key word) misrepresenting it. Wouldn't their defense in court be that they paid for a 3rd party opinion and that third party is supposed to label altered cards as such? That they were expecting the TPG to label it as such?
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  #80  
Old 06-02-2019, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
While what they're doing is unethical, Im not so sure it's against the law. They're representing it as it is certified to be. If (insert any TPG here) says it's a (insert grade here) and they're selling it as such, not sure they're breaking any law. Let me be clear for all. I'm not justifying it, I just don't see how they're legally (key word) misrepresenting it. Wouldn't their defense in court be that they paid for a 3rd party opinion and that third party is supposed to label altered cards as such? That they were expecting the TPG to label it as such?
Didn't you and I have this exact discussion? Or am I losing it? Go read the mail and wire fraud statutes and come back. Don't read RICO, there would be no need for a prosecutor to go there.

See what I mean, Todd? "I'm not so sure it's against the law."
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  #81  
Old 06-02-2019, 10:13 PM
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This is really painful to read.
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  #82  
Old 06-02-2019, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by benjulmag View Post
I was not aware that trimmed or recolored cards meet PSA's criteria for getting numerical grades. And that's the point. If the cards are submitted with full disclosure what was done to them, then that would be fine. But they are being submitted under a guise that such work was not performed, with the intent the cards be eventually purchased by collectors believing they are unaltered.

You see nothing fraudulent in that?
If I sell house and don’t tell the buyer there was six feet of water in the basement of the house last year that is not a crime. If I signed a disclosure document affirmatively saying there was never a flood at the house that could be a crime.
If someone can point me to a law saying that the seller of a collectible needs to disclosure any alterations done to the card prior to the sale I’m all ears.

Not justifying this just wondering what law enforcement is up to. If they are up to anything.

Last edited by Snapolit1; 06-02-2019 at 10:16 PM.
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  #83  
Old 06-02-2019, 10:15 PM
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Along with the altered T206 Jennings," there are at least 245 communists in the State Department!" How can a accurate list of the "doctored cards" be put together?
Not sure how many got the Manchurian Candidate reference. What a movie!

Sorry. Now back to the real drama...
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  #84  
Old 06-02-2019, 10:18 PM
70ToppsFanatic 70ToppsFanatic is offline
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Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
While what they're doing is unethical, Im not so sure it's against the law. They're representing it as it is certified to be. If (insert any TPG here) says it's a (insert grade here) and they're selling it as such, not sure they're breaking any law. Let me be clear for all. I'm not justifying it, I just don't see how they're legally (key word) misrepresenting it. Wouldn't their defense in court be that they paid for a 3rd party opinion and that third party is supposed to label altered cards as such? That they were expecting the TPG to label it as such?
That may be a successful defense as long as it cannot be shown that they had knowledge of any alterations. If it can be shown they knew the doctoring was occurring then this line of defense will not save them.

Last edited by 70ToppsFanatic; 06-02-2019 at 10:19 PM.
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  #85  
Old 06-02-2019, 10:23 PM
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If I sell house and don’t tell the buyer there was six feet of water in the basement of the house last year that is not a crime. If I signed a disclosure document affirmatively saying there was never a flood at the house that could be a crime.
If someone can point me to a law saying that the seller of a collectible needs to disclosure any alterations done to the card prior to the sale I’m all ears.

Not justifying this just wondering what law enforcement is up to. If they are up to anything.
Yet again. Mail fraud and wire fraud. Fraud -- remember? Intentional misrepresentation or concealment of a material fact.

18 USC 1341 and 1343.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-02-2019 at 10:37 PM.
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  #86  
Old 06-02-2019, 10:23 PM
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That may be a successful defense as long as it cannot be shown that they had knowledge of any alterations. If it can be shown they knew the doctoring was occurring then this line if defense will not save them.
But here is the problem. There are differences of opinion of alterations. Some believe, and have even stated such, that the alteration improved the condition of the card (as if it's a good thing). A small percentage of the collecting world believes that. So, if it's a matter of opinion, how can you say you have to disclose something that's some consider as an improvement?

FWIW, I don't think any alteration is an improvement.

Last edited by vintagetoppsguy; 06-02-2019 at 10:25 PM.
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  #87  
Old 06-02-2019, 10:27 PM
cdogstu99 cdogstu99 is offline
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I’m buying puts on CLCT tomorrow.

