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#51
05-13-2009, 10:58 AM
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Barry I love ya man I hope you know that!
 But if I’m being honest I’m a little surprised that you are so quick to disregard Kevin’s comments. As a person purely your choice but you are a rare exception here and walk the fine line of a collector/fellow member but more importantly a leading auction house. Not saying we string anyone up but as an auction house owner not sure I would be so publicly forgiving of Kevin’s comments.  Cheers, John 
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#52
05-13-2009, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
 As a casual highend cardbuyer all this talk of altering, doctering etc,,, is rather disturbing. Im really glad I dont collect oddities, seems like to me this is the biggest area to fraud someone. After reading this the so called experts of detecting this type of behaviour may in fact be the ones to worry about. Very disturbing. 
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#54
05-13-2009, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
__________________
Looking for Nebraska Indians memorabilia, photos and postcards
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#55
05-13-2009, 11:24 AM
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One thing I always found really odd was the direction Kevin took on some of these things.
“I wish...but no. Although I can make many or some of the colors disappear and come close, I don't know of a way to keep the yellows, name, borders and the light shades. Yellow ink is about the 2nd to go. I've tried man many times to recreate this and can't come close to the detail.” Why do you have to try and make forgeries and altered/trimmed cards to understand them or know how to debunk them? Perhaps I can see this on a very very small percentage of things where having firsthand knowledge could come in handy, but on others it makes no sense to me. Example Kevin trimming cards…plenty of trimmed cards out there to look at to know what to look for no need trimming cards and sneaking them past grading companies. Bleaching cards why? We know why the T206’s below are the way they are they missed part of the color process of the lithography printing process. No mystery why to try and replicate them which he clearly says he’s tried above?  I was able to examine the Old Mill OP and debunk those and even explain to you guys what to look for and why they were bad. I didn’t need to make a stamp and start making my own overprints to understand what to look for too debunk them...this method has always seemed very odd to me. Also we bust on grading companies all the time how does figuring out ways to sneak things past them make the situation better or make their jobs any easier. I agree with the person who compared it too sneaking a knife past airport security your no National hero just kind of a putz. Most of that sneaking stuff past PSA and SGC stuff was self serving at best to make Kevin appear to be smarter than the 3rd party guys no wonder they didn’t welcome him with open arms. And after seeing what Kevin wrote in those emails perhaps it was self serving in more way than one…just food for thought. Cheers, John
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#56
05-13-2009, 11:40 AM
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__________________
http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets
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#57
05-13-2009, 11:43 AM
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Hey John- allow me to rephrase:
I think what Kevin said in the email was dreadful, but unless I am forgetting something he seemed to be a straight shooter up until you posted that. Do I think he is being honest when he says he didn't mean what he said? Probably not, but I'm giving him a few points for past good behavior. I do understand you are angry, however; and you have been a great friend so I will support you, of course.
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#58
05-13-2009, 11:44 AM
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#59
05-13-2009, 11:49 AM
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And I understand the point system..LOL
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#60
05-13-2009, 11:55 AM
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Dan ok fair points but here are the only two possible outcomes based on Kevin’s comments IMO.
A.) Kevin is braggart and blowhard who likes to tell stories (Incriminating) offline in private emails. Which means he isn’t 100% truthful with what he discusses which blows his creditability as a non-biased expert in the field of doctored cards. B.) The very clear nature of his statements are just that he’s bragging about genuine things that he has done to alter cards and place them in the hobby out of pure spite. This would make him a Patrick Chan type offender. Either one is not good (A.) makes him not trustworthy and (B.) makes him a criminal...even in the link above to the Nodgrass post from 2008 Kevin says… “I would really like the opportunity to examine one of these fake Nodgrass cards in person.” http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...+Beloved+Hobby Would you send cards to a person who has typed what he typed regardless of point (A.) or (B.) stance? For years now anytime anyone ever asked him a question he has always come from a stance of how dare you question my integrity or motives. This from a guy who popped up out of nowhere as an expert 2 or so years ago? His response to me in a previous thread. http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...e+1933+Goudeys “I have no problem showing my various alterations that have been graded but as typical I find your arrogance and demeaning tone insulting to say the least. Here are just "a few" examples of some cards that were not just slightly altered or simply soaked....those can always get past. These were testing the limits in various ways. I can only imagine this will still not satisfy your relentless attempt to try and degrade and demoralize. I am quite sure that you will find some other way to continue your antagonistic questioning.” Well not only do I still question you Kevin but I’m glad I did! http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...206+or+others- “John, think what you'd like but a transaction with me would all but guarantee the card would not be altered." I will respond to that comment from June 10th 2007 with a quote of yours…. “Our secret - I have never sold an altered card but for those few "true asses" on 54, I have made sure that each already has or will have an altered card in their collection (some more than one)....it will be their guess as to which one. I'll tell them exactly that some day. Again...I didn't make a penny (it actually cost me) but well worth it .” Kevin Saucier
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#61
05-13-2009, 12:04 PM
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Sorry, I didn't mean angry with me, I meant angry at the email....there's too much fightin' going on. I'm just trying to take the high road. I'm tired of being at odds with so many different people.
