May 17th and no no hitter yet?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Your %'s would be accurate if there were 10 batters in a line-up instead of 9, if the pitcher always hit .000 and the replacement #9 (or #10 in your scenario) batter always hit 1.000, and if the opposing pitcher wasn't ever replaced by a pinch hitter.

It does account for it. Plus i think DH in the American league has a 10% better chance to get a hit versus a Starting pitcher plus a pinch hitter in the 9th etc..

[Snapolit1]

Didn't know Virgil was the uncle of recently deceased Allman Brother drummer Butch Trucks.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Didn't know Virgil was the uncle of recently deceased Allman Brother drummer Butch Trucks.

He also threw a one-hitter that year & all three low-hit games were 1-0!

He finished 5-19 with a 3.97 on a horrible Tigers team.

After 'retiring', he was the batting practice pitcher for several teams for years and years.


He passed away at 95 in 2013 but in 2005, someone had given my his address to which I sent a twenty dollar check and received a signed copy of his biography, "Throwing Heat" and a very nice personalized thank you note in the shaky cursive writing of an 87-year-old. I do wish I had taken the opportunity to meet him.

[packs]

The DH of an American League team is still going to make an out more than 70% of the time on average. It is not like every team's DH is Rod Carew, though I do concede that usually any position player stands a better chance of getting a hit than a pitcher.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by packs

The DH of an American League team is still going to make an out more than 70% of the time on average. It is not like every team's DH is Rod Carew, though I do concede that usually any position player stands a better chance of getting a hit than a pitcher.

How much of a better chance? 10%? Now you see why i get annoyed with the 'almost no hitter' in the NL.....because no hitters in the NL arent even worth the same as AL no hitters...

You can be a pitcher and have a .070 on base percentage on the year ..but try that being a DH..see how long you will stay in the lineup.

Leagues make rule changes based on 20 years of history (thus they look at modern trends as reality) so you cant just say its only 20 years of history and we need to go back to 1970 as someone else stated... Its not even close as far as how many NL no hitters there have been versus AL in the last 20 years. Lets see the next 2 out of 3 no hitters be in AL parks before we bring this back up.

[packs]

I don't know what you mean by worth. In 2016 Prince Fielder played 89 games total, 80 of which he served as DH. He hit 212 with a 292 OBP.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't know what you mean by worth. In 2016 Prince Fielder played 89 games total, 80 of which he served as DH. He hit 212 with a 292 OBP.

If he was a Starting Pitcher, that would make him one of the best Starting Pitcher hitters in the past 20 years. How many starting pitchers in the NL last year had a higher than 292 OBP. (Madison Baumgarner's career OBP is .233 and career best is .286) I am sure I can point to some DH's that hit .300+ as well and can point to many Starting pitchers that hit under .100.... I can also point to some number 8 hitters in NL lineups that were pitched around more than number 8 hitters in AL lineups due to the pitcher hitting in the 1-6th innings..

Not many DH's hit 9th or 8th? How many starting pitchers hit 9th or 8th? Why do so many starting pitchers hit 9th? Is it because they are great hitters? There are at least more than a few DH's hitting cleanup or 5th...

at least 16 of the last 20 no hitters (thats a large sample size) have been in NL parks.. like i said ..lets wait to see when the next 2 out of 3 no hitters are in AL parks before analyze more..

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

How much of a better chance? 10%? Now you see why i get annoyed with the 'almost no hitter' in the NL.....because no hitters in the NL arent even worth the same as AL no hitters...

You can be a pitcher and have a .070 on base percentage on the year ..but try that being a DH..see how long you will stay in the lineup.

Leagues make rule changes based on 20 years of history (thus they look at modern trends as reality) so you cant just say its only 20 years of history and we need to go back to 1970 as someone else stated... Its not even close as far as how many NL no hitters there have been versus AL in the last 20 years. Lets see the next 2 out of 3 no hitters be in AL parks before we bring this back up.

Chase Anderson goes 7 innings of no hit ball? Yet another almost NL no hitter C'mon


Plus 1 hitters with no walks are a lot more impressive than no hitters with 5 walks....chase had at least 3 walks yesterday..

[frankbmd]

So if I am reading this thread correctly, only no-hitters in the American League after the institution of the DH in 1973 are valid.

Therefore Sandy Koufax has zero career no-hitters.

Nolan Ryan had a combination of AL no-hitters and NL almost no-hitters.

I'm not sure if any HOF pitchers have mention of no-hitters on their plaque in Cooperstown, but if so, inserting the word "almost" on their plaque could be problematic. Would an asterisk (a la Maris) be sufficient?

And what about poor Johnny Vandermeer. Would his double no-hitter be wiped off the books completely or would it be considered an "almost" double no-hitter.

In summation, I would be willing to bet that not one of the proponents of the DH rule change for the American League realized that their proposal would invalidate all prior no-hitters.

I say "long live the Almost No-Hitter".

For clarity of the linguistics involved, I would propose a different term for no-hitters broken up in the late innings, and would suggest calling these "Nearly No-Nos".

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Chase Anderson goes 7 innings of no hit ball? Yet another almost NL no hitter C'mon


Plus 1 hitters with no walks are a lot more impressive than no hitters with 5 walks....chase had at least 3 walks yesterday..

Now you're getting wound up about non-no hit games? LOL!