I can see this leading to PSA needing to repurchase altered cards that are likely worth a fraction of their original value.

Even if they weren’t in cahoots with PWCC, it has been proven that their grading capabilities are horrendous. Reputation completely tarnished with a high likelihood that their future grading revenues decline significantly.

And if they were in cahoots, this ship is going to sink even quicker.


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  #88  
Old 06-02-2019, 10:28 PM
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  #89  
Old 06-02-2019, 10:32 PM
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Uh oh, we're getting some attention.
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  #90  
Old 06-02-2019, 10:39 PM
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So, if it's a matter of opinion, how can you say you have to disclose something that's some consider as an improvement?
So if some think altering a card is a good thing and improves the card, why would you need to disclose something that is beneficial? Again, I'm not saying it is, just trying to approach this others points of view.

If I'm a house flipper and I buy a house with old aluminum wiring and have it rewired to bring it up to date, do I have to disclose it? It would obviously be a good selling point, but do I have to legally disclose it?
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  #91  
Old 06-02-2019, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
But here is the problem. There are differences of opinion of alterations. Some believe, and have even stated such, that the alteration improved the condition of the card (as if it's a good thing). A small percentage of the collecting world believes that. So, if it's a matter of opinion, how can you say you have to disclose something that's some consider as an improvement?

FWIW, I don't think any alteration is an improvement.
That’s kind of what started this whole crisis.

The hobby basically looks at this along the following lines:

Anything done to hide, disguise or remove degradation and/or deterioration that already occurred to a card is alteration and is not acceptable.

Brent tried to push a narrative that if such action can be detected then it’s ok and labeled it conservation.

Based on the response I’d say the vast majority of the hobby stakeholders felt he was full of it.
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Old 06-02-2019, 10:43 PM
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That’s kind of what started this whole crisis.

The hobby basically looks at this along the following lines:

Anything done to hide, disguise or remove degradation and/or deterioration that already occurred to a card is alteration and is not acceptable.

Brent tried to push a narrative that if such action can be detected then it’s ok and labeled it conservation.

Based on the response I’d say the vast majority of the hobby stakeholders felt he was full of it.
And what is a material fact in the context of fraud here would be determined by what a majority or even a substantial minority of people would deem important. Anyhow, lots of these cards are trimmed, so it's really a moot discussion.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-02-2019 at 10:45 PM.
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  #93  
Old 06-02-2019, 10:54 PM
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Default Woe is us!

I see this whole mess ending very badly for everyone. Dealers, collectors, investors AND TPG's alike. How in the world will PSA be able to buy back all of those altered cards, that got by them, at the prices that their monthly SMR says they are worth?
After all CEO Joe O. has signed off "Taking My Hacks" each and every month with "Never get cheated".
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Old 06-02-2019, 10:55 PM
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there's a reason why I have never and will never purchase from PWCC. They have always been scammers and whether you want to believe it or not, they WILL ALWAYS be scammers. So once this all blows over and all the idiots who were blatantly bidding on not only shilled auctions but altered cards to boot and who are now complaining about said auctions because now they have an overpriced altered card,well guess what? they WILL be back buying from PWCC again lol, why? because people are idiots. PWCC will keep on doing all the shady things they have been doing this whole time, why you ask?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

As long as there's money to be made, there will always be scammers. As long as there are consignments services, the scammers will hide behind them and when fraud is exposed the consignors will play dumb and pass the blame onto the consignees and the process will repeat itself until people stop paying the exorbitant prices these shilled auctions are selling for.

Also, please tell me that there isn't a single person that didn't see one of the TPG companies being corrupt lol. I mean, they are an open door for corruption! All these idiots who swear by PSA are the same ones who are gonna be crying when their PSA 8 1951 Mantle they paid almost 6 figures for is really an altered card worth $5k lol

As a side note, I can't help but get the feeling this situation is the first of many of the dominoes to fall which will in turn burst this massive bubble our hobby is in.