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#62
05-13-2009, 12:09 PM
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Wonka, it was a tremendously stupid thing to say...especially in an email to Scott Elkins who I think has no integrity whatsoever. I believe your situation 'A' fits the bill here. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the statement at all....seems people are making a mountain out of a molehill though. Kevin is a small fish in a big pond and it seems to me his comment was obviously false, but I guess that doesn't seem to be the perception of most here.
__________________
Looking for Nebraska Indians memorabilia, photos and postcards
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#63
05-13-2009, 12:23 PM
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Dan
I don't think Kevin is a Patrick Chan type. I have not seen that behavour exhibited. I do think what he said in the email was no joke though, as there is no evidence that it was. When the email was exposed then, and ONLY THEN, it became a joke. Of course had it stayed private it would never have made the front page Net54 news. But again, when having an idiot scumbag for a friend what can you expect?
As for Jim Rivera and his association with idiot Elkins....it's not the same. I don't see where Jim has ever said he would like to defraud people on Net54, and already has. That is the difference. Do I think Kevin is the biggest issue in the hobby? Of course I don't. Do I think he is associating with a lunatic and it caught up to him this time? Yes, I do. This whole situation will pass but I will never ever think of Kevin in the same light again. I was sort of neutral most times until now.....pluck pluck.....
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#64
05-13-2009, 12:47 PM
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#65
05-13-2009, 02:17 PM
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Ok, I have my own opinions. I don't always go along with the masses.
Yes, I do talk to Scott Elkins. Just because I talk to him doesn't mean I share his personal views. I know most of you on this board don't like him. As far as I know, Scott has not comitted any fraud. Scott does fly off the handle and writes very strong statments on his board. I have told him I disagree with this very strongly. I hate it. Just because Scott doesn't like Leon,that wont stop me from talking or dealing with Leon. Also, a lot of you believed in T206 Museum. I didn't. So if I went along with what everybody else does, I would not have figured out about Pat Chan and the Museum. Anyone who has ever delt with me knows I am honest and very easy to deal with. If you check every post I have ever made, they are positive. There are no personal attacks or jabs. Collectors need to unite their knowledge and rid the hobby of Chans. As long as your personal life doesn't involve cheating or fraud, it doesn't concern me. I know Leon and Scott have a bad past, but that doesn't include me. I am going to deal with Leon and Scott and anybody else that is honest. I also think a lot of board members have had good deals with Scott, including Leon, they just disagree with his personal life and the outragous board rants. I really don't think Kevin is a Chan but his statement was disturbing. I have never talked to Kevin but I think he has good intentions for the hobby-I'm not sure that goes for 54ers. 54 can be brutal. I have tried to stay away from contaversy, but when I figured out Chan and the Museum and talk to several people about it, that went out the window.I enjoy 54 and will continue to hang out here. You have to cross these paths in the hobby and on the chat boards. JR
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#66
05-13-2009, 02:33 PM
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Jim
I have never had any issue with you whatsoever and our dealings have always been perfect. I hope that continues. I won't make this into an Elkins bashing post but just so everyone knows the main reason *I think he hates me is because of me putting banner ads on this board. He also thinks there were several situations that I tried to get people not to bid on cards so I could win them cheaper. Of course this is in no way true and each and every thing he ever mentioned I proved wrong. I have never done anything wrong to him at all. The other thing he hates me for is letting BCD post about an issue on the board, that they had with each other. After 3-4 days I locked the thread as enough was enough. For these things he has decided to hate me and go off the deep end with an enormous amount of vitriol towards me. It almost seems his whole life is consumed with bashing me and, I think, that is the reason he was kicked off of another chat board that he actually started. I just thought I might explain what I think are the issues he has with me. I much prefer to talk about, and collect, cards with my friends. take care now....
