Philosophical Trading Question

[Exhibitman]

The fact that you are making unsolicited trade offers means that you've struck out elsewhere in trying to get the card. And if you are making an unsolicited trade offer to someone who we assume knows as much as you do about the scarcity of the issue, I don't think you have any right or reason to expect that the counterparty will leap to make the trade unless you are offering something really good in return. Not the same or incrementally better, but a lot better. Otherwise, don't be surprised if your offer is not highly regarded. When I've been in that position in the past my offers have been very generous...and usually rejected anyway. I've also given in on trades like that when I've been solicited and have had strong seller's remorse afterwards unless I really got a strong trade in return.

You also reference book values. I don't think too many collectors of rare or obscure sets put any stock in book values. FWIW, some collectors don't enjoy haggling and especially not when a mythical book value is used. "Book" values and money are irrelevant to trades of rare cards. If the book value had any reality to it, or if the card was available for sale anywhere, you could go buy the card. Perhaps by trying to "sell" the deal because of the book values you made him decide you were not worth dealing with because your frames of reference are incompatible.

People have many reasons why they don't want to trade a card, as Frank pointed out. Perhaps the player or the pose is a particular favorite. Perhaps the cards offered in return are low priority cards for the counterparty to own. Perhaps he considers the card to be an irreplaceable part of his collection and doesn't know how or when or if he can replace it, so it makes little sense to trade a card he may not be able to replace for a comparable card. Perhaps the other fellow just looks at trades as "gimme two of yours for one of mine" since none of the cards are going to be offered for sale and there is no actual market price for them. My rule of thumb when trying to make a trade of my dupes for a card I need and cannot find on the market is to be generous in my offers precisely because they are duplicates and I don't need them.

Seems to me that if you don't have a card and profess to really want it, and someone has it but seems cool to your offer to trade it, you should expect to trade at a disadvantage on it and to haggle some. That's what I expect when I make an unsolicited trade offer to a fellow collector for something that is really hard to find. Did you counter with anything other than "yours isn't worth what mine is"? If not, your counterparty may have concluded that it wasn't worthwhile to trade with you.

As for the emotional "I really want it and you should give it to me" appeal, that might work with a buddy, someone you know well and have a history with, but I would not expect that to work with a near stranger to me.

Finally, I'd observe that attempting to publicly embarrass the counterparty by posting a complaint about the dealings is probably not the way to get what you want. I'd venture a guess that even if the collector would have taken a lesser trade with you at the end of negotiations had you followed up with something more than "you are being unfair to me", you now stand no chance of making a trade after taking this issue public.

[Writehooks]

As usual, Adam (Exhibitman) has hit the nail on the head. Well stated, sir. There are no hard and fast rules in trading ... and emotional appeals are, well, a waste of time. Just my 2 cents worth.

[whiteymet]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

The fact that you are making unsolicited trade offers means that you've struck out elsewhere in trying to get the card. And if you are making an unsolicited trade offer to someone who we assume knows as much as you do about the scarcity of the issue, I don't think you have any right or reason to expect that the counterparty will leap to make the trade unless you are offering something really good in return. Not the same or incrementally better, but a lot better. Otherwise, don't be surprised if your offer is not highly regarded. When I've been in that position in the past my offers have been very generous...and usually rejected anyway. I've also given in on trades like that when I've been solicited and have had strong seller's remorse afterwards unless I really got a strong trade in return.

You also reference book values. I don't think too many collectors of rare or obscure sets put any stock in book values. FWIW, some collectors don't enjoy haggling and especially not when a mythical book value is used. "Book" values and money are irrelevant to trades of rare cards. If the book value had any reality to it, or if the card was available for sale anywhere, you could go buy the card. Perhaps by trying to "sell" the deal because of the book values you made him decide you were not worth dealing with because your frames of reference are incompatible.

People have many reasons why they don't want to trade a card, as Frank pointed out. Perhaps the player or the pose is a particular favorite. Perhaps the cards offered in return are low priority cards for the counterparty to own. Perhaps he considers the card to be an irreplaceable part of his collection and doesn't know how or when or if he can replace it, so it makes little sense to trade a card he may not be able to replace for a comparable card. Perhaps the other fellow just looks at trades as "gimme two of yours for one of mine" since none of the cards are going to be offered for sale and there is no actual market price for them. My rule of thumb when trying to make a trade of my dupes for a card I need and cannot find on the market is to be generous in my offers precisely because they are duplicates and I don't need them.

Seems to me that if you don't have a card and profess to really want it, and someone has it but seems cool to your offer to trade it, you should expect to trade at a disadvantage on it and to haggle some. That's what I expect when I make an unsolicited trade offer to a fellow collector for something that is really hard to find. Did you counter with anything other than "yours isn't worth what mine is"? If not, your counterparty may have concluded that it wasn't worthwhile to trade with you.