Last edited by vintagehofrookies; 06-02-2019 at 11:00 PM. Reason: have more to add
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  #95  
Old 06-02-2019, 10:56 PM
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I see this whole mess ending very badly for everyone. Dealers, collectors, investors AND TPG's alike. How in the world will PSA be able to buy back all of those altered cards, that got by them, at the prices that their monthly SMR says they are worth?
After all CEO Joe O. has signed off "Taking My Hacks" each and every month with "Never get cheated".
Some expect they'll fight tooth and nail on each and every one on which a buyback is requested.
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Old 06-02-2019, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by vintagehofrookies View Post
there's a reason why I have never and will never purchase from PWCC. They have always been scammers and whether you want to believe it or not, they WILL ALWAYS be scammers. So once this all blows over and all the idiots who were blatantly bidding on not only shilled auctions but altered cards to boot and who are now complaining about said auctions because now they have an overpriced altered card,well guess what? they WILL be back buying from PWCC again lol, why? because people are idiots. PWCC will keep on doing all the shady things they have been doing this whole time, why you ask?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

As long as there's money to be made, there will always be scammers. As long as there are consignments services, the scammers will hide behind them and when fraud is exposed the consignors will play dumb and pass the blame onto the consignees and the process will repeat itself until people stop paying the exorbitant prices these shilled auctions are selling for.

As a side note, I can't help but get the feeling this situation is the first of many of the dominoes to fall which will in turn burst this massive bubble our hobby is in.
15 years of selling altered cards, likely from multiple sources not just one, and we get a golly we're sorry about all the Moser cards.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-02-2019 at 11:00 PM.
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  #97  
Old 06-02-2019, 11:02 PM
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15 years of selling altered cards, likely from multiple sources not just one, and we get a golly we're sorry about all the Moser cards.
Greed is the real backbone of our hobby
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Old 06-02-2019, 11:04 PM
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Greed is the real backbone of our hobby
The root of all evil. Truer words...
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Old 06-02-2019, 11:16 PM
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Some expect they'll fight tooth and nail on each and every one on which a buyback is requested.
Actually in this case PSA has apparently found a willing party to cover those costs instead of going to jail for being party to a fraud.

I expect that as cards are shown to be altered and traceable to PWCC they (PWCC) will make restitution for them and turn in the cards to PSA. Meanwhile, PSA will continue to stand behind their brand and methods.

Unless forced by legal actions to disclose the full breadth of possible affected cards there is no way PSA would ever issue a comprehensive flip list. Ultimately only those cards that can shown to be doctored (along the lines of what has been shown on BO) will ever be dealt with. The rest will stay in their existing slabs and continue to be regarded as the real deal by those who are not aware of this situation. If submitted for review PSA has no incentive to change the original opinion, because doing so would undermine the perception of their brand.

If you have any doubts about this scenario coming to pass just go back a few years and see what happened to the majority of the “late model” vintage cellos with stars showing that made it into slabs and are still being bought, sold and exchanged in the hobby today.

This isn’t like Johnson & Johnson and the Tylenol problem in the 80s.

Last edited by 70ToppsFanatic; 06-02-2019 at 11:17 PM.
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Old 06-02-2019, 11:54 PM
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Actually in this case PSA has apparently found a willing party to cover those costs instead of going to jail for being party to a fraud.

I expect that as cards are shown to be altered and traceable to PWCC they (PWCC) will make restitution for them and turn in the cards to PSA. Meanwhile, PSA will continue to stand behind their brand and methods.

Unless forced by legal actions to disclose the full breadth of possible affected cards there is no way PSA would ever issue a comprehensive flip list. Ultimately only those cards that can shown to be doctored (along the lines of what has been shown on BO) will ever be dealt with. The rest will stay in their existing slabs and continue to be regarded as the real deal by those who are not aware of this situation. If submitted for review PSA has no incentive to change the original opinion, because doing so would undermine the perception of their brand.

If you have any doubts about this scenario coming to pass just go back a few years and see what happened to the majority of the “late model” vintage cellos with stars showing that made it into slabs and are still being bought, sold and exchanged in the hobby today.

This isn’t like Johnson & Johnson and the Tylenol problem in the 80s.
This is exactly what I've been trying to convey all along, but it seems to fall on a lot of deaf ears. I guess this group largely wants PSA to thrive and survive for personal financial reasons.

Last edited by perezfan; 06-02-2019 at 11:54 PM.
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