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#67
05-13-2009, 02:42 PM
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Leon, one thing is certain and that is, he has an obsession with you that is not healthy. His chatboard is like watching a train wreck really slowly.
__________________
Looking for Nebraska Indians memorabilia, photos and postcards
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#68
05-13-2009, 02:54 PM
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Jim well said.
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#69
05-13-2009, 02:57 PM
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Leon-I will continue to deal with you -I don't care what anyone thinks about you. You have added very nice cards to my collection and every deal was perfect.
I know this board is hard to run and moderate. Very time consuming. Just because Scott has issues with you, that will not effect my opinion of you. Sometimes not doing what evrybody wants makes you not so popular but as long as you are honest, you are ok with me. Thanks for sticking up for me in your otherpost  JR thanks John Last edited by cfc1909; 05-13-2009 at 03:02 PM.
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#71
05-13-2009, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Now my clients who are idiots and morons would be OK with it.
__________________
Read my blog; it will make all your dreams come true. https://adamstevenwarshaw.substack.com/ Or not... Last edited by Exhibitman; 05-13-2009 at 04:15 PM.
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#72
05-13-2009, 04:34 PM
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Last edited by MikeU; 05-13-2009 at 05:19 PM.
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#73
05-13-2009, 05:49 PM
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I take the stance on forgers and scammers in our hobby that MLB does with gamblers.
You don't scam anyone or forge baseball cards ever. You don't associate with know scammers or forgers. This is the cardinal rule and if you break it you lose all credibility and are not given a second chance. I would never, under any circumstance claim to have stolen from anyone, even my worst enemy.
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#74
05-14-2009, 02:58 PM
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Dan B -I am not really sure what Scott has done to you and I only know some of the history with him and Leon but as far as I know he has not comitted fraud or cheated anyone in a deal. He does write harsh things on his board and he has said enough to be kicked off this board and does that mean he has no integrity?
He may threaten you but not your collection like the Museum-I would say that is no integrity. My dealings with Scott have all been good and he has added very nice cards to my collection. He is very knowledgable with vintage cards and did help me with my research on the bar Old Mills. I know many on here don't like him but he is not as bad as he is made out to be. At least not to me. I guess we disagree on this one but that is part of a chat board JR
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#75
05-14-2009, 03:41 PM
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Jim
Yes we can agree to disagree on how bad Elkins is. NO good person raises animals to kill each other in the manner of which idiot Elkins did. Sorry, it's never been ok with me. Also, maybe you don't know but Scott bought a card from me on ebay then stopped payment on it after he got the card. I still have the stopped payment check. After about 6 mos, with enough people calling him a thief, he finally reimbursed me. He said he was teaching me a lesson for BCD supposedly ripping him off. I guess that is ok too? Saying on his stupid board that I have sold drugs to children is something I really should press charges on as it is complete fabrication. It's an open and shut case and I am contemplating doing it. I am not sure what I could get though as I hear double wides don't hold good resale value. And the fact he is a deadbeat means there probably isn't enough in a bank account to really go after. I guess those lies are ok too? Really now....if ya' hang around with lunatics long enough people can get the wrong idea. But to each their own. I won't talk about it anymore but when I hear someone saying he's not so bad it sort of makes me puke. He is actually much, much worse than he is made out to be. Take care now...
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#76
05-14-2009, 03:49 PM
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Ease up on the double wide stuff, I have to live somewhere and I do own the land. I'm kidding of course, I do have a house with no wheels, but the car is on blocks. With you 100% Leon.