As for the emotional "I really want it and you should give it to me" appeal, that might work with a buddy, someone you know well and have a history with, but I would not expect that to work with a near stranger to me.

Finally, I'd observe that attempting to publicly embarrass the counterparty by posting a complaint about the dealings is probably not the way to get what you want. I'd venture a guess that even if the collector would have taken a lesser trade with you at the end of negotiations had you followed up with something more than "you are being unfair to me", you now stand no chance of making a trade after taking this issue public.

WOW!!

Looks like I touched a nerve!!

I just asked a basic question about collector decency/courtesy/proto call. And now all this......

Where do I start?

At the top I guess.

Paragraph one: Yes it was an unsolicited trade offer. As mentioned, I am working on collecting the set. I am missing the card in question as well as many others. It's not like it is the last card I need and have been looking for 10 years for that one card.

I don't know what the knowledge of the scarcity has to do with it, when we are talking trading cards in the same set where there are no short prints, rarities etc. As I mentioned we were trading apples for apples. If you think your card is worth $1 or $1,000 if you are getting another card from the same set what difference should it make?

As for you stating that I had no reason to expect the counterpart to trade unless I was offering something really good in return, goes back to my asking the question in the first place. If someone has just ONE card in the set ( and assuming Hank Sauer is not his boyhood hero, growing up in Chicago etc. as Frank mentioned, which I do not think is the case here) , and the other person is working on the set, isn't it common collector courtesy to trade the card if values and condition are equal? Why try to extract the proverbial pound of flesh?

Paragraph two: About book values, I agree totally that not too many collectors of rare or obscure sets put any stock in book values. Book values were only mentioned AFTER the reply I received where I was offered his one common card for TWO HOFer's or ONE HOFer and TWO commons. Again, we are talking apples and apples here. How can frame of reference be incompatible if we are talking cards from the same set???

Paragraph three: I have already addressed the issue of the favorite player argument etc. I don't "get" the part about his card being an irreplaceable part of his collection that he would not trade for a comparable card. If the card IS comparable he IS replacing the card in his collection with another card from the set. He remains WHOLE after the trade. I am not asking him to trade me a card for a card from another set. Nor do I understand the gimme two of yours for one of mine reference. Again the market price would be the same for commons in the same set. More for HOFer's. As for not needing my duplicates so I should be more generous since I don't need them... I have since traded with two other "nice" collectors one for one from my dupes. So I do need my dupes.

Paragraph four: I did not profess to REALLY wanting the card. As stated I need this card as well as many others. I did not know the other fellow was "cool to my trade offer" until I received his reply as for what I perceived as trying to take advantage of me. I did not consider a counter because in my eyes his proposal was so over the top. Haggling did not even occur to me because of the egregious offer. If you feel like you are trying to be taken, why try to continue discussions? If after offering him a HOFer for a common did not work, I assumed nothing would.

Paragraph five: I do not believe in any of my postings here or to the other guy did I ever say " I really want it so you should give it to me". If my offering one for one or a HOFer for one gives you that impression I am sorry.

Paragraph six: At no time have I attempted to embarrass anyone. I never mentioned a name or a board "nickname". I only mentioned the cards in question after others on the board asked what they were to better understand the situation. I merely asked a basic question to others here on the board. In looking at the replies, it seems most others, given the same situation would have made the trade. Not that that matters. Just an observation. I felt most true collectors who are in the hobby for enjoyment would feel the same way. As for embarrassing the other guy into the trade, and now being told there was no chance of a trade now, I expected that from the beginning. After the reply asking "for the sky" I knew no trade was possible. Perhaps one day I will have something the other guy wants in trade. I hope I will take the high road. For as they say, what goes around comes around.

Fred

[sportscardpete]

No one HAS to sell a card, no matter how sweet the deal is. Yes, if it is a common player for a HOFer, and the common isn't a rarity, then it would seem that it would be a no brainer for the other party. Like stated above, however, there could be sentimental value. Or they are just looking for a really really nice return. Either way, he didn't do anything wrong...

I have a card of a player that has the same name of my friend, and they both have similar big ears. No way in hell I would give that card up for fair value. Just has sentimental value to me, plus it always gives me a good laugh

[whiteymet]

Originally Posted by sportscardpete

No one HAS to sell a card, no matter how sweet the deal is. Yes, if it is a common player for a HOFer, and the common isn't a rarity, then it would seem that it would be a no brainer for the other party. Like stated above, however, there could be sentimental value. Or they are just looking for a really really nice return. Either way, he didn't do anything wrong...

I have a card of a player that has the same name of my friend, and they both have similar big ears. No way in hell I would give that card up for fair value. Just has sentimental value to me, plus it always gives me a good laugh

Is the card Don Mossi? Talk about big ears!!

[sportscardpete]

Originally Posted by whiteymet

Is the card Don Mossi? Talk about big ears!!

Holy toledo. Just saw a picture of him now. Guy must have had fantastic hearing!