I think I'm going to start an autograph collage. All pitchers (AL only) who had their no-hitters broken up after 7 innings.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

It does account for it. Plus i think DH in the American league has a 10% better chance to get a hit versus a Starting pitcher plus a pinch hitter in the 9th etc..

If that were true, that's only one spot in the batting order. I'm not a mathematician by any means, but I believe you'd have to divide that 10% difference among the 9 spots in the original batting order to come close to an actual conclusion

....... and nowadays losing teams are generally subbing in a pinch hitter for their starting pitcher long before the 9th inning. Especially if they are being shut out and are desperate for runs.

Yes, it is slightly easier to pitch a no-hitter in the NL as opposed to the AL, but nowhere near the difference you are proposing.

Either way, it's a damn fine accomplishment, that should not be diminished one way or another.

I'm sure more no-hitters happen against weak hitting teams rather then strong hitting teams to. These are still professional hitters though, and lots has to go right for something like this to fall into place.

[bn2cardz]

I don't think there is any support for the NL vs AL debate overall.

The opposite thinking of a DH making one more spot in the rotation harder is that the pitcher not having to swing a bat and possibly run bases can rest their bodies between innings.

The batting average for the NL is .252, for the AL it is .247. So you could say that the NL would be harder since they have the higher batting average.

The DH was introduced in 1973. Since then here are the break downs:
51 - AL
54 - NL

Perfect Games Since 1973
9 - AL
5 - NL

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

I don't think there is any support for the NL vs AL debate overall.

The opposite thinking of a DH making one more spot in the rotation harder is that the pitcher not having to swing a bat and possibly run bases can rest their bodies between innings.

The batting average for the NL is .252, for the AL it is .247. So you could say that the NL would be harder since they have the higher batting average.

The DH was introduced in 1973. Since then here are the break downs:
51 - AL
54 - NL

Perfect Games Since 1973
9 - AL
5 - NL

However we are talking about getting a no hitter now , not in 1973. If you look at the last 20 no hitters, how many were NL or in NL parks...im guessing its far more than 10% more than the AL ones..more like 50%+ more..

For the past 10 years etc its clearly trending in the NL favor i believe it will show.

[bn2cardz]

Another interesting stat debunking the NL vs AL myth when it comes to no hitters:

1971-1972 - NO DH
1971 - 3 no hitters all NL
1972 - 3 no hitters all NL

1973 - DH introduced
5 no hitters, 4 of them were in the AL

1974
3 no hitters, all in the AL

So the two years before it was introduced there were 6 no hitters all in the NL, the 2 years afterwards there were 8 no hitters and 7 of them were in the AL.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

Another interesting stat debunking the NL vs AL myth when it comes to no hitters:

1971-1972 - NO DH
1971 - 3 no hitters all NL
1972 - 3 no hitters all NL

1973 - DH introduced
5 no hitters, 4 of them were in the AL

1974
3 no hitters, all in the AL

So the two years before it was introduced there were 6 no hitters all in the NL, the 2 years afterwards there were 8 no hitters and 7 of them were in the AL.

Still the trend is your friend...how about the last 20 no hitters..how many in al versus nl parks.. Here are the last 20, two were interleague and the Marlin one was in an NL park..not sure about the other one.. as for the other 18, FIFTEEN were in NL ballparks...

Jered Weaver May 2, 2012 AL Los Angeles Angels Minnesota Twins 9 - 0
Johan Santana June 1, 2012 NL New York Mets St. Louis Cardinals 8 - 0
Matt Cain June 13, 2012 NL San Francisco Giants Houston Astros 10 - 0 Perfect Game
Felix Hernandez August 15, 2012 AL Seattle Mariners Tampa Bay Rays 1 - 0 Perfect Game
Homer Bailey September 28, 2012 NL Cincinnati Reds Pittsburgh Pirates 1 - 0
Homer Bailey July 2, 2013 NL Cincinnati Reds San Francisco Giants 3 - 0
Tim Lincecum July 13, 2013 NL San Francisco Giants San Diego Padres 9 - 0
Henderson Alvarez September 29, 2013 NL Miami Marlins Detroit Tigers 1 - 0 Interleague Play; final game of season
Josh Beckett May 25, 2014 NL Los Angeles Dodgers Philadelphia Phillies 6 - 0
Clayton Kershaw June 18, 2014 NL Los Angeles Dodgers Colorado Rockies 8 - 0
Tim Lincecum June 25, 2014 NL San Francisco Giants San Diego Padres 4 - 0
Jordan Zimmermann September 28, 2014 NL Washington Nationals Miami Marlins 1 - 0 Final game of season
Chris Heston June 9, 2015 NL San Francisco Giants New York Mets 5 - 0
Max Scherzer June 20, 2015 NL Washington Nationals Pittsburgh Pirates 6 - 0
Cole Hamels July 25, 2015 NL Philadelphia Phillies Chicago Cubs 5 - 0
Hisashi Iwakuma August 12, 2015 AL Seattle Mariners Baltimore Orioles 3 - 0
Mike Fiers August 21, 2015 AL Houston Astros Los Angeles Dodgers 3 - 0 Interleague Play
Jake Arrieta August 30, 2015 NL Chicago Cubs Los Angeles Dodgers 2 - 0
Max Scherzer October 3, 2015 NL Washington Nationals New York Mets 2 - 0
Jake Arrieta April 21, 2016 NL Chicago Cubs Cincinnati Reds 16 - 0