Rawn
__________________
Not a forensic examiner, nor a veterinarian, but I know a horse's behind from a long ways away.
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#77
05-14-2009, 03:53 PM
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I agree not paying for six months is not good. I have never meet Scott in person and I understand what you are saying. I enjoy 54 and I wont say anymore. My posts will be about vintage cards, unless I find another bad Museum
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#78
05-14-2009, 03:55 PM
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Rawn
Very honestly it's not the double wide that upsets me at all. Heck, I think if it were out on some land of my own I could almost live in one. I am sure there are good people that live in them too. Elkins isn't one of them.
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#79
05-14-2009, 04:05 PM
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Jim, for all the reasons Leon listed is why I believe Elkins has no integrity. His little "I hate Leon" forum is something to behold. Have you ever seen anything like that on the internet before? Before you made a few posts there in the last week or so I don't believe anyone has posted there in a year besides Elkins and his made up friend. I understand that the cards will always trump everything in this hobby and some people will still deal with him, but just take an hour or so to read some of his ramblings on that site. One sick dude.
__________________
Looking for Nebraska Indians memorabilia, photos and postcards
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#80
05-14-2009, 04:13 PM
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Jim
I am very sincere in saying that I would also just like to talk about cards with my friends. That is something this board is very good for. I hope you can make it to the National this year and make the Net54 Dinner. We have a really good time.....happy collecting.
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#81
05-14-2009, 04:28 PM
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you know, I was in Atlantic City when you had teh first dinner but didn't come because I really didn't know anybody. I am not sure about Cleveland but I will be at the Baltimore one in 2010. I will also be set up with my partner , Ted Z. at Philly. I look forward to hanging out and talking cards.
I am not going to say anything else about Scott-I will be talking cards with the 54 members.
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#82
05-14-2009, 05:22 PM
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There are a hundred reasons why Elkins is the most vile degenerate in our hobby and only reasons 1-9 can be found in his insane 'forum' where he is the only member (except when he occasionally invents friends). It's no coincidence that he has been kicked off every board he has ever been on -- and yet it's always someone's fault but his own. Threats of violence, actual violence, fraud in our hobby -- Elkins is proud of it all. How he has time to partake in so many fine ventures is impressive; woops, I forgot: he's disabled.
All I can say is that due to my work I have been around plenty of people despised by society and I have to say that none have been as truly nauseating as Scott Elkins. And trust me, that says a lot.
__________________
http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets
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#83
05-14-2009, 10:52 PM
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#84
05-15-2009, 06:52 AM
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__________________
Read my blog; it will make all your dreams come true. https://adamstevenwarshaw.substack.com/ Or not... Last edited by Exhibitman; 05-15-2009 at 06:53 AM.
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#85
05-15-2009, 07:17 AM
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I have always said, if I ever become a Mayor of a city, I will build a decoy trailer park on the outskirts to attract all the tornados that come through the area, thus keeping my city safe!
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#86
05-15-2009, 09:25 AM
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I don't remember the reasons
But I heard a really good explanation of why tornados "pick on" trailer parks. If someone could find said explanation; Jim's tounge-in-cheek solution actually makes sense for the public safety.
Rich
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#88
05-15-2009, 12:55 PM
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I have had a very few select folks in cyberspace hint that I was a bit hard on the beaver if you will in regards to Kevin and this issue.
For the record I would like to make my point clear incase anyone else feels this way... I will make this simple and clear as I think I have spent way too much time on this. My job is not to provide a detailed report to you that Kevin is up to no good that’s for you to decide based on what was said. This is not Chan or an FBI deal two totally different animals. People will take what they will from his awful comments and let’s be honest here that was some pretty messed up stuff he said let’s not put icing on a turd and call it cake. My stance is I’m not going to sit on information in which a known card doctor is bragging about fraud to a targeted group regardless of what the public opinion of him may or may not be. If that makes me a bad guy in your eyes so be it. I would guess I'm not on Chan's Xmas card list this year either... Sorry good guy or not. I have zero tolerance for scammers real or fantasy land liars doesn’t matter. However you want to spin it it’s not cool and it’s not what we should expect from anyone. Especially someone with the outspoken nature that Kevin has against this very practice…extremely hypocritical to say the least and potentially criminal! The point is simple make folks aware, it’s your call what you do with the info. Time will tell if it was a monumentally mean spirited stupid lie or something far far worse. Cheers, John
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#89
05-15-2009, 01:07 PM
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John, you've got no reason to explain your motives as you were not the one caught discussing altering cards and defrauding Net 54 members -- Kevin was.