[ruth-gehrig]

Indeed

[FrankWakefield]

Hey Fred, I well understand your trade / no trade scenarios. Some folks here get that, maybe a few don't. I know I once was given a card, unsolicited, through the mail, by a board member who just knew I was after such a card. Once I was given a card that I had offered to buy. And I've given a few cards to folks here when they seemed to have a serious burning desire to collect the card for the card's sake, and not because of value or because they were doing that set registry stuff... I hope a Sauer finds its way to you.

[Exhibitman]

Fred:

Nope, no raw nerves here. I just find your analysis to be disingenuous. Your core argument is that there is something wrong with a collector who will not trade you a card you want on your terms. Sorry, but I don't buy that. I'd never tell a fellow collector what he should want or should be willing to take in trade for one of his cards. They're his cards, not mine, and his reasons for not wanting to make a trade are as valid as my reasons for wanting to make a trade. In my view, it is presumptuous to suggest otherwise.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Fred:

Nope, no raw nerves here. I just find your analysis to be disingenuous. Your core argument is that there is something wrong with a collector who will not trade you a card you want on your terms. Sorry, but I don't buy that. I'd never tell a fellow collector what he should want or should be willing to take in trade for one of his cards. They're his cards, not mine, and his reasons for not wanting to make a trade are as valid as my reasons for wanting to make a trade. In my view, it is presumptuous to suggest otherwise.

The OP never tried to "out" the other collector and he simply was stating what happened and ASKED everyone for their opinion on the matter, not to judge him. And if he did try to "out" the other collector, he never said his name, so why would he care for that matter. For some odd reason a few people here on the board look way too far into these discussions and feel like there are more to it than there actually is. The OP seems like a good guy and isn't looking for anyone to bash this other board member, but would like some advice and insight.

He never said something was wrong with the collector just because he wouldn't sell to him on his terms. You really need to go back and reread his original post. Seems like you interpreted it the way you wanted to and not what it was actually meant for.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

He never said something was wrong with the collector just because he wouldn't sell to him on his terms.

Actually, he did make that assertion, repeatedly:

"if someone is working on a set that you have only one card from, that is a common, would you help out the other guy and trade the card? Forget the HOFer vs common, just the basic idea. Was I expecting too much? I have always tried to help other collectors in sinmilar situations where I could and this seemed like a slam dunk for a quick one for one trade."

--In other words, if the collector is willing to make the trade he is helpful to other collectors. If not, he isn't.

"If someone has just ONE card in the set ( and assuming Hank Sauer is not his boyhood hero, growing up in Chicago etc. as Frank mentioned, which I do not think is the case here) , and the other person is working on the set, isn't it common collector courtesy to trade the card if values and condition are equal? Why try to extract the proverbial pound of flesh?"

--So for not making a trade the other collector is characterized as discourteous and compared to Shylock.

"I have since traded with two other "nice" collectors one for one from my dupes."

--If the other collectors are "nice" for making the trades, the necessary implication is that the other collector is not nice for refusing the trade.

[thekingofclout]

Very good points Adam.

[freakhappy]

Exhibitman, I'm not trying to say that what you are saying is way out of line, but you are stretching a bit here. In your last post, you quoted everything he said and interpreted it in your own way...simply not what the OP was trying to convey.

You're looking way too much into this. Just take it for what it is and move on. I believe we could all look in between the lines on every discussion and make it seem like the way we want it to.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Fred:

Nope, no raw nerves here. I just find your analysis to be disingenuous. Your core argument is that there is something wrong with a collector who will not trade you a card you want on your terms. Sorry, but I don't buy that. I'd never tell a fellow collector what he should want or should be willing to take in trade for one of his cards. They're his cards, not mine, and his reasons for not wanting to make a trade are as valid as my reasons for wanting to make a trade. In my view, it is presumptuous to suggest otherwise.

-1

I completely disagree with this statement. The original poster was looking to find out if what he was asking was so out of line? The large majority, and myself, don't think so.

[David R]

Originally Posted by Leon

-1

I completely disagree with this statement. The original poster was looking to find out if what he was asking was so out of line? The large majority, and myself, don't think so.

- 2

[alanu]

IMHO, when trading, you have to have thick skin. Everyone tends to naturally overvalue their own cards and the first to make an offer is usually at a disadvantage as with most negotiations.

The key is to always keep it civil and respectively decline if not satisfied with the offer and basically agree to disagree.

[sportscardpete]

Originally Posted by alanu

IMHO, when trading, you have to have thick skin. Everyone tends to naturally overvalue their own cards and the first to make an offer is usually at a disadvantage as with most negotiations.

The key is to always keep it civil and respectively decline if not satisfied with the offer and basically agree to disagree.

There is a natural arbitrage in life where you overvalue your own cards and undervalue the other person's card.

Everyone here has a very valid point. I think we should also be proud of ourselves for actually having a mature debate!