__________________
http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets Last edited by calvindog; 05-15-2009 at 01:09 PM.
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#90
05-15-2009, 01:29 PM
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Rich Klein....et al
My understanding why tornadoes strike trailer parks is that trailers are typically constructed of metal.
A thunderstorm powerful enough to develop a tornado contains a very high electrically charged potential that generates severe lightning. The lightning will take the path of least resistance to ground and the storm will track on this path. This path can be a river or it can be metal structures on the ground. TED Z
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#91
05-15-2009, 01:32 PM
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agreed
I agree with Jeff. No need for you to apologize John. You are not the one making false accusations, and using a past tense of fraudulent acts, in a private email to a friend. (I am still trying to understand that one?)
It has also been protested to me that a private email was allowed to be shared on the board. For the record- Anytime I can help our Net54 family by breaking one of my rules I will gladly take the heat. Each situation is different and I treat them that way. I was also told by the person that protested that a lawyer had contacted them about the email issue. I responded that I am quite sure fraud is a criminal act but sharing a private email probably isn't. I also let that person know that I did not personally share the email (though I applaud it) and I am only liable for what I say, as is everyone. best regards
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#92
05-15-2009, 05:23 PM
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In my opinion
This may go against the prevailing view, but I don't like the notion of reproducing private emails, even with good intentions. Not only does it seem to me to violate the privacy of the sender, but it is very easy to misinterpret what is said in such communications or at the very least take them out of context. It IS a rule here for a good reason in my view.
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#93
05-15-2009, 05:52 PM
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Peter, you might have a decent point if it were Elkins who posted the email: clearly Kevin meant for his discussions about committing fraud on Net 54 members to remain private between the two of them. Once Elkins released it to others, what obligation did John have to keep it private? And surely Kevin's stated desire to defraud Net 54 members trumps any privacy interest of his.
Plus I'm sure the many highly trained lawyers who post on Net 54 would be rushing to Kevin's side to file a lawsuit if such a claim existed. But of course we both know that won't happen. Finally, Kevin came on here and gave his explanation so all's well that ends well. I would suggest to Kevin that instead of whining about his private email being splashed here for all to see he should probably come up with a better explanation as to why he felt it appropriate to write about his glee in defrauding Net 54 members -- and his disappointment over not defrauding me.
__________________
http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets Last edited by calvindog; 05-15-2009 at 05:54 PM.
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#94
05-15-2009, 05:54 PM
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to be clear
I don't think there is even a ghost of a legal issue. Whether it is right is another matter.
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#95
05-15-2009, 05:58 PM
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See my paragraph one just above.
__________________
http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets
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#96
05-15-2009, 06:01 PM
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For the record I was asked to be sent this email from Elkins he had Dan McKee forward on his thoughts about something and he just happened to foward on this email to me.
This email was addressed to me not sent under the table....
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#97
05-15-2009, 06:04 PM
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I am sure all of us have said things in emails that, if taken out of context and published on message boards, would not make us look pretty. This is not to excuse Kevin (although I continue to be highly skeptical he actually did anything along the lines he was speaking about) but to make a broader point that I don't think people should publish private emails, even if their intentions are good.
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#98
05-15-2009, 06:05 PM
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I am not condemning John by any means, I understand this is a matter on which people have legitimate differences of opinion, I am merely stating my own.
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#99
05-15-2009, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
__________________
http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets
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#100
05-15-2009, 06:18 PM
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In this particular case, sure, but that doesn't change my view of the wisdom of the rule (which this forum has) against publication.
And I quote Things you can not post about Personal information about people including but not limited to: Phone numbers, addresses, email addresses, etc, unless given permission ...Personal emails should not be posted on the board. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 05-15-2009 at 06:20 PM. Reason: add text of rule
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